Wiring 110/220 plugs - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 09-30-2018, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Wiring 110/220 plugs

First off, I'm a electrical noob. With that being said, I'm sure you all will tell me not to do this job. I want to add some additional plugs in my garage. Whoever wired it, 60 years ago, only allotted for 2 wall plugs. What a cheap ass.

I want to add a couple extra 110 plugs and more importantly a 220. I'm toying with getting a entry stick machine. I've done some welding, but not on high stress parts. I did pipe fence building, so the most it would have is a large cow leaning against it.

I have a sub-panel in the garage that came from the main panel in the house. From what I can tell it does have 220 running to it. I'll grab a few pictures tomorrow.



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post #2 of 14 Old 09-30-2018, 06:50 PM
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Call an electrician.

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post #3 of 14 Old 09-30-2018, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treader View Post
First off, I'm a electrical noob. With that being said, I'm sure you all will tell me not to do this job. I want to add some additional plugs in my garage. Whoever wired it, 60 years ago, only allotted for 2 wall plugs. What a cheap ass.
Don't be such a democrat. It's only electricity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treader View Post
I want to add a couple extra 110 plugs and more importantly a 220. I'm toying with getting a entry stick machine. I've done some welding, but not on high stress parts. I did pipe fence building, so the most it would have is a large cow leaning against it.
Before I cut, orange peeled and welded about 1000' feet of pipe fence, I did not know how to stick weld either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treader View Post
I have a sub-panel in the garage that came from the main panel in the house. From what I can tell it does have 220 running to it. I'll grab a few pictures tomorrow.
Let us know what kind of line feeds the panel and what the panel is rated for.
The main breaker up top (or breaker feeding the panel) will give you a clue as to what is feeding the panel. The panel door will let you know what the panel supports.

While you work on that, you can start reading about voltage drop and look up your conductor size requirements for your runs to outlets. I use this often.

I've added electrical to many a garage and these are the things I've learned:

- Run 20 amp circuits + receptacles instead of 15 amps.
- Try and run multiple circuits to alternating receptacles so if you trip one, you don't lose power to all receptacles
- Place receptacles 50" from the floor so you can lean a 4x8 on the wall and still plug stuff in
- Run receptacles every 18-24" (whatever your stud spacing allows) down the wall
- Run one receptacle 24" from the ceiling on each wall (these come in handy for neon signs or electric clocks).
- Wrestling with Romex larger than #10 is a bitch - try THHN in a conduit for luxurious smooth sliding.
- Run the largest 240v circuit as you can that way you can run a real air compressor or a welder.
- Take the time to secure your wire so it can pass a "pull test".
- Use nail plates to protect studs that have wire passing thru.
- Use the pigtail wiring method for wiring receptacles - see attached.
- Use screw terminals, not push terminals. They will only break your heart.
- When you run your 240v receptacle for your welder, you will most likely be using the old style 3 prong connector that only runs 2x hot and 1x ground. I've seen a lot of installs where the neutral in 6/3 is used as the ground, which is what I've always done. The correct way is to use the bare ground, unless you are dealing with larger conductors for voltage drop (another discussion and 50 post revisions). Basically, if you keep your run of 6/3 under 80 feet, you are fine.

I've updated this post a bunch of times and fixed the welder receptacle diagram.
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Last edited by snout; 09-30-2018 at 10:46 PM.
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post #4 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 07:47 AM
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@snout has come through for those of us that have 'welder' on the next item up for purchase ; mui Buenos , mi amigo!

I will throw this in for anyone that is not in their own place or just don't have any additional breaker spots open on their box or whatever.

I recommend ( as do a bunch of the vids commenters) turning-off the juice to the whole panel if you do this, this simply because we can all be careless … but , other than that, sorta useful. Not Snout's 'useful' , but I have it in my favs....


again, the above information is great, dude.







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post #5 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
I recommend ( as do a bunch of the vids commenters) turning-off the juice to the whole panel if you do this
Thanks man. I think what you said is the most important piece of info here.
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post #6 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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Picture 1 is my main panel inside the house. Picture 2/3 are the sub-panel inside the garage. The pool items were recently added to the sub-panel October 2017. The pool company's electrician originally was going to run from the main box, but after looking at the sub, they stated it would be ok.




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post #7 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 10:50 AM
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I will put this on here as it was explained to me by a long time electrician.

connecting a 110 outlet using either 12/2 or 14/2 depending on the amprage of the outlet and breaker.

for connections at the outlet side
Black gets Gold
White gets silver
and
The grounds are Green


Use 12/2 for general 110 outlets as it will support more then is generally needed, if running wires thru conduit always pull single wires not Romex, that is to meet code because of possible heat build up in the wiring in the conduit.
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post #8 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treader View Post


Picture 1 is my main panel inside the house. Picture 2/3 are the sub-panel inside the garage. The pool items were recently added to the sub-panel October 2017. The pool company's electrician originally was going to run from the main box, but after looking at the sub, they stated it would be ok.




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Looks like your sub is fed by 60 amps of screaming angry pixies.
I can't tell what AWG your feeders are. They look like either #6 or #8.
You can for sure run a couple 15 or 20 amp single pole breakers.
Running a 50amp double pole breaker would be contingent on the size of that feeder wire and how far it's run to your sub. If those are
#8 wires, you have about ~40' from your main panel to receptacle to work with. #6, you have about ~65' to work with.

