[vegasjeep]

It is quite odd why I am writing this letter but I feel it is needed. First this did not happen over night but almost 3 months in the making. I often praise companies when they have a product that works great. When I have a problem I often do not bring it to a forum as I know many companies can not be 100% great all the time. Usually they make it right and you get a correctly made or fitted product.
In the case of My jeep I had MANY MANY problems with this kit. I figured that the buying public needs to know about my Full Traction problems and the company that DOES NOT stand behind a poorly manufactured product.

SO When I purchased my 2008 Jeep Wrangler JK I researched a lot of different lifts on the market. My goals were to have a very capable offroad vehicle while maintaining the onroad ability of my Jeep. Even though this is not my daily driver I end up driving it more then my daily driver. The other thing I wanted was a Jeep that would clear at least 35s and sit level!

After talking with numerous manufactures and vendors I decided to purchase the Full Traction lift 4" Ultimate as well as Riddler Diff covers( more on those later). One Vendor I talked too said "this is what I run on my personal jeep" Thinking they actually used his jeep I would hope that he had put his jeep through the testing process if he was pushing a product so much. I found this not to be the case. SO I purchased the FT 4" Ultimate lift and riddler diffs and all was shipped to me.

I was stoked to finally be lifting the JK.
I got all the parts, took an inventory and was ready to install the parts.

Upon the start of the installation I found that where Full Traction said you would install a 3" bolt they included a 3 1/2" bolt. These bolts were for the front and rear track bars. The front was no big deal being a 1/2" longer then what was required but the rear ended up being a problem later on.

The lift was complete and I though I could start to have a wonderful Jeep to drive as I personally think a bone stock height JK looks crappy.

this is where the fun ended and the problems began.
First I was told I was gonna get a nice 4" level lift with the use of the Heavy Duty Front springs on this kit. If you are looking for a level sitting jeep you will have a jeep with the SAME rake as when it is factory.

I was taking the jeep on a trip the following weekend so I put a couple hundred miles on the jeep over the week and re torqued all the bolts to make sure the trip would be fine. During the week I kept hearing a clunking in both the front and rear of the jeep. I found the culprit on the rear was the 3 1/2" bolt for the rear track bar was coming in contact with the bumpstop. I cut it down to the 3" that the bolt was suppose to be and it too had the same problem. I eventually had to turn the bolt around where the head of the bolt barely cleared the bumpstop provided from from Full Traction. The clunking sound in the front was the Track bar coming in contact with the front diff cover. The diff cover recommended as being the slimest diff cover and would work great on this lift. I ground down the angles of the diff cover, tried to adjust the pinion angle a bit to help with clearance and nothing I did was enough to get it to clear. As you can see it was not just rubbing it was clobbering the diff cover. I could not get it to clear the front Riddler Diff. I still see this diff recommended by vendors as advertised to clear this kit. Either they do not know what they are recommending or I obviously have a bad part in my kit, like many other parts.

The following weekend I went on a 800 mile round trip to southern az and back. Everything seemed great.
My first offroad outing was the following Friday. It was a short trail and thank goodness it was right here in Vegas. It was the start of a long list of problems with the keep all stemming from the Full Traction lift.
During the offroading I started to get a clunking noise. I was unsure of the noise at it was coming from what I though was both the front and the Rear of the Jeep. I would stop, look under neath and could not find anything visibly wrong. This went on for an hour and then a BAD clunk was heard. Well I get out and find that moving the rear Sway bar end links to the front did not work. With the electronic swaybar disconnected they would bind up and causing the swaybar to swing forward. This in turn when the suspension cycles back in folds the link in half. It was a quick trail fix as I just undid the sway bar end links and through them in the jeep, then zip tied the sway bar up and out of the way. I would run the rest of the trail disconnected and the trip home. No big deal. Ill call Full Traction on Monday.

 

[vegasjeep]

While continuing the trail I still got a lot of knocking from both the front and rear of the jeep. We got finished with the trail, I aired up and we all went our ways. I got out to the road put on the brakes on the pavement and realized what the knocking sound was coming from the jeep. My entire front and rear axles were shifting underneath my jeep. EVERY Rubber (or whatever material they used for their bushings) bushing that Full traction uses had cracked and broken apart allowing the control arms to shift over 1 1/2" over the bolt on every end with these bushings. I got it back home pulled the wheels off and took some pics. I was a bit upset to say the least. The lift had less then 900 maybe 1k miles tops on it and this is what I had to deal with?

