Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 06:38 AM Thread Starter
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Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt?

I read many post and I try to figure out the pros/cons of tons axles swap. Here's a list of question I have (probably many other's have)

1- We all agree that we need a ford hp60, but they have produce many variation and fitting it under the JK is a tight fit


A- let start by the kingpin model from 78-79 that have more room on the passenger side for spring pad/control arm bracket, they do have 35 inners and 30 outers so stub shaft replacement is needed

B- by mid 80's, they came back with the king pin model but with different tube lenght that make fitting the bracket tighter but with the same construction

C- when switching to super duty serie, they change the front kingpin hp60 to ball joint/unit bearing with abs sensor then the unit bearing are poor at least and pricey. physical dimension is about the same

D- somewhere mid 2000's, they change a bit, having better bearing but still about the same as the previous super duty one's

E- there is some super 60 found on the f450 and f550 model but not really an option as they are rare as hell and $$$

F- any insane that will try an hybrid 14 bolt!!!

Share with us which one you use, how you stuff the bracket on it, how you manage abs signal/tone ring, brake line compatibility, master cylinder model if you feel the need to change it and any other particularity of your swap.


2- For the rear, did you use an old 14 bolt or the new GM AAM 10.5 that already have disc brake with parking brake on it and still use the same gear/carrier? How did you manage abs sensor/tone ring and which bracket did you use. As rear axle are different width, did you run spacer or just left it as is?


Feel free to add any question I have forgotten, any link to thread you have made, maybe a pricing range of your build and for sure, a lot of pics of your axles under your JK!!!

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post #2 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 09:13 AM
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Re: Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt?

As long as it took you to type the above you could have used the search feature and found the answers your looking for.

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post #3 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 09:45 AM Thread Starter
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I've done it but I want to have people share their experience about axle choice, if they'll do the same after completion and jusitfy her choice. There's so many different way to do it. Trying to have it in the same thread make sense for me.

Personnaly, old kingpin is the way I prefer but there is so much newer axle for cheap that I'm trying to weight all the options. By the way, I haven't found any tone ring installation on a kingpin front hub, still searching...

And I haven't find any AAM 10.5 yet, where are they???

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post #4 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 10:00 AM
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I'm interested in doing this as well at some point - but the technical side of it is a bit overwhelming. good questions.

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post #5 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 10:04 AM
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If I had to do it over again I'd get a 05+Super60 and a 14 bolt for the rear.
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post #6 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk007 View Post
I read many post and I try to figure out the pros/cons of tons axles swap. Here's a list of question I have (probably many other's have)

1- We all agree that we need a ford hp60, but they have produce many variation and fitting it under the JK is a tight fit


A- let start by the kingpin model from 78-79 that have more room on the passenger side for spring pad/control arm bracket, they do have 35 inners and 30 outers so stub shaft replacement is needed

OUTERS ARE NOT NEEDED, IM EVEN RUNNING THE STOCK HUBS ON 40"S ON MY BUGGY, SO FAR SO GOOD.

B- by mid 80's, they came back with the king pin model but with different tube lenght that make fitting the bracket tighter but with the same construction

C- when switching to super duty serie, they change the front kingpin hp60 to ball joint/unit bearing with abs sensor then the unit bearing are poor at least and pricey. physical dimension is about the same

UNIT BEARINGS ARE EXPENSIVE AND EXPENSIVE TO CONVERT.

D- somewhere mid 2000's, they change a bit, having better bearing but still about the same as the previous super duty one's

ALSO HAVE TO WATCH OF FOR THE DANA 50'S

E- there is some super 60 found on the f450 and f550 model but not really an option as they are rare as hell and $$$

F- any insane that will try an hybrid 14 bolt!!!

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ UNLESS YOU DO IT LIKE IAN ON EXTREME AND BUILD IT FROM JUNKYARD.

Share with us which one you use, how you stuff the bracket on it, how you manage abs signal/tone ring, brake line compatibility, master cylinder model if you feel the need to change it and any other particularity of your swap.


2- For the rear, did you use an old 14 bolt or the new GM AAM 10.5 that already have disc brake with parking brake on it and still use the same gear/carrier? How did you manage abs sensor/tone ring and which bracket did you use. As rear axle are different width, did you run spacer or just left it as is?

OLDER 14 BOLTS ARE BETTER, ALLOT OF THE TRUSS DONT FIT THE NEWER ONES. THEY ARE EASY TO CONVERT TO DISCS. RUN IT THE 2" NARROW IT STEERS BETTER AND WORKS BETTER ON THE TRAIL. IM NOT SURE ON THE ABS STUFF.


