[ALASHA]

Having to change out the gauges wouldn't bother me. But losing whatever else in the Jeep that needs to see a happy running motor to function properly would bother me.

If you buy an LS with the factory ECU and wiring, you are essentially turning it into a stand alone. Everything motor wise will still function.

 

[abendx]

I remember reading some people getting away under 10K but that is really hard for me to believe. I guess it all depends on the donor engine/trans costs.

Abendx - are you going to keep your "JK" smog legal? If not, your cheapest route is to gut the thing, and just do a stand alone LS. New gauges etc... ala River Raider's project Phoenix. That way no chrysler head aches and you dont have to buy a swap kit.

Really not in the budget... but we'll see. Smog legal is the actual goal... we'll see if that is the actual result. I am sure I could dirty smog still, but would really like to keep it on the up and up. If it will not smog, there is no reason other than money to not do exactly what you are suggesting!! I like it.

I recall a buddy telling me his hemi swap was about 12k. This was a few years back... AEV was the only game in town them I believe and he said something about being able to do it for less now that there was competition with the kits.

 

[MoTech]

If you buy an LS with the factory ECU and wiring, you are essentially turning it into a stand alone. Everything motor wise will still function.

There are certain systems like ESP, HVAC (air conditioning), smart charging, DIC and more that depend on proper powertrain integration. Sure you could put a donor engine in and lose that level of functionality; install some aftermarket gauges and be happy with essentially a 2009 CJ if that's what your after.

Our efforts to seemlessly integrate the LS with the JK(and keep proper emissions) is going the next level. Just for an example; shortly we will be using the original VFD (vacuum Flourscent Display) to indicate the Cruise Control on/off indicator and CEL(check engine light) for the GM powertrain. Once implemented there will be no visual difference between our interior and stock. The small LED indicator we used on the CC switch worked great(I actually like it better than the stock indicator); however our goal is to make our swap appear and function just like it came from the factory.

Getting back to the thread functionality is great, but so is affordability. I have customers come in dissapointed with their 3.8 but can't quite afford(or justify) a V8 swap, so....I know where there at.

I feel there is a market segment of the JK'ers being left out. They either spend $5-8k on a supercharger or step up to $12-15k for V8 swap with a lot of labor.

After 5 years of development our kit will be moving on to a new level of integration. Through the use of smart electronics we have eliminated most of the costly redundent hardware associated with this swap. Each of our kits currently has about 26 hours labor in it and this does not include tech support. The steel, aluminum, wires, connectors, etc. we use are all the best, no Chinese Delphi rip offs. So it adds up on our side to produce this kit. We use fire sleeve and friction tape on our harnesses, no split loom or vinyl. So we can't(and won't) make it cheaper; however, we can reduce the parts count through electronics.

For the guy who demands a new crate engine/trans with all the options - OE cruise control, Atlas, electronic shift, HD aluminum radiator, etc. $20k+ is not unreasonable and still a good value for money. When you consider shop overhead, payroll, insurance, taxes, etc this must be factored in the price.

On the other end is the guy(or girl) who wants to get into a V8 JK on their budget, collage student or retiree. They want to enjoy the sound, torque, reliability and longevity of a real V8. No more whining V6 reving to the moon on road trips.

So I would appreciate some feedback here. An iron Gen IV 4.8 or 5.3 runs $1,000 or less and will power a JKUR with style. A used 6l80, again about $1,000, maybe a little more. With no fancy options or even a HD radiator(not needed with most 5.3 swaps) I feel the do it yourselfer can be into a LS V8 swap for a similar price point to a supercharger, plus some additional labor.

We would offer a bare bones kit with our new technology to get the LS in your JK and keep most systems functional. The kit will come with the usual frame/engine mounts, trans mounts, harnesses, electronics, etc.

I know there are similar options for an affordable Hemi swap; however, GM engines are readily available, more affordable and better supported by the aftermarket.

Our new electronics are a little bit down the road, most of the R & D has been done and now we need to package and produce it.

We have led the way with the LS in a JK for years. After my butt has driven close to 100,000 miles in LS JK's I feel it is the best powertrain for the Jk bar none. Based on feedback from you guys I will persue this low cost kit option using MoTech's technology so more of you can have real V8 power at an affordable price. I don't have a price on the affordable kit yet, I need to crunch some numbers.

 

[ALASHA]

Motech,

Just to clear, what I mentioned was not intended as a stab at you.

