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post #1 of 34 Old 05-22-2009, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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Double Double Cardan

Anyone running a double double cardan driveshaft to eliminate vibrations and still be able to get needed caster?
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post #2 of 34 Old 05-25-2009, 02:04 PM Thread Starter
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Nobody? Talked to Tom Woods and he said that they put a Double Cardan on both ends sometimes to eliminate vibrations at higher angles. I was thinking about doing this in order to be able to have enough caster for the steering without worrying about vibrations. Not sure if it's worth the extra $180 though.
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post #3 of 34 Old 05-25-2009, 09:15 PM
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I had thought about this myself, didn't know anyone made em.
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post #4 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 07:46 AM
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bump I too are also curious about this.
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post #5 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 10:19 AM
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out of curiousity, how much lift are you running that you need this extreme driveshaft??


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post #6 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 11:02 AM
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Having a double cardon at both ends is for very extreme angles and usually on pretty short DS. Also used for angles where the diff is offset from the TC.

I have known people that have ran two cardons and they all had vibration issues. You may even have to run a fixed bearing in the middle of the shaft to stabilize it.

Long story short...a Double cardon at each end would be for a offroad only vehicle and not for a vehicle driven on the Highway. Fr too much hassel for the extra degree or two your looking for.
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post #7 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WTF_LOL View Post
Long story short...a Double cardon at each end would be for a offroad only vehicle and not for a vehicle driven on the Highway.
That was my understanding too, something about them running out of phase with each other and causing vibration.
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post #8 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 01:48 PM
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And I should clarify what I said about on a short DS.

I have only seen them in offroad applications where they had short DS on hard angles. My understanding is the best application for a Double Cardon on each end is on a very long DS which will help keep it in phase
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post #9 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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When I spoke to Tom Woods, I asked him about vibrations at higher speeds and setting the caster high enough to keep from having the flighty steering. He said that when this is an issue they go to a multiple double cardan. I got the impression that they had done some of these on JKs. Their website advertises multiple double cardan for vehicles which "the pinion angle cannot be adjusted without adversely effecting steering caster" such as Grand Cherokees and Land Rovers. This sounds like what a lot of people complain about on lifted JKs - not being able to set caster high enough without getting vibrations. I'm no expert, which is why I asked the question. I told Tom when I asked the question that I was concerned aboutvibrations at highway speeds, so I don't think he would have recommended something that was intended for off road use only. I'm going to try the regular double cardan first.
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post #10 of 34 Old 05-27-2009, 06:52 PM
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If you do end up doing the double double keep us updated. I would be very curious to hear how it works out on a DD. The angles would be great, thats for sure.

I can only speak based on the couple vehicles I have seen running them and they all had issues on the road but they were also built for offroad only so there certainly could have been more adding to their issues other then just the shaft
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post #11 of 34 Old 07-06-2009, 06:55 PM
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I have a 2dr Rubicon with a 3" Teraflex lift. We also installed front spacers to level out the front JK lean. Installed Tom Woods front and rear shafts. Have lower front and upper rear adj. control arms and have adjusted the rear dif so that the pinion is in line with the driveshaft. No issues. The front is another issue. I have a vibration that starts at about 60mph and seems to be the worst in the 62-68 mph range. Checked the front end, adjusted caster, camber etc and couldn't get the vibration out. Had a little play in one of the u joints so after discussion with Tom Woods sent the front driveshaft back. The replaced all three u-joints and rebalanced. Sent it back promptly and all at no charge. Vibration is slightly less noticable since my install yesterday. However it already is getting worse (don't understand why). Not sure what my next step is going to be.
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post #12 of 34 Old 07-07-2009, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottK View Post
Anyone running a double double cardan driveshaft to eliminate vibrations and still be able to get needed caster?
I don't know if there is anyone around your area but if your having issues; hit up a drivetrain guy that can turn your pumpkin up. If you pull it out from under the truck and give the guy the housing it may be cheaper then the driveshaft. Maybe Spidertrax or Crane?

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This is exactly why we need to practice proper gun control.

If he was aiming down the sights correctly and had plenty of practice rounds under his belt, there would only be one side of this story.
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post #13 of 34 Old 07-07-2009, 10:41 AM
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Just thought of this, It may hve been covered elsewhere. I know the CV joints on stock Driveshafts are tiny but wouldn't it be nice if RCV/Longfield made a larger version (smaller version of the axle joint) just for driveshafts?

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This is exactly why we need to practice proper gun control.

If he was aiming down the sights correctly and had plenty of practice rounds under his belt, there would only be one side of this story.
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post #14 of 34 Old 07-07-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncojohn View Post
Just thought of this, It may hve been covered elsewhere. I know the CV joints on stock Driveshafts are tiny but wouldn't it be nice if RCV/Longfield made a larger version (smaller version of the axle joint) just for driveshafts?
Yeah... that sounds interesting.

Jeff
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post #15 of 34 Old 07-08-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by love2jeep View Post
I have a 2dr Rubicon with a 3" Teraflex lift. We also installed front spacers to level out the front JK lean. Installed Tom Woods front and rear shafts. Have lower front and upper rear adj. control arms and have adjusted the rear dif so that the pinion is in line with the driveshaft. No issues. The front is another issue. I have a vibration that starts at about 60mph and seems to be the worst in the 62-68 mph range. Checked the front end, adjusted caster, camber etc and couldn't get the vibration out. Had a little play in one of the u joints so after discussion with Tom Woods sent the front driveshaft back. The replaced all three u-joints and rebalanced. Sent it back promptly and all at no charge. Vibration is slightly less noticable since my install yesterday. However it already is getting worse (don't understand why). Not sure what my next step is going to be.