Feel free to add any question I have forgotten, any link to thread you have made, maybe a pricing range of your build and for sure, a lot of pics of your axles under your JK!!!
MY 2 CENTS

2015 JK Unlimited Anvil
SOLD -2009 JK Unlimited Rubicon Deep Water Blue
1987 YJ Stretched 60/14 40" LTB's

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post #7 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 03:03 PM
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It would be nice if you could just go out and get the exact axle you want at a perfect price, but that will not happen in the real world.

If you want it on the cheap, you are going to have to compromise on a few things. If money is no object and you want it perfect from the start, give Dynatrac a call.

Be careful with Ford axles, as I constantly see people buy D60/10.5 combos and find out later that they are really D50/10.25 combos. They look the same, so be mindful of this.

Any junkyard 60 you buy will require new shafts, brackets, probably gears, a locker, diff cover, I would do 35spl outer conversion too if its a pre-2005 - so factor that into the price.

The Super Duty ball-joint axles are not bad, In fact the unit bearing set-up in those is pretty damn tough and totally upgradeable. People rag on BJ axles because you often loose the balljoints when the shaft fails at the u-joint - but if you run RCVs, that is a non-issue. Be mindful that the new generation Super Duty Axles run that funky metric pattern so wheel options will be limited.

Kingpin 60s are a more durable set-up overall, except for the knuckles. I have seen twice as many D60 kingpin knuckles fail than I have unit bearings (a quick google search on this will enlighten you). Also, plan on replacing/rebuilding the kingpins before you install the axle because chances are that the plastic bushing is crap, upgrade those to brass.

Definitely get a HP60 in the front for the strength and ground clearance.

14 bolts and Ford 10.5 rears are good. The old ones are strong and very easy to convert to disk break (I did it on the 14B in my buggy in a day for under $200).

The 14-bolt is a stronger unit: stronger housing, 3rd pinion bearing, 4 spider gears (vs 2 or 3 in a sterling). Both 14b and Sterling have big tubes that are 1/2" thick at the housing and taper to the ends. FACTORY 14-bolt shafts are legendary for their strength and are known to be stronger than most aftermarket ones. 14-bolts are also the easiest axle to set up and repair on the trail. 14-bolts also have huge aftermarket support and cheap parts. That being said, they are very heavy and need a shave just so you can get through stuff on 40s that the guys on 37s are doing. The biggest weakness of a 14 bolt is that the driveline is held on by cheesy straps & bolts, a yoke kit is really needed you are going to off-road with this axle.

The 10.5 ford has great clearance for such a big axle and needs no shave or yoke kits. Like the 14-b, the 10.5 is overkill for most jeeps and will put up with a lot of abuse. So, many are willing to trade a little bit of strength for good clearance and lighter weight, and many more 10.5s can be found with factory disk brakes.

Of course, a Pro-Rock 80 will eat all of these axles alive!
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post #8 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 08:15 PM
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60/14

my .02...and I am in NO way an expert !!!

front - any ford kingpin 60. I used a 79. the new BJ 60's work but...see others on high stear issues. Plus after 99 there is that damn 8 on 107mm thing !!

14 bolt - use an old one, I am running a 2007 and the disk breaks came on the axle...sounds great BUT they are on the front side of the axle. Not a show stopper but it was just more to fab around.

But the above posters are correct...READ every one ton thread MANY times on JKO and pirate BEFORE you even start. there is a ton of good info to sift through and mistakes made that will help you decide and build.
Again just my .02...

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post #9 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 08:43 PM
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I am swapping some late model Ford axles now... aftermarket is caught up and everything you need is available. Older axles have more aftermarket support, but that will even as time marches on.

The old thinking that the 14 bolt was king do to cheap aftermarket has changed.... they woke up and now things are priced near to other options. Price a Detroit in both and you'll see what I am talking about.... and not long ago that price difference was over 300.

I have seen the JP article on strength, but have also seen another on a more traveled automotive website that stated something different than the JP article stated... I'll have to find it, but it put the Sterling 10.5 in between the 70 and 80. Never the less... both axles are way stronger than a 60. Just looking at the Currie I am replacing is laughable. The Sterling is twice the beef!

Bolt pattern in the newer Ford axles is a non issue, as long as you use them as a set. There are plenty of wheel options... as this bolt pattern has been used for almost 15 years on a truck that has been widely deployed. TR makes beadlocks and I am sure others do as well.

High steer issues are solved on all Ford knuckles.

Late model Ford axles will give you a headache when it comes to the drivers side tube. I am using nickle to solve the issue, but that is a very expensive option. It is doable without the nickle, but neither option is as neat or durable.

Unit bearings.... for you haters. Go on Pirate and search for failures. I bet you see a ton of kingpin failures and very few UB failures. DD also had great advice on this.... and it's the reason I went that route at a few more dollars than a CTM 300M setup (my other option).