I dont know if you have seen Abendx's latest pictures of his JK because in my opinion it might as well be considered a buggy or damn close to one. I am basing this assumption on the amount of "fender trimming" that has happened and since my original post, Abendx has expressed that he wishes to keep it smog legal so my idea no longer applies in his case.

Regardless, the concept remains sound. I tried to make it deliberately clear that if you OK with eliminating all of the JK electronics, then you can essentially swap an LS as a stand alone and you can run something like a painless wiring harness to run all of the aux systems. This turns the JK into the equivalent of a buggy from an electronics standpoint but I think its the cheapest way of doing a swap which was the question asked.

If you do make a low cost swap kit, then yes that may change things.

As for your swap kit, from the research I have done thus far, it does seem to be the nicest. Small details still irk me like the secondary check engine light but since you are improving that feature as well, I look forward to seeing how much further the swap progresses.

In short, I like your swap and didnt try to take a shot at it. I was simply pointing out what I think the cheapest way to go to is in regards to a swap.

 

[Co4Lo]

Regardless, the concept remains sound. I tried to make it deliberately clear that if you OK with eliminating all of the JK electronics, then you can essentially swap an LS as a stand alone and you can run something like a painless wiring harness to run all of the aux systems. This turns the JK into the equivalent of a buggy from an electronics standpoint but I think its the cheapest way of doing a swap which was the question asked.

Well said. This is exactly what I had planned for that JKU body/frame I bought a while back. Good tech.

 

[abendx]

For my case, if I did a swap... the closer I could get to ALASHA's minimalist swap and still keep her smogable would be best. I care not for most of the electronics in the JK.

As pointed out... I am not the standard customer.

In the end... if she has issues smogging, I'll eventually do something like ALASHA has outlined.

 

[Co4Lo]

Do some states have smog only, and if it passes the sniffer, you're good to go...regardless of emissions components, variance in make/year of engine, etc?

I know in Colorado, my 6.7 Cummins passed the "smog" sniffer test, even with the DPF and EGR systems deleted. So it burns clean enough... but it failed "visual inspection" because I tampered with it. Therefore receiving a FAIL.

 

[sbindley]

Right, many good options and also great that there are more V8 choices that are becoming more reasonable.

For me, I'm going with a new (0 miles) 5.7 Hemi VVT (less than 3K miles on it), a low mileage auto tranny to replace the stock 6-speed and all the hardware needed to make it runs better than stock - including all gauge functions and dash lights, A/C, cruise, etc. No CELs, overheating or emissions issues. It will be as if I checked the Hemi box on the order form, except I am adding a CAI, custom headers, cats and exhaust and also a custom tune to exceed hp and drivability compared to the same 5.7 stock.

Anyway, only news here is that there is another shop doing these and they are proud to put their work alongside anyone else out there, including price and quality. I'll be the guinea pig for this forum and report progress, good or bad.

Looking forward to sharing with those interested. I'm not new to engine swaps, and this one is mild compared to the last:

Edelbrock Supercharged LS3 Solstice Coupe - YouTube

My Jeep won't go in for another month, so won't have much to report until then.

Thanks for the discussion everyone.

 

[mschaffer66]

So I would appreciate some feedback here. An iron Gen IV 4.8 or 5.3 runs $1,000 or less and will power a JKUR with style. A used 6l80, again about $1,000, maybe a little more. With no fancy options or even a HD radiator(not needed with most 5.3 swaps) I feel the do it yourselfer can be into a LS V8 swap for a similar price point to a supercharger, plus some additional labor.

Personally, I think if the "Basic Builder" kit was more in the $3000 price range it would be a much more palatable concept. I don't know what would have to be sacrificed to get that though.

I :lol: at your point of having a 2009 CJ because that is the farthest end of the spectrum, just as your kit is on the other end. I think there are a lot of us, maybe I'm wrong, that would be happy with a middle ground.

I fully understand that just like anything else there are hard costs, overhead, R&D costs, etc... that drive that price point.

 

[MoTech]

All states are under USEPA rules which are pretty strict. What differs greatly is enforcement.

Most areas that do testing either do an OBD II scan test to look for dtc's and monitors; or, a two speed (idle and 2,500 rpm) test for 2 or 3 gasses. CA does both.

Generally there are 3 ways to fail a two speed test - numbers (HC, CO and NOx), tampering and visible smoke (which is a joke on diesels).

