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Discussion Starter #43
Just looked at the v6eco diesel engine in a new Ram , could this be a new option for a swap ?
Just looked at the v6eco diesel engine in a new Ram , could this be a new option for a swap ?
Yes good question. Yes we are looking at that engine and the new Colorado baby diesel, they both may work in a JK.

Problem for years with the diesel has been finding one that is USEPA compliant and is small and light enough to make sense.

We finally have some options but there are still challenges. The modern diesels have extensive emission systems that must be brought over, especially exhaust treatment. Secondly is the cost, a good low mileage diesel from a Ram truck can run $9k without the transmission and other components. I have been watching the prices drop but Chrysler is not making millions of them like the LS so prices may not drop too much. The Colorado engine I hear is pretty good and it is made by GM so parts and service should be better.

I was hoping to have a diesel running this year, were going to give it a shot.

FYI we are working on a Camaro LFX engine, the 3.6 DOHC engine with over 300 HP and a 6 speed transmission. Some variants are over 400 HP but we are concerned with the available torque of a small displacement engine, similar to the Pentstar. The LFX is inexpensive right now as we are looking for a low cost solution for the 3.8 JK's to get an additional 100 HP with an excellent 6 speed automatic for a reasonable price. We have an LFX running now, Mitch has integrated the BCM and even the factory instrument cluster so you can get all the OE information, even connect your phone.
 

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If you are looking at diesels, why not the 5.0 Cummins from the Titan? Its a beast of a motor and Cummins was considering starting a crate engine program. The guys from road kill were able to get their hands on one. Obviously they wont be cheap but will be available at least without going to a junk yard...
 

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Sigh.................

I can see that actually getting a consumer level kit into production, with instructions, for a basic LS conversion (my choice would be an LS 3) is not going to be getting the attention it needs. First Gen V motors. Now its diesels and V6s. What next, a hybrid??

I need to just let go of my dream of a 480 hp LS3 crate motor in my JK...................I have to move on. Its not going to happen.

Clearly its your business and your choice, but I can't say I am happy about it. I think you are leaving the do-it-yourself market untapped when it comes to LS conversions.

Perhaps another hemi conversion is the only way to go...........
 

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Discussion Starter #46
Sigh.................

I can see that actually getting a consumer level kit into production, with instructions, for a basic LS conversion (my choice would be an LS 3) is not going to be getting the attention it needs. First Gen V motors. Now its diesels and V6s. What next, a hybrid??

I need to just let go of my dream of a 480 hp LS3 crate motor in my JK...................I have to move on. Its not going to happen.

Clearly its your business and your choice, but I can't say I am happy about it. I think you are leaving the do-it-yourself market untapped when it comes to LS conversions.

Perhaps another hemi conversion is the only way to go...........
? We spent a lot of effort creating our plug and play Gen III kit to support the Gen IV engines including the 480 HP engine.

We are gearing the kit towards the DlY install and we are shipping now.

PM me for special forum pricing.
 

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? We spent a lot of effort creating our plug and play Gen III kit to support the Gen IV engines including the 480 HP engine.

We are gearing the kit towards the DlY install and we are shipping now.

PM me for special forum pricing.
Robbie, I need to see the instructions first before I put an order in. As I think I stated before, I will be pulling the body off in a friends shop. I cannot just tie up his two post for weeks on end. I need to know that the instructions are clear, concise and complete.

When I did my AEV hemi conversion in his shop I was in and out in 5 days. And that included a day chasing a bad ground.

I don't need to be playing phone tag around "where does this plug into". I would expect phone support to be a last resort.

I have wrenched on 3 or 4 hemi conversions. I feel very comfortable with them. But the LS is a completely different animal and marrying it to the JK canbus will take some clear instructions.
 

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I gotta say I never did an engine swap in my life. I've always worked on cars and stuff and built a Model A hotrod but this swap is quite easy. My biggest problems were getting an exhaust set-up and getting the rad hoses to fit the stock radiator. If I were to do it again I'd go with the HD rad right from the get go.

If you have a 2-post lift like I do this would probably be a walk in the park for you.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Robbie, I need to see the instructions first before I put an order in. As I think I stated before, I will be pulling the body off in a friends shop. I cannot just tie up his two post for weeks on end. I need to know that the instructions are clear, concise and complete.

When I did my AEV hemi conversion in his shop I was in and out in 5 days. And that included a day chasing a bad ground.

I don't need to be playing phone tag around "where does this plug into". I would expect phone support to be a last resort.

I have wrenched on 3 or 4 hemi conversions. I feel very comfortable with them. But the LS is a completely different animal and marrying it to the JK canbus will take some clear instructions.
Right instructions are important. In the 8 years we have been doing the LS JK swap the install has evolved faster than the instructions. Over the last 2 years not much has changed as the install has become rationalized so instructions make sense for the DIY install. We do offer basic instructions but they are not detailed.

