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post #1 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 05:37 AM Thread Starter
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Question JK guru's...sponsors too!

Ok...because of PhilD (and yeah its Phil's fault! ) I am moving away from the Full Traction lift and looking hard at the Poly Performance Lift (3" lift only as I only want to run 35's and don't want to have to change driveshafts).

Why is the the Track Bar bracket better then an adj. Track bar?

Every time I see Phil's jeep its got something on it I want.

Anyway..

If I go the Poly Route can I just go with the Snergy II first then upgrade to the III later? POLY Performance guys need your input.

I am reading "some" on the Clayton Off Road stuff too...and there's look good too, but I will say the Poly stuff looks amazing...and if I can drive the vehicle at speed everyday 365 and go off road. I will be very happy. Its just got to be stable and not all over the road (i.e. I drive max at 75 and thats rarely, because its a jeep! )

Thanks guys..
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post #2 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 06:53 AM
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Thanks, blame me

I've seen the Full Traction 3" kit and it looks pretty good and to be well made. I don't think you'd go wrong with it. That said, I really like the quality and thought that went into the Poly Performance stuff. Given the choice I'd personally chose the Poly kit.

I'm not sure that a track bar bracket is better than an adjustable, but you will need the bracket to go with the high steer drag link in the Stage II kit. I've been driving around for a few weeks now with the high steer drag link and I'd definitely recommend it, it really improves the steering. The bracket takes care of the track bar length so you don't need an adjustable. You can add one later if you want to though.

One of the nice things about the Poly lineup is that you can use most of the products by themselves or as part of kit, and going from Stage II to Stage III should be pretty straightforward as it is only the upper control arms you will be adding. Which makes it a simple upgrade from II to III. To move up from I you need to install the high steer and bracket, and may well up with am adjustable track bar you don't necessarily need.
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post #3 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 07:03 AM
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A traction bar or really a panhard bar works as intended when the axle locating bar is parallel to the axle it is locating.

This keeps the geometry similar throughout the range of movement with the axle.

Do a google search on chassis design and panhard bars and you will learn much.

Ultra flexy and massive range of movement axles creates all kinds of engineering challenges and there are several ways to compensate but the principals are all still the same.
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post #4 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys...I am familiar with Panhard Rods etc as I have an Adj. under my Camaro (my other world)...so I am familiar with that.

I was just curious mainly because why does POLY use the bracket and stock track bar I guess because thats the best way to give everything parallel...

Anyway....your feedback is appreciated and Micheal I will check into that reading since I do a LOT of research before I buy.

Thanks again.
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post #5 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 08:11 AM
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Yeah I guess the easiest explanation is that they address different problems in different ways.
The problems are centering the axle under the jeep and correcting the arc of the trackbar which affects vertical movement of the axle. More angle=more arc=more side to side movement accompanying the up and down.

The adj bar only addresses getting the axle centered back under the jeep after you lift it and the arc of the bar swings the axle to one side and pushes it out of centerline. Adjust the bar out to center it back under and your inline again, but this does nothing about correcting the arc - ie. getting the bar back closer to parallel with the axle.

A bracket moves one of the bar mounting points to get some parallelism (like that? I just made that one up) back into the system. It also serves to help recenter the axle, since if you move the susp. 3", then move the bar mount 3", it should be back pretty close to the stock arc so the stock length should be groovy, which not only re-centers your axle but cuts some of the sideways arc out of the movement so it also cuts some of the axle shove when you hit bumps or dips that make the whole axle move up. The farther from parallel, the more side to side movement there is when the axle travels.

Downside to brackets- strength of factory welds.
the factory welds on the t-bar mount tabs on the axle have failed on a number of jks. When you use some types of the axle side brackets, you put more leverage on these welds and are probably more prone to breakage. BUT some of the manufacturers (ie. PolyPerf) have taken this weakness into account and built brackets that actually brace the mount and strengthen it. However to use them, you need to do some other stuff to make room - high steering mod, etc. The other option is to use a frame side drop bracket where the factory mounts seem plenty beefy to lower the frame side of the t-bar, which is what I did in the back. BDS makes one.

So umm yeah, I hope that explains what little bit I understand about the situation.


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post #6 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venom View Post
Downside to brackets- strength of factory welds.
the factory welds on the t-bar mount tabs on the axle have failed on a number of jks. When you use some types of the axle side brackets, you put more leverage on these welds and are probably more prone to breakage. BUT some of the manufacturers (ie. PolyPerf) have taken this weakness into account and built brackets that actually brace the mount and strengthen it. However to use them, you need to do some other stuff to make room - high steering mod, etc. The other option is to use a frame side drop bracket where the factory mounts seem plenty beefy to lower the frame side of the t-bar, which is what I did in the back. BDS makes one.
X2 I do not like many of the basic design axle mounted relocation brackets, they simply add too much leverage on to the already weak factory brackets. One of the first things I did when I had a Superlift kit was swap their axle mounted relocation bracket out for a Teraflex frame mounted one.

As already stated, a relocation bracket improves the track bar geometry, and adjustable track bar does not.

You aren't really using the high steer drag link to make room for the track bar bracket, you are using it in conjunction with it to keep the steering geometry good. Using just one of them would result in messed up steering geometry.

Last edited by PhilD; 12-06-2007 at 08:22 AM.
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post #7 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 08:46 AM
 
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To simplify what a lot of folks are saying above, the reason we went with a raised track bar was to keep the roll center higher, making the vehicle more stable. An adjustable track bar alone doesn't address this, and a frame side drop bracket makes it worse.

