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post #1 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 08:33 PM Thread Starter
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ROTM category definitions

Hi guys,

I wanted to thank everyone for their participation in November's ROTM. It was a lot of fun and there were some really cool prizes too. One thing that did pop up and it has been seen before is the discussion on category definition.
I'd like everyone's input on what the definitions of the Ride of the Month categories are. Stock doesn't seem to be very doable based on the lack of participation in the category. So that needs to be considered for opening up a bit. There isn't much interested in the Heavy Modified category either. I know there are a number of rigs that I've seen here that qualify but some just aren't entered. Maybe revert back to light, medium and heavy mod? Or some other variation to garner more interest across the board?

What would you like to see changed about the definitions to make it better for everyone?

I'd love your feedback.

At the end of the week, I'll throw a poll up with some of the best suggestions and we'll see how it goes.

Remember though, at the end of this, it's still just for fun.
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post #2 of 30 Old 11-26-2012, 09:59 PM
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Like the idea of light, medium, and heavy. It's definitely unfair for stockish rigs with lights and a winch to get thrown in the modified class. I think anyone with an axle swap, even just a PR44, should be in the heavily modified class regardless of tire size. Good thread by the way.

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post #3 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 07:41 AM
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I don't think there needs to be 3 classes. There just arent many people on forums like this with stock rides. I would just have a light and heavy mod categories. There are so many different, yet similar ways to build a rig it's hard to get the categories defined right.

My definition would be

Heavy Mod (any of the following mods)
-Over 3" lift
-Aftermarket axle housing
-Over 37" tires
-Engine swap

Modified (everything else)

Stock class would be eliminated.

Alternatively, you could have classes based soley on tire size. Usually the larger the tires the more modified the rig. So you could have a 33" class, a 35" class and a 37+" class and go that way. Doing that would make it a lot simpler to define who goes in what class.

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post #4 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 11:30 AM
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I agree there needs to a little bit of change up in how the categories are defined. Retaining a 3 tier structure for the stock to lightly modded rigs, modded rigs and the heavily modded rigs and being sure to cross your t's and dot you i's with defining what constitutes each class.

My thoughts:

Stock to Lightly Modded Class: Anything from bone stock to simple bolt on's like lights, cb's, wheels, rock rails, racks, etc. (There are plenty of people who have no interest or resources to move beyond this level so why eliminate the class.)

Modified Class: Any mod's that change the suspension, tires bigger than 32", bumpers, winches, etc.

Heavily Modified Class: Axle swaps, engine swaps, cages, stretches, tires bigger than XX" tall, etc.

Sure my rig has seen the trail, but I wheel it like a soccer mom looking for a parking spot at Nordstroms.
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post #5 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apt View Post
Hi guys,

I wanted to thank everyone for their participation in November's ROTM. It was a lot of fun and there were some really cool prizes too. One thing that did pop up and it has been seen before is the discussion on category definition.
I'd like everyone's input on what the definitions of the Ride of the Month categories are. Stock doesn't seem to be very doable based on the lack of participation in the category. So that needs to be considered for opening up a bit. There isn't much interested in the Heavy Modified category either. I know there are a number of rigs that I've seen here that qualify but some just aren't entered. Maybe revert back to light, medium and heavy mod? Or some other variation to garner more interest across the board?

What would you like to see changed about the definitions to make it better for everyone?

I'd love your feedback.

At the end of the week, I'll throw a poll up with some of the best suggestions and we'll see how it goes.

Remember though, at the end of this, it's still just for fun.
When I won, the stock definition (as listed at the time) was that as long as it didn't contribute to being more off road worthy. So bigger tires, bumpers, skids, etc would put it in the modified class (although I'd probably make an exception for a stock sport that has Rubi takeoffs). I thought this was good compromise. It allowed someone who had done some minor things to their vehicle (roof rack, lights, etc) to still compete as a stocker (which if we're being honest it was). However it bumps up those with a bumper/winch/larger tires that give people an advantage off road into the next class. I had wheel spacers on. The only reason I have those is because I will eventually need them when I go to 35s, and I absolutely hate the stock look.

And for someone not thinking that a winch and bumper make a difference... having that peace of mind has allowed me to try all sorts of shit that I wouldn't even consider when I didn't have it. As this contest is all based on wheeling pics (and lets be honest, one's personal thoughts/likes/opinion on how appealing ones rig is), a winch and bumper does give someone with a stock suspension/tires an edge over someone without. So I wouldn't base it entirely on tires/lift.