 

[vegasjeep]

I called Full Traction that Monday and we had a discussion that went much like I had though it would. He had NEVER heard of this problem and I would have to disassemble the jeep, take out the bushings and send them to him. After hanging up I decided this was not going to be acceptable. i have a jeep that has this few of miles and The kit has already had bent sway bar end links, wrong bolts, bumpstops not manufactured correctly, hitting front track bar(which when the stock cover installed it too hit that), and bushings that went out in all the arms.

I am not a member at the other "JK" site as I mentioned where to find a great deal on a jeep that was not a sponsor but I went on there as they do get a lot of JK traffic. I found three other posts where Patrick from full traction had different people complaining about the very thing that I was having trouble with THE BUSHINGS.
SO I sent Full Traction this letter.

I ordered this kit through XXXXXXXXXXXXX after being told and convinced this was the best lift kit I will find for my new JK. This kit was installed roughly 10 days ago. It has less then 1k miles on it and about 30 off road.
This is unacceptable quality from a kit manufacture who claims "Simply stated—We feel our products are the best. Look for the Full-Traction Suspension logo as a mark of quality."
Luckily this kit was installed on my own personal vehicle and not on a customers vehicle. After being left stranded with a vehicle which could no longer reconnect the front sway bar, and could not drive as with every single control arm bushing was broken and had movement it made it impossible to drive even at slow speeds.

At this point after just getting off the phone with Full Traction they do not currently have a fix as he stated neither problem he had NEVER heard happened before( I found numerous people online with the same problems with pics), I would like a full refund as replacing the bushings with new ones of the same material will yield the same results. I do not have the time or the money to rebuild my Jeep every week or 1k miles. Seen as how I put on about 35-40k miles a year it will cost me almost 500 each week to keep my jeep drivable. Not to mention loose a day of my jeep being in the shop for repairs.

Attached is 20 pictures, in the following email I will attach the video.

This prompted a return phone call from Patrick within the same day telling me they had a fix and it will not be a problem to get me taken care of. I was told that he would send me a johnny joint Uniball bushing to replace the bushings that went bad. Since each end of the control arm was threaded for them already.
At this point I figured we were through the bad control arm problem and maybe this could get better. I was told they would go out the same day which they did not. I did call the next day for a tracking number as I was anxious to get this back on the road and drivable. I was provided a tracking number later that same day. The bushings did show up two days later.( a lot better then the kid who has been promised FOUR yes FOUR times by Patrick that his replacement bushings are going out today and it has been over 6 weeks) oddly enough I printed out the entire thread for proof of others with the same problem and now the thread is deleted. Full traction are more regulars over there then on here.
UPS showed up and I of course like a kid on Christmas was ready to put the Uniball bushings on the jeep. However, I have seen Johnny joints before and these were no Johnny joints. They were definitely a cheap copy of a johnny joint. So much so that before installation I found they would have to be modified to make them stay lubed.
Here is the bushing that I got and was told a Johnny joint was on its way.

Here is the problem I found before installation

Once installed both halves would be squished so tight that no lube from the zerk fitting would ever make it to the uniball. It would never get lubed. These had to be made by the same cheap company who had made those high quality first rubber type bushings. And they are! A company called Summit Machine makes Full tractions bushings. Or from what I can tell. If you are ordering a lift kit make sue you stay away from ANY kit running ANY of their bushings.
It was evident I would at the very least have to drill some holes into the new bushing halves to allow grease to make it to the center of the uniball.

I installed the new uniballs and knew that I would still have problems. With the two halves bottoming out before the proper preload was set on the spanner nut you would have a uniball to loose in the outer halves and a sloppy ride with premature wear.
Well this is EXACTLY what I had. A crappy ride that felt as though the jeep was all over the place. Not to mention I still had the problems with the track bar, end links, and a new problem that arises.
When I reinstalled the control arms I had installed the quick disconnects that came with the kit for non rubicon models without the electronic sway bar.