If you plan to run an AC225 / tombstone stick welder, I can tell you that for 95% of the welding you would do, the actual amperage would probably be below 30 amps. An AC225 at full bongo pulls about 40 amps.

You'll probably be limited to running the welder when the pool pump is not running.
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post #9 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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I'm ok with not welding while the pool is on. This is going to be a hobby and not my day job. From using Google Earth, it looks like the run from main to sub is around 70'. That is as the crow flies and not counting the vertical feet.
@snout if I am reading this right. I can install a 50 amp, but I will not pull that amount since the run is too far. Would it be better to install a 40 amp breaker for the welder outlet?

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post #10 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snout View Post
Thanks man. I think what you said is the most important piece of info here.





Hmmm
I'll take that with a ,"thanks" 'tho' will suggest that it is the 2nd most important piece of info here....this contains the 1st....



"Don't be such a democrat. It's only electricity. "


for creative license I will leave it up to the reader to determine which I consider the more important info out of those two sentences.












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post #11 of 14 Old 10-01-2018, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Treader View Post
I'm ok with not welding while the pool is on. This is going to be a hobby and not my day job. From using Google Earth, it looks like the run from main to sub is around 70'. That is as the crow flies and not counting the vertical feet.
@snout if I am reading this right. I can install a 50 amp, but I will not pull that amount since the run is too far. Would it be better to install a 40 amp breaker for the welder outlet?



thankk you for asking this; I have never had proper forum...hey, get it? - to ask but can't you run a 50 amp breaker for where a 20 amp or 30 amp is called for but it is not possible to attempt to substitute a 40amp breaker where a 50 amp would be called-for.



I mean, we are talking in scientific terms such as "as the crow flies" and," it's just electricity.." ( pardon me usin those comments in context there ,fellas ) so I figure now'd be the darn time to ask.



I have required a 25amp sude in something in some Jeep before but used a 40 amp due to availability issues before.

Does the amount of resistance come into play an make that really stupid to do?

Again, not stealin @Treader 's threader...just think yall could answer that


( fwiw; I have been shocked many,many times in my life. I dont like it. Regardless of feelin better or black leather....)



EDIT: I am also not goofin around; I wanna know these similar things. I would have suggested that whatever is on the lower right side (garage door and lights? )opposite the pool would be where I would run a double pole, 50 breaker if the distance permitted in Treaders scenario

I was gonna do that bsed on that video I posted and a double pole sounded more powerful than a single pole.



I had no idea snout knew this much about the 'lectricity









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Last edited by j3ff3ry_j33p; 10-01-2018 at 05:01 PM.
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post #12 of 14 Old 10-02-2018, 05:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleophile View Post
Ok, I am going on the assumption that you are serious and this isn't some kind of joke that I am missing.

The size of the breaker is determined by the ability of the wire, or the device connected to it, to handle the current draw SAFELY. The breaker's job is to keep things from catching on fire. So if you use a 50A breaker on a circuit that can only safely handle 30A, then you are inviting something to overheat and catch fire. Same goes for the device on the end of it. If it is designed to only handle up to 30A but you put a 50A breaker in, and something happens that causes it to draw more current, (like a towel got sucked into the pool filter) then the device could erupt into flames.

Same thing applies in your Jeep. The engineers selected a fuse rating based on the capacity of the actual wire in the circuit or the device that is being powered. Substituting a higher value fuse, 25A instead of 15A just negates the very reason the fuse is in the circuit in the first place! For your safety and those in your vehicle, I would recommend that you replace that 25A fuse with the correct, factory specified fuse size.

Similarly, putting a 50A breaker (resettable fuse) in where a 30A fuse SHOULD be installed is just asking for your house to burn down.

And to completely answer your question, yes you can put a 40A breaker in a circuit rated for 50A. It actually gives you some additional safety margin before things go to shit. Now the breaker may trip all too often, but at least your house won't burn down!



No.
I was serious.

I do love however that I have sorta impressed a general chaos/unpredictability in my near constant sarcasm and online personality traits...


I honestly wnted some clarification. Thanks, man .




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post #13 of 14 Old 10-02-2018, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your wisdom...or sarcasm...or just relative uncertainty of pointless bullshit. Whatever the case, looks to be an easy job to handle.

Definitely don't want my garage to burn down. Good part about the garage it is detached. Therefore the house would be safe in case of said burning down.

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post #14 of 14 Old 10-02-2018, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleophile View Post
What is the sub panel powering? It wasn't put in the garage to run two outlets.

My concern would be the 60 year old wiring and the 60 year old sub panel. The NEC (national electrical code) has been updated many times in the last 60 years. Shit that was code no longer is, and for good reason.

I agree that you should call an electrician. I spent 2 days recently fixing what a contractor did in the main panel at my mother's house.

That sub is a CH panel. The CH panel and breaker design is unique and the breakers are considered to be a top quality design. Eaton still makes CH panels and breakers today. I think the panel is just fine. Looks clean and clear of Koala shit.

The conductors feeding the panel look healthy and have colored insulation, which properly ID hots, neutral and ground. The wire itself looks like nylon coated stranded copper. My guess is THHN, which is great. OP can probably get the exacts off the insulation if he peeks close enough.

The Neutral and ground bars are separate, wiring isn't a rats nest. If I had to guess, I would bet the sub panel was installed in the past 30 years.
I think he's probably good to go to power his sex dungeon this weekend.
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