We have already started on the Gen III kit instructions, both videos and written. Back in 2008/9 we worked on Hemi JK's, living in Vegas it was not for me. I embarked on the LS JK project. It was a challenge and there was nothing out there to help. Countless hours were spent in R&D, many long days and nights. I broke it up into projects, cruise control, AC, PRNDL, etc... I went through a half dozen engine mount designs before settling on the OE hydraulic mounts, they were not easy but are required for AFM engines. Early on we had full functionality but the interface was crude and complex. What's amazing with the current swap is how simple it is, the hard part was making it simple. I think you will be surprised how streamlined the kit is. You can count on one hand the wires that need to be tapped into the vehicle, otherwise it is plug and play. The wire count is down to near OE.

To answer your other concerns needs a little explanation. 8 years ago many said an LS would not work in a JK. When it was apparent it worked very well a lot changed. Many shops that specialized in superchargers and Hemi's wanted in. Performance guys know what the LS is and wanted it. Shop owners came to our shop and purchased kits. A few purchased the kit to backwards engineer it. They picked apart our harnesses and duplicated our brackets and mounts, surf the net, look at what is out there and I think you will agree. Some claim lower cost, others better service or improvements; any way you look at it it affects how we do business. Of coarse we have non competes but you know how that goes, I hate litigation. In fact we may have to go there again.

So we choose to forge on and move forward. When the competition starts to copy your old stuff introduce new stuff to stay ahead. This is one reason of many for the Gen V swap. We are not afraid of innovation and do not pirate anything. It's simple supply and demand. Guys want diesel's and newer engines and if we supply it the demand will be there, it's how we survive.

We also need the Gen V engines for emissions compliance and better mpg. I would like to offer the Gen IV swap forever, we have it rationalized, but we can't; we have to offer more. The competition does not have the development costs when they copy so it places us at a disadvantage.

It's all worth it too me, every time I get in my 09' Rubi with a 6.2 I get a smile. I'm proud of what we have achieved I feel the LS is still the best power option.

You may not understand why we are diversifying our product line but it is important. We could just install Hemi's with someone's kit and be like dozens of other shops fighting for customers. We would rather be known as the innovators where customers come to us since we offer a unique product. The copy cat's will continue and we will move on, it is the nature of the beast.

You can look forward to some innovative JK products from us, I haven't been as excited as I am with the Gen V engines in a while. It's really a step forward for all of us and pretty much making the other options less attractive IMO.

Keep an eye on our YT channel for new instructional videos.
 

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Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
 

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Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Majority would agree the MoTech kit is well-designed and goes together nicely. The response time on inquiries during installation is pretty fair as well. I also commend you for expanding your product offering. However, I do share the same sentiment as nucleophile and with first hand experience.

I had a local shop do my install because of the proximity, my relationship with the owner, and hope to bring in more motor swaps. The installer praised the kit but his exact words were that he would not recommend it because there are no instructions. He followed all the videos online but they are old and on a a 6.2 swap so he guessed a lot and called MoTech a lot (all of which took time). The shop lost interest in becoming a MoTech certified installer as a result.

Something to consider here Robbi if you are growing, expanding new products, and possibly adding staff; consider having your next tech hire spend the first few weeks capturing pictures and notes for a standard or most popular install (I assume 6.0L and 6L80 based on your most common recommendation). You can then turn these into instructions fairly quickly. If you have the pictures and steps documented, it would be relatively cheap to outsource the instructions as well. Alternately, you can outsource the instructions entirely....whatever makes sense for you.

I see the hemi swaps having a competitive advantage over the LS swaps because of the ease of installation and frankly I would like to see MoTech catch up here.
 

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Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Exactly. I applaud the quest to forge into new offerings. I also realize that there are only so many cycles available in your organization. New product development is time intensive and that means writing instructions (boring at best, arduous is more like it) falls to the bottom of the priority list. And that means more waiting for potential customers like me.

Majority would agree the MoTech kit is well-designed and goes together nicely. The response time on inquiries during installation is pretty fair as well. I also commend you for expanding your product offering. However, I do share the same sentiment as nucleophile and with first hand experience.

I had a local shop do my install because of the proximity, my relationship with the owner, and hope to bring in more motor swaps. The installer praised the kit but his exact words were that he would not recommend it because there are no instructions. He followed all the videos online but they are old and on a a 6.2 swap so he guessed a lot and called MoTech a lot (all of which took time). The shop lost interest in becoming a MoTech certified installer as a result.