These were a tad bit longer then the factory rears that were to be moved to the front but no where near as long as other companies disconnects or replacement end links included in the JK kits.
I had another trail I was going to do and once again I could not make it through the trail. The swaybar end link folded over the Tierod again and I had to drive home disconnected.

 

[vegasjeep]

I got it home and parked it in the garage. The following morning I woke up to what I feel was the worse thing to have happened yet. I know hard to believe with all the troubles but it got worse. I had fluid behind my tire on the front on the ground. I did the dip test and it was oily. It was break fluid. While most manufactures on their 4" kits use replacement stainless brake lines the Full Traction kit uses a relocation bracket. This bracket does not properly relocate the brakeline causing the factory brake line to rip apart where the rubber meets the metal formed piece causing a leak.
This is when I decided enough was enough. I still had 3 more factory brake lines on the jeep that were mounted with the same bracket. My jeep had around 1100 miles on it.

I then sent Patrick at Full Traction this letter.

July 22, 2008
Patrick
Full Traction
6951 McDivitt Dr.
Bakersfield, Ca 93313



Dear Patrick,

I received the new Uniball bushings you supplied me to replace your destroyed factory bushings and got them installed. the install went fairly smooth but getting rid of the urethane on one end of the control arm that you as well as many others use is not a great idea. After talking with you and many others the reason Urethane is retained on one end of the control arm is to retain a nice ride. Getting rid of that now has sacrificed the on road ride.
After getting everything back assembled I now have another problem that needs fixing. A ripped front Rubber Brake Line. I now have to replace the front and probably rear brake lines as retaining the factory brake lines like Full Traction does with this kit is not a viable option as they extend to long and break.
It is my experience that this Full Traction 4” Ultimate kit for the 4 door JK was not properly designed, researched and tested before release. Using this kit as it was designed leads to a catastrophic failure ending our outings early EVERY time.
To date with less then 1k miles on the kit we have replaced all Lower supplied bushings on the arms as they had all failed. The rear uppers have also oblonged out and need replacing. The front brake lines need replaced now with longer ones (a HUGE safety issue) and the rears are suffereing from the same problem. I am aware that most other 4” kits on the market include longer extended brake lines as they have performed proper research and testing to know that a relocation bracket is not sufficient for the JK when using max travel. The front track bar does not clear the front differential housing until the front arms were 1/4” shorter then the factory arms. This is the opposite of what should be happening with replacing the arms. Because of this my 35” tires are touching the rear of the fender openings at full flex which is a smaller tire then what is advertised to work on this kit as you sell this kit to clear a 37” tire. After looking at other kits on the market their adjustable track bars have a much different design on them.
A number of the bolts included were to long and needed to be shortened after I had installed the kit as they had clearance issues with other supplied parts of your kit. Once again this would have not been issue with proper testing of this suspension kit.
I have concluded that this kit was not ready to be put on the market for sale as it is. It is incomplete, not properly designed, and has caused to potentially fatal problems while driving the vehicle which has not even seen its first oil change yet.
All of this does not include the squeaking that this kit suffers from. You will notice by my hundreds of install pictures available on the net that this kit was properly installed and lubed before installation. With the hundreds of squeaking complaints around the Jeep forums another flaw in the design of this kit in the quality and composite of the bushings. The same bushings that have already failed and continue to fail on me.
As you know and others have already experienced in your directions you instruct to move the rear sway bar end links to the front. This will work under normal driving conditions but once the sway bar is disconnected electronically you end up with a bend sway bar end link and a gouged up drag link. The proper way to fix this is supply a proper length end link like other reputable companies have done.
The advertised height of this kit is also an issue. After being told it would support a front HD bumper and winch without a problem I have now lost the 4” advertised height. In fact I have lost over 2” of height since first installed.
At this point it is obvious that your company has sold an incomplete poorly designed kit and I would like a full refund. I have numerous detailed photos to catalog the problems encountered with this kit from its first install to its numerous repairs in under 3 weeks of ownership.
I am demanding a full refund on this kit. Although it was not ordered directly from you it was dropped shipped directly from you. As a reputable company I would hope that you would credit XXXXXXXXXXXXXX and allow us to part ways peacefully.