I'm fine with the definitions between heavy and modified classes. Well if I'm being honest I think 37s could go either way. Maybe some sort of combination between tire size and lift that would put it over the edge from modified into heavy... but overall I don't mind them.


Perhaps something like this (this is more for an example of what I'm thinking, and these can be tweaked):

Stock/class 1: stock (anything that doesn't give it an off road advantage - Rubi take off tires are the exception - or maybe just say tires less than 32" - idk)

Modified/class 2: lift 3.5" or less, 37's or less, rubicon D44 axles (can beef them up, but not replace them with a different/stronger D44). Any one of those items bumps it up to the next class.

Heavily Modified/class 3: Everything else.

Edit:

I do like the 3 classes and think that needs to stay, as I think it covers enough people to actually allow someone to compete. Yes it's possible for a stock JK to win against bigger more modified rigs... however that's not the norm. Having a class for the lightly modified rig, the modified rig and the heavily modified rig really allows for jeeps to be competing against other jeeps where they're all roughly comparable in regards to the jeep's ability off road.

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post #6 of 30 Old 11-27-2012, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kkuntz01 View Post
I agree there needs to a little bit of change up in how the categories are defined. Retaining a 3 tier structure for the stock to lightly modded rigs, modded rigs and the heavily modded rigs and being sure to cross your t's and dot you i's with defining what constitutes each class.

My thoughts:

Stock to Lightly Modded Class: Anything from bone stock to simple bolt on's like lights, cb's, wheels, rock rails, racks, etc. (There are plenty of people who have no interest or resources to move beyond this level so why eliminate the class.)

Modified Class: Any mod's that change the suspension, tires bigger than 32", bumpers, winches, etc.

Heavily Modified Class: Axle swaps, engine swaps, cages, stretches, tires bigger than XX" tall, etc.
Agree, I think this is the best solution. Keep the 3 classes with:

1. Stock to Lightly Modified: Simple bolt ons like lights, budget boost, possibly a winch (maybe even limit it to say 3 bigger mods like tires, a winch, and armor) anything more would bump up to the next class as being more than 'lightly modified'. Also tire size would predominantly be 33" or smaller.

2. Modified: Anything with 33-37 inch tires AND with multiple mods such as bumpers, a winch, sliders, a lift kit (thats more than a budget boost), wheels, lights, lockers, moderate axle upgrades, as well as other standard mods.

3. Heavily Modified: 37" tires and larger, a more involved lift kit to include stretches, coilover/bypass/resorvoir shocks, long arm kits, custom built lifts, frame cutting, triangulated 4 links, fuel cells, along with bumpers and all the usual mods. Axle, engine, trans, and transfer case upgrades would also fit into this category. (NOTE you might also consider breaking this category into two as its a pretty broad category but if theres only a few people who submit to this category each time it might be best to leave them combined...if you break them up I would put the jeeps with engine, axle replacement, custom suspension, and other 'extreme mods' into the higher up category)

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post #7 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
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Great suggestions so far guys. Keep em coming.

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post #8 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 09:12 AM
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I like Kkuntz's breakdown!

"Stock to Lightly Modded Class: Anything from bone stock to simple bolt on's like lights, cb's, wheels, rock rails, racks, etc. (There are plenty of people who have no interest or resources to move beyond this level so why eliminate the class.)

Modified Class: Any mod's that change the suspension, tires bigger than 32", bumpers, winches, etc.

Heavily Modified Class: Axle swaps, engine swaps, cages, stretches, tires bigger than XX" tall, etc."
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post #9 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 11:41 AM
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two categories:

white jeeps

all other jeeps




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post #10 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 02:01 PM
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The problem comes with people start nitpicking the rules. They need to be clearly defined and easy to understand. For instance, if the rule is no suspension mods, do quick disconnects count in that category or not? I'm leaning more towards the tire rule I posted earlier. It keeps it simple to understand and eliminates a lot of questions about who fits in what class.

You could also add a "catch all" unlimited class for anyone with any size tires that would rather take a gamble and put their rig up against anyone else that decided to enter that class. This class could have a higher valued prize, but the competition would be a lot stronger and would have more extreme rigs expected to enter it. Of course this would all depend on what the sponsors are willing to donate.

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post #11 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo78 View Post
The problem comes with people start nitpicking the rules. They need to be clearly defined and easy to understand. For instance, if the rule is no suspension mods, do quick disconnects count in that category or not?
The stock Rubicon has the e-disco, so I don't see why a sport having quick disco's should matter. An easy catch all would be to say if it makes it more capable than a stock Rubicon, then it gets bumped up.