Using the correct year engine with the correct hardware/software you can pass an emissions test even if your JK is stripped down. Not so in some countries like Australia where the ESP functions must work.

We have supported a few of these minimal swaps with mounts ,etc. In fact we did one with Poison Spyder and now one with Genright.

 

[Audiodogg]

The idea of a minimalist swap is great for many people who have base model JKs. My fiancee bought her 2010 JK with no accessories or power options at all. It's bare bone manual everything except for the engine electronics and that's it. Now I can go get a 5.3 or 6L LS plus tranny for around $1000 and use that wiring harness and new gauges and be done with it. Of course it'd be like an old school swap, but we have no electronics to keep in take so it doesn't really matter to us. A new engine, tranny, t/c and we're off to the races and it'd be around $5000 for all that installed.

So if you guys are able to offer a minimalist kit approach to an LS swap I think that would be great for the many people who have JKs that don't have much for electronics in them and don't require all the fancy stuff :bounce: A lot of people would get that swap done vs a supercharger and it'd kill to S/C market if people knew there was a kit priced accordingly, especially for the DIY mechanics out there. I'd rather spend $5gs on a swap and spend 2 days doing that vs $5gs on a S/C and spend a day doing it. There's no replacement for displacement and the GM engines own Chrysler engines in terms of price and reliability.

 

[mschaffer66]

We have supported a few of these minimal swaps with mounts ,etc. In fact we did one with Poison Spyder and now one with Genright.

Maybe this is asking you to tip your hand a little too much, but what exactly in the JK cares about what the engine/trans are doing?

We know that you can run a standalone Gen IV/6L80E.

I get that obviously the gauges will be non functioning, the DIC will be useless, AC is kind of a big hit(maybe there is a simple solution for that), but what else...

Will the headlights still work right? Will the turn signals function? Will my remote keyless entry still unlock the vehicle? Would you need to run a separate key switch? Or has all of that stuff become no different than your mouse and keyboard and no longer "hard wired"?

Like I said, I would imagine there is a decent sized market of guys, like those all doing junkyard 1 ton swaps, that can wrap their head around a $5k all in simplified, bare bones V8 swap.

 

[mschaffer66]

So if you guys are able to offer a minimalist kit approach to an LS swap I think that would be great for the many people who have JKs that don't have much for electronics in them and don't require all the fancy stuff :bounce: A lot of people would get that swap done vs a supercharger and it'd kill to S/C market if people knew there was a kit priced accordingly, especially for the DIY mechanics out there. I'd rather spend $5gs on a swap and spend 2 days doing that vs $5gs on a S/C and spend a day doing it. There's no replacement for displacement and the GM engines own Chrysler engines in terms of price and reliability.

Exactly.

Put $5k into some sort of forced induction for a motor that acceptably eats a quart of oil every thousand miles in front of a trans that is minimal for its job stock. Or put $5k into an engine/trans that was designed for the abuse people will want to throw at it.

 

[MoTech]

Maybe this is asking you to tip your hand a little too much, but what exactly in the JK cares about what the engine/trans are doing?

We know that you can run a standalone Gen IV/6L80E.

I get that obviously the gauges will be non functioning, the DIC will be useless, AC is kind of a big hit(maybe there is a simple solution for that), but what else...

Will the headlights still work right? Will the turn signals function? Will my remote keyless entry still unlock the vehicle? Would you need to run a separate key switch? Or has all of that stuff become no different than your mouse and keyboard and no longer "hard wired"?

Like I said, I would imagine there is a decent sized market of guys, like those all doing junkyard 1 ton swaps, that can wrap their head around a $5k all in simplified, bare bones V8 swap.

Well this is a good question, what remains functional? You mentioned a few things. The Jeep ECM must stay in the network or all sorts of things won't work, remote start and security systems included. The dash will light up like a Christmas tree, but that may not matter to you. OE cooling fan control, smart charging, A/C system, ESP, dash instruments, etc will not function without a valid crank signal. In addition we need to synch the cam/crank signal for things like one touch start(hit the key and it cranks till it runs and doesn't grind while looking for the synch).

All these things can use a work around. Run the charging system in limp mode off the GM ECM (Gen IV engines need a seperate module to operate smart charging). Starting system can be tough to figure out since it is can bus driven(on some OS's, on other it will work) but you could install a pushbutton to bypass the circuits. Forget about remote start or one touch start. You could replace the gauges that don't work, you wouldn't have ESP which includes ABS, trailer sway control, brake assisted steering, electronic roll mitigation and more. The a/c is can driven but you could install a toggle on/off switch with the proper cycling and over pressure switches in the lines. Your PRNDL would not work or the reverse lights and neutral saftey functions.