I await your response VIA EMAIL as to how you would like to get me my refund on this kit.

Sincerely yours,

I never received a return call from Full Traction. I did however receive a return call from XXXXXXXXXXX who was a bit upset but did say he would try to work with me. They said in no means would They EVER give me me my money back. I thought this may still get resolved yet. After hanging up the phone with Them and thinking about what they wanted me to do it was just plain stupid. They wanted me to ship my track bar for inspection and then they could compare it to one that they have and then send it to Full traction for them to look at it. Well every piece of my lift would have to be removed as the track bar, relocation brackets, control arms, all had problems... That means I would be out over 100 bucks to ship the kit, the time to disassemble and reinstall the kit, and the time I would be down without a jeep. It was clear that EVERY part of this kit was not working and so I decided this was not a good option. I would be without a jeep for over a month.

SO I removed the entire kit and shipped it back. This has been the worst suspension kit I have EVER installed on any of my own personal vehicles. I have used kits from Giant Suspension, Fabtech, Rockkrawler, Pro Comp, Donahoe, Rancho, and POly Performance. I am sure I have missed a couple in there. By far this kit had more problems then all the other kits combined!!! Not only is this going to cause grief to anyone who purchases one of these kits it will also cost you time and money. I hope you have a second vehicle to drive while you work out the problems!

I installed a Poly Performance Stage III Synergy suspension kit with HD tie rod and Front and Rear adjustable trac bars. This kit has been flawless. I currently have more then 8000 miles on my jeep and I have had not one other issue. The kit flexes better then the Full Traction Kit does, provides a great drive with NO bumpsteer do to not using a drop pitman arm design steering.
I would highly recommend Poly Performance and anything for a JK they make.Not to mention, their arms are fully adjustable while stil bolted up on BOTH ends. No need to disassemble your jeep every time you need to make an adjustment.

Other great companies that have treated me right are

Bestop
Off Road Evolution
Walker Evans
Warn
Red Rock Fab
Red Rock 4X4
Toyo Tires
JE Reel Driveshafts
Superior Gear
Mastercraft Seats
Treks or T&T Customs
AEV
WInchline.com
Kilby
KC Hi-lites
Powetank

If I missed someone I sincerely apologize!

 

[Grant211]

one word "DAYUM"

 

[ripsnort88]

for what it's worth, Black Diamond was a good company to deal with while i was installing my 3" kit. i've had absolutely no problems from my lift and have zero regrets. it sure sucks that you had to go through all that b.s. from a company that should have their sh!t together. when customers start to talk, the general public listens. hopefully Full Traction and eddie will have a long slow demise.

 

[StubEXrube]

So, you "removed the entire kit and sent it back" ? Did you have to pick up the ship cost to send it back or did FT? Also...are they going to (or have they) refund your money? Very interested what the end result was on their end.

Since you finally have a great and proven lift on your jeep, you deserve to-

WHEEL IT AND ENJOY!

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[vegasjeep]

So, you "removed the entire kit and sent it back" ? Did you have to pick up the ship cost to send it back or did FT? Also...are they going to (or have they) refund your money? Very interested what the end result was on their end.

Since you finally have a great and proven lift on your jeep, you deserve to-

WHEEL IT AND ENJOY!

Thanks for sharing your story.

well the kit was removed on my dime and shipped back. It cost me over $150 dollars to ship the entire kit. The kit was refused and ups brought it back to me. So I will have to pay to ship it again to get this resolved. I dissputed the charge and we will see the result some day. Either way I'll be out over $300 to ship the kit back.

 

[RotorHead]

Sorry for all of the troubles you've had Vegas. It really sucks when you have to deal with all of these kinds of problems right out of the box. It makes it even worse when the company won't stand behind their products.

Keep up the good fight.

 

[vegasjeep]

Sorry for all of the troubles you've had Vegas. It really sucks when you have to deal with all of these kinds of problems right out of the box. It makes it even worse when the company won't stand behind their products.

Keep up the good fight.

life goes on...

Get out here to go wheeling...