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post #12 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 03:00 PM
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Idk I think there needs to be set guidelines as to what goes and what doesn't. The problem with saying that if its as capable as a rubicon that it can still be in the stock category is its open to interpretation. I mean a rubicon has lockers, a D44 front axle, and a 4:1 transfer case. So then does that open up the stock class to a locked PR44 and a rubicrawler? If its open to interpretation then different people will have a different interpretation of what the rules mean, no different than what laws are. It should be clearly defined as to what mods are allowed and what aren't. Or how many mods/the "size" or capability the mod enhances the jeep to. You could even go as far as to give mods a classification maybe say 1-5. 5 being the highest. Say lights would score a 1, rocker armor a 2, 33-35 tires a 3, 37-40 tires and one ton axles and larger lifts with long arms or coilover a 4, stretches engine mods and other highly custom work a 5. Have a point range for each category so if you have only a few 1 PT mods then you could still fall in the stock category but if you have a couple major mods but only one or two it might only bump you up to modified class. This would make it clear and fair to everyone and make it easy for them to classify their jeeps.

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post #13 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 03:06 PM
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Keep in mind the more difficult it is to follow the rules, the more likely of a chance you won't enter the right category. Also, Apt is probably the guy that is going to be enforcing all these rules so making it complicated isn't going to make his life any easier either.

Riptide's reply is exactly what you don't want to have happen once the contest is under way. A rule that is not easily and clearly defined can cause problems.

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post #14 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Exactly Espo. If I can't easily bin you to the right category I'm not going to enjoy doing this for very long.

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post #15 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgun863 View Post
Idk I think there needs to be set guidelines as to what goes and what doesn't. The problem with saying that if its as capable as a rubicon that it can still be in the stock category is its open to interpretation. I mean a rubicon has lockers, a D44 front axle, and a 4:1 transfer case. So then does that open up the stock class to a locked PR44 and a rubicrawler?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espo78 View Post
Keep in mind the more difficult it is to follow the rules, the more likely of a chance you won't enter the right category. Also, Apt is probably the guy that is going to be enforcing all these rules so making it complicated isn't going to make his life any easier either.

Riptide's reply is exactly what you don't want to have happen once the contest is under way. A rule that is not easily and clearly defined can cause problems.
You're both taking what I wrote and specifically responded to out of context. You can see my reply above regarding my thoughts/idea's as to how I think things should be separated (axles were specifically mentioned with the PR44 in mind).

Espo78 posed the question about suspension mods bumping someone from one class to another, and whether disconnects would be classified as a suspension mod. To say yes, and that quick disconnects are a suspension mod seems really silly when one can buy a stock Rubicon with the e-disco.

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post #16 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 04:43 PM
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I like the idea of budget boosts being allowed in the lowest class. Call it what you want, "stock", "lightly modified", or whatever, but if you're only adding to what came off the assembly line, then it ain't that greatly modified yet (don't take that the wrong way folks). Once you start swapping out springs, shocks, control arms, etc., then I think you've definitely entered the realm of "modified". Step up to long arms, coilovers, D60's, 9's, 14B, etc. and you're in the "highly modified", "extreme modified", or whatever you wanna call it category.

That being said, while an AEV hood, new fastback top, replacement headlights, etc. swap out the parts that came from the factory, I feel these should be still allowed in the lowest category.

In the end, there has to be a judge to make judgement calls.

Have fun with that, Apt.


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post #17 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 04:44 PM
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You're both taking what I wrote and specifically responded to out of context. You can see my reply above regarding my thoughts/idea's as to how I think things should be separated (axles were specifically mentioned with the PR44 in mind).

Espo78 posed the question about suspension mods bumping someone from one class to another, and whether disconnects would be classified as a suspension mod. To say yes, and that quick disconnects are a suspension mod seems really silly when one can buy a stock Rubicon with the e-disco.
I wasn't necessarily talking about just your post, and I apologize if I took it out of context but my point still stands. The rules need to be clearly defined.

It's hard to say that just because someone has xx size tires that they should be in one category. There's probably going to have to be some tweaking along the way to make the categories more even, but at the same time you don't want to have one category that's extremely restricted and one that's wide open or people will feel like it isn't really fair that if they have x amount of mods they have to compete with twice as many rigs (this is just an example). The solution should be as fair as possible and should be easy both to classify and moderate.