Be happy I am bored.... you should have searched as there is another thread very similar to this one (that's been updated a few times in the last few days) and you could have expanded that one instead of making a new one.


** not bashing the 14 bolt... get what you can find cheaply that will work.
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post #10 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jk007 View Post
I read many post and I try to figure out the pros/cons of tons axles swap. Here's a list of question I have (probably many other's have)

1- We all agree that we need a ford hp60, but they have produce many variation and fitting it under the JK is a tight fit


A- let start by the kingpin model from 78-79 that have more room on the passenger side for spring pad/control arm bracket, they do have 35 inners and 30 outers so stub shaft replacement is needed

B- by mid 80's, they came back with the king pin model but with different tube lenght that make fitting the bracket tighter but with the same construction

C- when switching to super duty serie, they change the front kingpin hp60 to ball joint/unit bearing with abs sensor then the unit bearing are poor at least and pricey. physical dimension is about the same

D- somewhere mid 2000's, they change a bit, having better bearing but still about the same as the previous super duty one's

E- there is some super 60 found on the f450 and f550 model but not really an option as they are rare as hell and $$$

F- any insane that will try an hybrid 14 bolt!!!

Share with us which one you use, how you stuff the bracket on it, how you manage abs signal/tone ring, brake line compatibility, master cylinder model if you feel the need to change it and any other particularity of your swap.


2- For the rear, did you use an old 14 bolt or the new GM AAM 10.5 that already have disc brake with parking brake on it and still use the same gear/carrier? How did you manage abs sensor/tone ring and which bracket did you use. As rear axle are different width, did you run spacer or just left it as is?


Feel free to add any question I have forgotten, any link to thread you have made, maybe a pricing range of your build and for sure, a lot of pics of your axles under your JK!!!
One of many 1ton threads out there. Ive got a 98 14bolt and used great lakes offroad disck conversion with ebrake. Front is a 94 d60. If your poor and cheep like me and going to run coils and more stock setup get a 78-79 king pin. give ya a little more tube to weld to . If not just plan on some cast welding and a little more work. I took mine for a test drive today and im stoked! Updates tomorrow! Good luck man, its a handful of work and time consuming but ultimately it feels good to do it.

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post #11 of 61 Old 03-20-2013, 09:51 PM
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I chose to do a 79 D60 front and 01 AAM 10.5 rear.

Front - Kingpins suck to rebuild. Those kingpins are torqued down at 500-600 ft-lbs, and don't like to budge. But, they are strong and the aftermarket for them is endless!

Rear - The AAM shares all the same R&P and lockers with the older 14 bolts, BUT the axle shafts are not the same. The axle has a little different (wider) WMS than the older 14 bolt. The brakes, as someone said earlier are on the front, so I had to shorten the hard lines. I ended up having to replace all the brake parts anyways, so I am sure I spent more than I would have if I went older and bought the disc conversion. But I really wanted the e-brakes because I have a manual. I have the Dynatrac tone rings waiting to go in, but with all the e-brake stuff in the way, I'm not sure how to get it through all the stuff. I would get an older one if I were to do it again...


Front


Rear

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post #12 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 08:48 AM
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Just a FYI but Ford Sterling 10.25 all have drum brakes and are pre 99, all after that are 10.5" and have disk brakes with internal parking brakes.

Ford D60's till 99 after that were 50 for the most part till arround '01 then 60's again.

All Ford Excursions have 50's.

Dealer for: MoTech, Atlas, Dynatrac, Rock Krawler, ORO, Currie, Poison Spyder, Bilstein, Fox, SWAY-A-WAY, Ridid, Adams and Tom Woods DS's. And much more!


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post #13 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CT Performance, Inc View Post
Just a FYI but Ford Sterling 10.25 all have drum brakes and are pre 99, all after that are 10.5" and have disk brakes with internal parking brakes.

Ford D60's till 99 after that were 50 for the most part till arround '01 then 60's again.

All Ford Excursions have 50's.

Take a look at FTE. You'll see many reports of a 60 under the Excursion. Your claim that the 50 was basically ditched in 01 is not really right on either... the 50 was used for a few more years than that.

Also... Sterling 10.25s are available until about 2004. They were used in later model F150s and I am pretty certain they had disc brakes.
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post #14 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 11:26 AM
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Re: Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt?

I'm pretty sure he's right about d50 and excursions. I have a pdf file on my home pc of all axles ford made make model and such. I will post a link when I get home. I do remember when I was looking for one many prople on Craigslist would push 50s as 60s. I pissed a few guys off proving they had a d50. They almost all said I've been doing axle swaps for years I know this is a d60.