How many degrees of caster are you running. If I recall factory specs are 4.6 degrees. I found that when I ran stock driveshafts after my lift I could run 6 degrees and it had a very stable on-center feel to it. After I went to aftermarket driveshafts I felt a vibration in the front. I dialed the caster back to 4-4.5 and it went away. The front is not near as critaical as the back for vibration because on the road it is coasting and unpowered. Off road when it's powered the speeds are lower so it isn't an issue. I doubt I'd go to a double CV. You could always have your knuckles cut and rotated too.

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post #16 of 34 Old 07-15-2009, 07:08 PM
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Had a conversation with Teraflex this weekend about the vibration on the front driveshaft. We were running 4.5-5 degree caster which is what they recommended in their documentation. Teraflex actually states that the 3" lift on a 2dr nets out at about 5" of actual lift. Didn't measure before and after but that number feels about right based on the effort to climb in now. They recommended a 3 degrees of caster and said it wouldn't really impact driveability. Dialed that in today and got out on the freeway and zero vibration. Just a little tire noise. I don't really feel any difference in steering, on center feel, effort, etc. Done!! Thanks Teraflex!!!!
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post #17 of 34 Old 07-16-2009, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Since I'm the OP I thought I'd let everybody know that I ended up going with the standard Tom Woods front driveshaft. I set my front upper CAs at approx. 19-3/8" and my front lowers at approx. 22-7/8 with approx. 5" of lift, which according to my $10 Home Depot angle finder gives me between 3 and 3-1/2 degrees caster. The steering seems good at this setting and I'm not experiencing any vibrations at all. I'll get an alignment at some point and find out exactly what the caster is, but am in no hurry right now because everything seems to be working very well. I kept hearing you need at least 7 degrees of caster or you'll have flighty steering, which had me worried about the angles and thinking about the need for the multi double cardan shaft, but after lowering the caster and driving the Jeep I think that 7 degrees is more than what is needed. I drove the Jeep with these settings over 800 miles last week, 700 miles on a fairly twisty highway (Denver to Gunnison and then Silverton to Montrose for the guys that know the area) and it felt rock solid the entire time.
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post #18 of 34 Old 07-16-2009, 05:41 PM
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The steering gets spooky when you get to around 1° of caster, and uncomfortable below 2°, 3° feels good in my view. 7° of caster will give you a real crappy pinion angle and will likely destroy an aftermarket shaft pretty quickly and maybe even the t-case.
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post #19 of 34 Old 07-18-2009, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by love2jeep View Post
I have a 2dr Rubicon with a 3" Teraflex lift. We also installed front spacers to level out the front JK lean. Installed Tom Woods front and rear shafts. Have lower front and upper rear adj. control arms and have adjusted the rear dif so that the pinion is in line with the driveshaft. No issues. The front is another issue. I have a vibration that starts at about 60mph and seems to be the worst in the 62-68 mph range. Checked the front end, adjusted caster, camber etc and couldn't get the vibration out. Had a little play in one of the u joints so after discussion with Tom Woods sent the front driveshaft back. The replaced all three u-joints and rebalanced. Sent it back promptly and all at no charge. Vibration is slightly less noticable since my install yesterday. However it already is getting worse (don't understand why). Not sure what my next step is going to be.
Bro I have my TW shaft here but a friend told me not to install until i can replace the arms to adjust the Differential angle. Could I do it and when I have the money change the arms? or would this cause problems? Also can the stock arms be streached to correct this and save $$$ ???
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post #20 of 34 Old 09-28-2010, 08:09 PM
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Thought I'd bring this thread from the dead...

My standard 1310 TW DS is on it's way to Tom Woods to have a second multiple double cardan added to it. I'm pretty picky about my castor and wasn't happy running little castor to get rid of my DS vibration. It's set to arrive at his doorstep 9/30, I guess he will need a few days to mod it before sending it back. I will keep this thread updated. Seems to be the cheapest way to get my rig running the way I like it.

no jeep here...

Last edited by Racer83l; 10-11-2010 at 09:30 AM.
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post #21 of 34 Old 10-11-2010, 09:30 AM
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Here she is...

Multiple Double Cardan Tom Woods DS.. 1310.


no jeep here...
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post #22 of 34 Old 10-11-2010, 04:25 PM
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i'm in the same boat. i'm about to send mine back to TW for the multiple double cardan. how's it working out Racer? any issues with highway use and high speeds? mine is my DD and i need it to drive to the trails and then back home.

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post #23 of 34 Old 10-11-2010, 05:18 PM
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I'm actually installing it tomorrow night... Tom Woods was 100% confident it wouldn't have any vibration issues... I trust him.

Once it's installed, I'll report back a quick first impressions review

no jeep here...
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post #24 of 34 Old 10-11-2010, 05:25 PM
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thanks dude. i was beginning to get a little skeptical after reading some of these posts.

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MC 2.5", Fox RR TF tuned shocks, TF carrier, Viair, TL's and so on...... still on stock tires
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post #25 of 34 Old 10-11-2010, 06:05 PM
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I spoke with Woods last summer about this and their warning was that it would likely just move the vibrations into another speed range, and that they are virtually impossible to balance. I passed & went with manual front hubs. A giant PITA to get all the parts shipped, but, no more driveline rumble.
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