We're pretty confident that we have one of the best driving kits (especially when coupled with a well tuned shock) on and off road.
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post #8 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 09:12 AM Thread Starter
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Damn talk about some great information. This is what I needed to know..I mean I learned a new word today. Parrellism. (that word is too cool for me. )

Thanks Garrett. I really appreciate your input. I am leaning very heavily toward the Poly kit because I like what I see and the support we get here.

Thanks PhilD (cause I hate your damn awesome Jeep) and Micheal (yeah I hate you jeep too..damn supercharged lifted jeep..lol) and Venom for creating new and exciting words for me to use.

Seriously though thanks.
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post #9 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 09:46 AM
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I believe another factor to consider at the front is bump steer. Both the track bar and the drag link are attached at one end to the axle and at the other to the frame (drag link attached to frame through Pitman arm and steering box). When the axle moves up and down, both of these bars swing through an arc, as described in the other posts. If both bars are the same length and run parallel to eachother, then their arcs are the same and the side to side movement at the axle end of each bar is the same. The result of that is that when the axle moves up and down it also moves sideways due to the track bar arc and the drag link moves sideways the same amount due to its arc. The net result is that there should be no induced steering input due to the up and down axle movement.

On the other hand, if the two bars are not parallel they will swing on different arcs. When the axle moves up and down, then, it again moves sideways due to the track bar arc. In this case, though, the drag link (at the axle end) will move sideways a different amount since its arc is different. The net result of that is that some amount of steering input is induced due to the up and down axle movement and you may feel that as the vehicle veering to one side or the other.

When a relocation bracket is used at the front, it will change the "parallism" (very useful word) of the track bar and drag link and may result in the situation above. If the relocation bracket isn't used, the bars should remain relatively parallel and reduce the tendency.

Finding the right solution seems to be a compromise that results from properly considering all of these factors and figuring out which ones are the most important for the way we use our vehicles. My hat is off to the suspension guys that do this and come up with good off road and on road behavior!

Just a thought.
post #10 of 19 Old 12-06-2007, 03:16 PM
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4dr or 2dr? Stick or auto?

Those of you that think you know everything really annoy those of us that do!
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post #11 of 19 Old 12-07-2007, 04:27 AM Thread Starter
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I am driving an Auto 4dr Rubicon. And since my wife already drives a lifted TJ/LJ she has been giving me crap every time we go off roading with our jeep club about me parking in her shadow! This has GOT to stop!

Last edited by JeepDog; 12-07-2007 at 04:30 AM.
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post #12 of 19 Old 12-07-2007, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaggydoo View Post
To simplify what a lot of folks are saying above, the reason we went with a raised track bar was to keep the roll center higher, making the vehicle more stable. An adjustable track bar alone doesn't address this, and a frame side drop bracket makes it worse.

We're pretty confident that we have one of the best driving kits (especially when coupled with a well tuned shock) on and off road.
can you use the bracket with the stock tie rod and drag link. I 'm running 2.5 with a 3/4 spacer up front.
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post #13 of 19 Old 12-07-2007, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igofshn View Post
can you use the bracket with the stock tie rod and drag link. I 'm running 2.5 with a 3/4 spacer up front.
Your steering geometry would then be all messed up, as your track bar and drag link would not be close to parallel to each other. You may also have to mess with the bump stops to keep the bracket away from the frame.
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post #14 of 19 Old 12-07-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepDog View Post
I am driving an Auto 4dr Rubicon. And since my wife already drives a lifted TJ/LJ she has been giving me crap every time we go off roading with our jeep club about me parking in her shadow! This has GOT to stop!
The only difference between the stage 1 and stage 2 is that you get an adjustable track bar in the stage 1, the stage 2 includes the front track bar relocation bracket and the drag link flip kit, but does not include the track bar, you don't need an adjustable track bar, the bracket will re-center the axle. The difference in price is not very much, only $55 more for stage 2, but you will need a tapered reamer when you flip the drag link over which is an addition $70 but sometimes you can just borrow one from a buddy. The track bar relocation bracket also allows you to relocate the steering stabilizer up and out from underneath, you can do that with the stage 1 but it requires an additional bracket($30).

I would only do a stage 1 with a 3" lift, any more lift I would recommend a stage 2. I think the JK's drive better with the stage 2, but stage 1 still drives very well. It's basically up to you with the price difference and if you want to or can ream the steering knuckle for the drag link flip.

Those of you that think you know everything really annoy those of us that do!
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post #15 of 19 Old 12-07-2007, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks!! Much appreciated...

please tell me these springs are up to the task of bumpers.
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post #16 of 19 Old 12-08-2007, 12:59 AM
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my PP front springs are holding up great w/ a MOPAR bumper and a 12K winch


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post #17 of 19 Old 12-08-2007, 03:07 AM Thread Starter
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my PP front springs are holding up great w/ a MOPAR bumper and a 12K winch
Excellent....excellent.....thanks.
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post #18 of 19 Old 12-08-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepDog View Post
Thanks!! Much appreciated...

please tell me these springs are up to the task of bumpers.
Our springs will give you the stated lift with bumpers and winch, a little higher with stock bumpers.

Those of you that think you know everything really annoy those of us that do!
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post #19 of 19 Old 12-09-2007, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Now I can see why PhilD (remember I still hate Phil. ) and MikeW (I moved him to my hate list too! ) love you guys....damn I love this feedback. And since I drive my Jeep EVERYDAY, I am extremely happy with feedback and responses we get from our sponsors.

Thanks guys. I look forward to making my Lift purchase after the holidays.
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