Having specific guidelines for people to follow will make it easier on the person running it as there shouldn't be as much of a question as to which category they fall in. Also, I would say that people should treat this like the honor system. Most of the people on this forum seem to be decent people and can determine what's fair and where their rig falls. You could also add (to keep it fair) that all winners will be looked at as to which class they submitted to and if its determined that they are clearly not supposed to be in that class that the person with the second most votes will win by default. That will serve to help keep people honest.

Then all that needs to be determined is what type of system you would like to use to classify rigs. I think my point system for mods would be easy. I mean you don't necessarily have to add up every mod you have to determine what category you're in. If you know you have axle swaps, a major custom suspension build, and big tires then its pretty clear you wouldn't fit into the lower point categories. If you have an average amount of points then you'd fall in the middle range (this could be attained by a bunch of smaller mods making the vehicle pretty capable or ONLY a couple major mods also making the vehicle pretty capable but not so capable as the higher up class). The lightly modified category would be the same. A person could have a couple smaller mods say equating to a stock rubi or maybe a little beyond and that's it. But any more than a couple major mods and it would be put over the edge to the next categories. Since rubi's are already pretty well equipped, only a few smaller mods might push it up to the next category. See how that could work?

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post #18 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 05:58 PM
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So if I have a 2" front leveling kit and 35s I'm in modified class??

How about who ever is in charge each month, just makes the best decision and breaks it up into 3 groups with mild to wild mods.

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post #19 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 06:13 PM
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SIKJEEP, the rules are still up for consideration, but honestly if you have 35's why would you think you would be in any other class other than modified? You surely wouldn't fit into a "stock" class.

Again this goes back to the problem of individual interpretation and the necessity for clearly defined and easy to follow rules.

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post #20 of 30 Old 11-28-2012, 07:54 PM
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What about losing the classes?

Use a single theme each month instead.....Fall colors, snow, malls, speed, flops, mud, line-ups, flats, etc.....and let the owners go out and figure it out? Then the best composed pic, with the best JK, with the best theme intent wins the votes.
If you give out next months theme now, then owners can go get the pics, instead pulling a stock one out of their folder.

Start with a theme of "snow" for January's ROTM. Yeah some folks are SOL depending on where they live and how mother nature is treating them....but tough!

---> just a thought.

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post #21 of 30 Old 11-29-2012, 02:04 PM
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I like that idea but then you end up with a photography contest and lots of us are not good photographers or don't have the software to really make pictures look great. I think that would be a great idea for a separate contest if there is enough interest though.

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post #22 of 30 Old 12-04-2012, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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I have to get this thread back on track. I've been busy with RL.
There has been some good back and forth on this.
What I'm seeing here is quite a bit of division on what it would take to be consistently fair to everyone involved. Heavy guys in with Mod guys. Stockish guys in with the Mod guys, etc.
There is hardly a lot of contestants in the Heavy and Stock classes. Modified is usually loaded. There's always nice rigs in every category.
We've tried defining by Suspension upgrades, tire size, axle upgrades, body cutting, engine upgrades. All seem to have some concern for fairness of class defining.
A suggestion was made for a point system as well. It could work, but to be honest, I'm not into getting that scientific in order to run this show.

So, how about you put your rig in with all of your modifications you want to mention, some excellent pictures of maybe before and after and your very best wheelin shots (3 wheelin, crossed up, steep climbs, whatever). I'll decide the class that it goes in. It'll be organized based on category submissions for the month in a light, medium and heavy mod fashion to balance most of the entrants out in each of the classes. I won't be getting it perfect each month, but I'll do my best to get it close. I'd be willing to listen to a civil appeal to a decision citing factual items like "that rig and my rig are identical except he has those lights and I have a tire carrier and we're in different classes" etc. I may overturn, but I won't promise anything.

Then we'll run the vote.