It can and has been done. In the end I think it is far better to work with these systems than work around them if your JK is street driven or subject to inspection. The effort and cost to make these things work by hacking would be similar to the cost of doing it the right way; however, for a JK buggy or hardcore trailered rig, or even a street driven stripped down JK you can consider it.

I will say if you drive a LS 6 speed auto JK done right there is no going back. It cruises on the highway effortlessly at low rpm, acceleration is instant and makes the JK feel light. With everything functional you feel like it is the way it should be, not hacked with extra switches and lights flashing, but that's my personal opinion.

I believe you could keep the headlights, wipers and remote locking functional by leaving the Jeep PCM in place. It's kind of hit and miss though, different JK's have different packages. The manual JK's and JK's with the convienance group work very differently. So while some things may remain functional on one JK it may not on another. In the 12's for example it won't start unless the new TCM is happy. They run the neutral saftey and cooling fan through the TCM so there are no more overheated transmissions. In this case your 12' will not even start without the proper signals or work around.

It gets even more complex but if I see someone drive one of our LS JK's and get out and not even know a swap was done then I have done my job. All that work pays off when it the driver notices nothing odd, or different from a factory vehicle. Ironic all that effort to not be noticed. It's easy to do a swap with extra switches and non functional systems while using a stand alone powertrain. For some that is acceptable, for most of my customers it is not.

 

[mschaffer66]

Well this is a good question

That was a pretty damn good explanation.

I honestly expected something along the lines of you have to pay to find out.

I'm going to hijack a little bit here.

Lets say I get one of your kits, get a 5.3l/6l80E, then want some more power. Maybe I do some motor work, maybe I do a blower. How does the aftermarket tuning required affect the system? Do I go to you, do I go to an LS guy, do I go to a Mopar guy?

 

[MoTech]

We supply the 5.3 tune unlocked with VATS removed with a completely stock calibration, this way it's emissions compliant.

One of the great things with the LS swap is that anything the aftermarket offers will work. Blowers, tuners, intakes, etc. Anyone can program the GM ECM, even the dealer. Unlike a Hemi or 3.8 SC the LS calibration is pure, no patches or mods that would make you have to come back to me. Heck a lot of my customers buy EFI Live or HPTuners and tune their own JK, there is no limitations like the Jeep ECM. With EFI Live you could carry a Flashscan that has multiple tunes, rock crawl, performance, mpg, etc, then upload the tunes on the road in about 45 seconds.

Once the donor engine is established, say a 2011 Silverado 5.3, virtually anything available to that Silverado is available to you. It will smog as a 2011 Silverado if you are inspected. The cruise control and electronic shifting will also work like a Silverado( better than a Jeep).

 

[mschaffer66]

We supply the 5.3 tune unlocked with VATS removed with a completely stock calibration, this way it's emissions compliant.

One of the great things with the LS swap is that anything the aftermarket offers will work. Blowers, tuners, intakes, etc. Anyone can program the GM ECM, even the dealer. Unlike a Hemi or 3.8 SC the LS calibration is pure, no patches or mods that would make you have to come back to me. Heck a lot of my customers buy EFI Live or HPTuners and tune their own JK, there is no limitations like the Jeep ECM. With EFI Live you could carry a Flashscan that has multiple tunes, rock crawl, performance, mpg, etc, then upload the tunes on the road in about 45 seconds.

Once the donor engine is established, say a 2011 Silverado 5.3, virtually anything available to that Silverado is available to you. It will smog as a 2011 Silverado if you are inspected. The cruise control and electronic shifting will also work like a Silverado( better than a Jeep).

Shit...

I was damn set of half ass cobbling something together and now I'm kinda thinking this might be THE way to go. :lol:

Anyone want to buy a built TJ? I need some V8 funding. :lol:

 

[EMG006]

Anyone want to buy a built TJ? I need some V8 funding. :lol:

Convince Jamie he wants a TJ.

 

[Apt]

This thread makes me want to sell my RIPP and get a Motech. Holy shit guy, great answers. Thanks for your candor and not sounding like a salesman.

 

[ALASHA]

This thread makes me want to sell my RIPP and get a Motech. Holy shit guy, great answers. Thanks for your candor and not sounding like a salesman.

Do it!