 

[Big A]

Since your in Vegas, And they are in Bakersfield, I would take this to them personally...I hate crooks and bad business practices. They make it even harder for the honest companies to make a living...issed:

 

[mcnaught6]

i hope you posted this in more than one forum.....jeepforum.com, jeepsunlimited.com (it will probably get deleted from JU), jkboard, rubiconownersforum.....

 

[Guest]

I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this, unbelievable!!!

I almost went with a FT lift and I’m so happy I didn’t. I’d take them to small claims court in Vegas. It will be up to them to fight it and because they are out of state very costly for them should they even try. With that much documentation you should easily win.

I’ve run 24 trails (including 5 rated trails like Pritchett in Moab) with my Poly Synergy III lift this year and it’s been flawless. I’ve bashed the control arms on rocks and other than some rock rash they’ve held up great. All I’ve had to do is keep it nice and lubed up and I have zero squeaks and it rides like new still. I’m a very happy customer.

 

[a plumber]

I’m sorry you’ve had to go through this, unbelievable!!!

I almost went with a FT lift and I’m so happy I didn’t. I’d take them to small claims court in Vegas. It will be up to them to fight it and because they are out of state very costly for them should they even try. With that much documentation you should easily win.

I’ve run 24 trails (including 5 rated trails like Pritchett in Moab) with my Poly Synergy III lift this year and it’s been flawless. I’ve bashed the control arms on rocks and other than some rock rash they’ve held up great. All I’ve had to do is keep it nice and lubed up and I have zero squeaks and it rides like new still. I’m a very happy customer.

I don't know if i would call what you do "wheeling"




On another note I have been running the RE kit and i love it,13k miles on it and no problems, you need to post this around and let it be known

 

[Guest]

I don't know if i would call what you do "wheeling"

I’ve still yet to conquer the “Park Meadows” trail with you this season. I may give it a shot around the week of December 25th if you’re up to showing a newbie the ropes

 

[lbh]

I think this is a perfect example of why I have continued to say, "the customer service you get from the manufacturer is just as important as the quality of the components." I have expierence with both companies you mentioned and can say that the Poly Performance expierence is hands down the better way to go. Everytime i have called Poly I get awesome service and information. I have the same set up you do and love it. Good luck with the refund! Further, the vendor you purchased the system from is no doubt in the FT pockets, just like the crappy "other" forum is. I am still amazed that companies can treat people this way and stay is business.

 

[Hilldweller]

I’d take them to small claims court in Vegas. It will be up to them to fight it and because they are out of state very costly for them should they even try. With that much documentation you should easily win.

When a company deals in interstate commerce, the Federal Trade Commission is the entity to use. VG has certain rights granted under recent e-commerce legislation enacted by Joe Barton (R-TX), Billy Tauzin (R-LA), and Tom Bliley (R-VA).
It is in addition to Magnusson-Moss warranty provisions of implied merchantability.

 

[Guest]

When a company deals in interstate commerce, the Federal Trade Commission is the entity to use. VG has certain rights granted under recent e-commerce legislation enacted by Joe Barton (R-TX), Billy Tauzin (R-LA), and Tom Bliley (R-VA).
It is in addition to Magnusson-Moss warranty provisions of implied merchantability.

I was hoping someone would chime in with better information on legal options. That’s good to know.

 

[vegasjeep]

I was hoping someone would chime in with better information on legal options. That’s good to know.

I have a buddy who moved to Denver who writes for Off-road.com

am thinking I need to pay him a visit so we can all go wheeling.

 

[Mudjocky]

The diff cover was not stock...so I'm sure if you had a stock cover the issue would be fine. As for the longer bolt and rear bump stops..the stops are slotted to allow about 1/8" of movement...I had the same problem. I adjusted the extensions and lengthened the lower arms about 3 threads and the problem solved. The bushings splitting...looks to me you put too much pressure on them when you buttoned up the bolts. Did you put them hand tight...then put weight on it and then torque them? Not saying your not having any issues but being in the industry for a number of years most of your issues look to be fixable or install error. I have the exact same kit with no issues other than I stated.

Poly makes a nice kit...just alittle too rich for my blood.