And as an added twist, I get a vote and so does the prize donating vendor of the class.
Our votes are worth 10 votes each. Sometimes we'd cancel each other out and sometimes we'd swing a vote from a popular 'setup' to the second runner up. The reason I'm offering this extra added twist is to try and off set the apparent fixing of the voting. This doesn't mean I won't side with that rig that's in the lead and the vendor of the prize might also depending on the quality of the build and pictures. You bring a strong rig and weak pictures (driveway or poser shots) and I'll likely vote for the 2nd or 3rd place rigs with better wheelin shots. Background plays a major part in the picture as well. Wheel up on Poison Spyder Mesa? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice..... Crawling your buddies rig at the mall with wicked flex, meh - maybe not. Depends - every pic is as different as every rig.
I'm trying to give everyone a fighting chance and get rid of the popularity contest that this has been known to be in the past.
Also - if the vendor opts out of voting - I take his vote as well. Or I'll let a guest voter take their place. My first thought is TXROCK. I'm pretty sure he'd offer a vote.
PS - by the end of the first month in this style of proposed set up, someone will hate me. Because they may have lost the chance to win some free part or prize. Oh well. It's only be run for fun and to give everyone a chance at some healthy competition. If you can't play along in that atmosphere...I ain't too sympathetic to your plight.

Thoughts?
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post #23 of 30 Old 12-04-2012, 11:39 AM
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I think ifyou want to try to "offset the fixing of voting" then giving you and the vendor 20 votes total is going to have the opposite effect. That is fixing the contest more than anything else could accomplish and completely unnecessary.

Also, it's your contest for now so you can do it how you see fit but I also think that you having sole decision over who goes into what class based on the entrants for the month is another big mistake. You are asking for people to be upset this way. Without clear guidelines you are heading for disaster. Don't over complicate it. Keep the rules simple and easy to follow. The tire rule seems to be the easiest to me. Just define what tire sizes are in each range of classes and you are done. Simple. If A guy is running stock suspension with flat fenders and 37's he can compete with the guy with a 4 link and 37s. May the best entrant win.

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post #24 of 30 Old 12-04-2012, 12:53 PM Thread Starter
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It ain't that simple. My rig is a pretty good example of how tire size doesn't work to define a class. Usually it's up to 35's for light, 35's to 37's for Modified and above 37's for Heavy. Then it comes down to axles and additions.
My rig has 37's. Prorock44. ARB locked front and rear. 3" suspension lift. OBA, winch and some armor. All the other stuff doesn't matter.
Besides the Prorock - which I could decide not to announce as being present, which part of that becomes Heavy Modified? None of it. Therefore, by not announcing my PR44 up front, I could easily enter into the Modified arena and go head to head against others with 35's and 37's and likely get a few votes. I feel bad for my friend that is running 35's on a budget boost, no winch, no armor and a tire carrier if he decides to run against me.
Were I to state the PR44, I would be up against individual's that may or may not be running 1 tons, cages, stretches, long arms/4 links, coilovers, hemi's or other power adders. I would not stand a chance at winning against those rigs - like planman, desert dog, co4lo, HITMONEY, etc. I'm sure they would feel bad that I got jammed in a class that didn't seem like a fair fight.

Which class would you put my rig in Espo (or anyone for that matter)?
If I changed the class definitions to stock to 34's = light, 35's to 36's = medium and 37's and higher = heavy, where does that place a lot of the entrants?

A medium build nowadays seems to equate to 37's, axle beef, suspension lift, armor, cut fenders or flares, winch and minor body cutting to clear the big tires. Even on a 2 door. Heavy is moving into 39.5" tires, stretches, coilovers and axles. But I've seen some entrants here that want to put in a rig with lightly beefed Rubi axles and 35's, that are stretched, running coilovers, flares, cage, and some other custom body work. Where would you place that entrant? I'm going to put him in Heavy. Automatically. Regardless of the guidelines. Because it wouldn't be fair for him to enter the Modified class and compete with the other guy on 35's without all of those nice modifications.

Maybe the point system has some merit after all. I'll have to think more about that.

To address the 20 vote swing, the purpose, as stated, was to prevent a possible fix. I could easily decide that the most popular rig is also the deserved winner as could the vendor. I actually thought that maybe I would just vote the winner of each class and not allow any of you guys a say in the ultimate winner, but then what would be the point of having the thread go up for a week? I'd like to see what some individuals have to say about a rig and why it should win. Most of the time you can tell it's territory based voting. Also, 20 votes might not be enough to off set some rather large group's decision to help sway the vote with it becoming a popularity contest. This part of the ROTM bothers me the most. Not so much the classes. Someone is going to be upset each month on the classes, I'm sure.

So, maybe I'll put up a vote tonight with several options and we can see what people actually think might work.
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post #25 of 30 Old 12-04-2012, 02:33 PM
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I can tell you are putting a lot of thought into this but I just don't agree. If you were to go to a tire size class there would be no more modified or heavily modded etc. I'm at work othwise I would write more on the subject. Maybe later.

Mike
'07 2 door soft top
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