Something to consider here Robbi if you are growing, expanding new products, and possibly adding staff; consider having your next tech hire spend the first few weeks capturing pictures and notes for a standard or most popular install (I assume 6.0L and 6L80 based on your most common recommendation). You can then turn these into instructions fairly quickly. If you have the pictures and steps documented, it would be relatively cheap to outsource the instructions as well. Alternately, you can outsource the instructions entirely....whatever makes sense for you.

I see the hemi swaps having a competitive advantage over the LS swaps because of the ease of installation and frankly I would like to see MoTech catch up here.
I think you are onto something here. Technical writing is a unique skill set. Contracting out that work could make a lot of sense. There are people who specialize in this area and know how to translate technical, tedious processes into easy to follow instructions via words and pictures.

I am not a big fan of trying to use video for instructional purposes. Generally, way too much focus is on the video and not the information conveyed. One perfect example of this was something I watched recently. A professional mechanic produced a video on replacing a part on a car. Its a nasty job on a good day. He set up a camera and that showed the car on a lift in the background. For each step he came up to the camera and said "now I am going to remove the axle" and then went and did it, showing not a damn thing about HOW to remove the axle!

Now I am sure your team will do better than this. However, I think it takes someone with specific skills to really communicate the key pieces of information.

I don't want to re-start the hemi vs LS debate (I am in your camp on the LS being the better solution) but when you do an AEV hemi swap, you get a complete list of every single thing you need to source from Mopar, down to the nut and bolt level, with part numbers. Then you get a complete set of detailed instructions. You start at step one and finish and step 71. (or whatever) Nothing is left to chance or guessing. From exactly where the motor mounts go to exactly how to fill the cooling system so there is no air in it is covered in the instructions.

I am not saying you have to duplicate what AEV does, but it should be a bench mark as to what is needed to make a consumer level swap kit viable in the marketplace.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Got it. I feel now that we are going to market this for the DIY consumer or shop the of their choice proper instructions are required.

I agree on the videos they can get dated where written instructions can be updated. I have done swaps using most of the available kits out there including Hemi's so I am familiar with what is out there.

I feel the combination of the Gen III kit combined with proper instructions will bring this to a Hemi level install. The Hemi does require mods the LS does not and Visa-Versa.

As far as needs lists and part numbers we have them and will integrate them into a comprehensive set of instructions. We'll get some new videos up to supplement the written instructions since sometimes a picture is better than words.
 

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Got it. I feel now that we are going to market this for the DIY consumer or shop the of their choice proper instructions are required.

I agree on the videos they can get dated where written instructions can be updated. I have done swaps using most of the available kits out there including Hemi's so I am familiar with what is out there.

I feel the combination of the Gen III kit combined with proper instructions will bring this to a Hemi level install. The Hemi does require mods the LS does not and Visa-Versa.

As far as needs lists and part numbers we have them and will integrate them into a comprehensive set of instructions. We'll get some new videos up to supplement the written instructions since sometimes a picture is better than words.
Great news!! Can I get an idea of when this will be completed??
 

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Discussion Starter #56
Very soon, working on them now.

Quick video of the Gen V startup in chassis with body on. We'll have shafts tomorrow and should be driving it this weekend. Heater hoses, intake tube, etc. are just temporary.

Picture of the Gen V drive. We have the offset water pump, alternator, AC compressor, PS pump and vacuum pump. Just like GM we are running 3 separate belts, two are very short 4 grove S-Belts.


For those planning on a LS3 swap here's the drive.


The LS3 fits the JK perfect for a clean install, and it is light.
 

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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
 

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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
same club as i...and multiple mechanic/engineer/jack of all trades friends and family. i want to learn during this so if something happens i might remotely have a clue as to how to diagnose problems
 

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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
same club as i...and multiple mechanic/engineer/jack of all trades friends and family. i want to learn during this so if something happens i might remotely have a clue as to how to diagnose problems
There are multiple reasons to take this project on yourself.

1. Cost. Not only the labor to install the LS but the cost of transportation to and from vegas.

2. Time. Your jeep is not out of pocket for weeks, assuming you have your shit together when you start your conversion.

3. Knowledge. When I did my hemi conversion I never had any trouble with it (save for a failed cat) but I was able to help other people who had problems either during or after their conversion.

4. Pride. Nothing was more satisfying to me than running into a group of wheelers on a trail and getting into a discussion about my hemi conversion. Invariably someone would ask "who did the conversion?" My answer was...............I did.
 

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It's easy to go from one drive to the other, we will need to supply new hoses and lines.

The Pentstar fan is enough for most applications even with light towing.

Keep an eye out for some extreme cooling options soon.

Do you mean the fan is enough with the stock radiator? Does this require me to send anything in for re-programming? I have EFI live but I don't really know much about programming with it.

Thanks again,
Sean
 
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