Easy way to tell without pulling cover off is look at the pinion nut. If I remember correctly its larger than the one on a d50

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post #15 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 12:03 PM
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Came home for break here's the link. I suggest anyone looking to do a D60 swap too bookmark this pdf file it will come in real handy.

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/X510-2.PDF
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post #16 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 12:07 PM
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Never seen a 60 under a excursion..but with Ford anything is possible...
Sterling 10.25 NEVER used in a full size SD truck...Don't have a clue whats in a F150..

Dealer for: MoTech, Atlas, Dynatrac, Rock Krawler, ORO, Currie, Poison Spyder, Bilstein, Fox, SWAY-A-WAY, Ridid, Adams and Tom Woods DS's. And much more!


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post #17 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 12:21 PM
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Just reporting what people claim they have under their excursions. Some have reported a 248 tag and that is a d60.
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post #18 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 12:42 PM
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Re: Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt?

That's just it. The claim there 60s cause from looking from the outside there exactly the same.

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post #19 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 01:02 PM
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That's just it. The claim there 60s cause from looking from the outside there exactly the same.

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They claim the axle tag is a 248.... which is a d60. Mines a 256
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post #20 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 03:04 PM
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They claim the axle tag is a 248.... which is a d60. Mines a 256
Ohhh, youz gotz da SUPER 60!!!!
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post #21 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 03:52 PM
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Ohhh, youz gotz da SUPER 60!!!!
Fuck yeah brother... fatter tubes since I know you like em that way, plus that big joint for me.... ummm, 1550 joint.

But really, I gotta try and keep up with the likes of you... so it was this Super60 or I was going to build a steerable 14 bolt.... hmmm, I guess a Rockwell might follow you too?

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post #22 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 04:02 PM
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hmmm, I guess a Rockwell might follow you too?
or Axletech 4000s...

If you dont mind, what did you pay for the Super60?
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post #23 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 04:57 PM
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or Axletech 4000s...

If you dont mind, what did you pay for the Super60?
Got a set of axles... the Super60 and a Sterling 10.5. Complete, end to end with a tie rod and drag link for 1000... IDK, dumped about 8k into them (RCV, Detroit, high steer knuckles and arms, new BJs, cover, truss, gears, brakes, etc.). Slightly more than a bolt on front, but I also get a rear full floater in the deal (with detroit, cover, 300M shafts, truss, brakes) and plenty of upgrades front and rear not included in those bolt on axles (bigger brakes, larger shafts, 1550 joints, thicker tubes, bigger Cs and knuckles, larger UBs, etc.). And.... a junk yard full of replacements.

It could be done much cheaper. RCVs are a luxury... the stock shafts looked pretty beef and they will be my spares. They could have been utilized shaving about 3000. Options for the center section are limitless and could cost much less. Hell... weld the spiders for a free "locker," saving about 1200. Trusses may or may not be a requirement for your style wheeling and link setup. That would save 400. So really... it can be done for MUCH less. Depends on you really and what you want to do. A lot of these trucks came with limited slip and soon... the junk yards will have the later trucks with the locker too.

I went full custom on my brackets... so that cost is irrelevant to this discussion, but my understanding is that companies sell stock coil bracket kits for around 600.

Building a set of axles isn't cheap nor easy, as some seem to portray. It's not rocket science either... but you gotta be a hack like me if you want to play this game.... Sawzalls at the ready. lol It is much less expensive than the bolt on route and much more rewarding to do it yourself. Plus... in the end... I know what I got and intimate with how it goes together. When things break, I'll be in a better position to fix.

Last edited by abendx; 03-21-2013 at 06:03 PM.
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post #24 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 05:45 PM
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Re: Which front dana 60 and why? Old or new 14 bolt?

I cant agree more. Building your own junk you get so much more satisfaction. And a full blown learning experience. If something goes wrong you know how to fix the issue. Unlike guys who just drop there shit off at a shop to be done. Ask them a question and they have to dig through there receipts just to know what ur talkin about.

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post #25 of 61 Old 03-21-2013, 06:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepbronco1 View Post
One of many 1ton threads out there. Ive got a 98 14bolt and used great lakes offroad disck conversion with ebrake. Front is a 94 d60. If your poor and cheep like me and going to run coils and more stock setup get a 78-79 king pin. give ya a little more tube to weld to . If not just plan on some cast welding and a little more work. I took mine for a test drive today and im stoked! Updates tomorrow! Good luck man, its a handful of work and time consuming but ultimately it feels good to do it.
which type of caliper they use? Eldorado one's seems to suck, even more here in Québec where we have salted road

there is those too that can do the job

http://www.tsmmfg.com/3120.html

I didn't know Great lake offroad, great price!!!
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