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post #1 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 10:45 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Trouble with Brakes

I just replaced one of my front brake lines. I've bleed the system about 10 times. No air is comming out of the lines and the pressure is good because the fluid is shooting out a good 8" - 10" . I've rechecked all the fittings to make sure they are snug. Also, this is an extended SS braided line.

The problem is, I'm still having a spoongy pedal on the first push. Bleeding the lines should have fixed it, but it didn't. The first push of the pedal is spoongy. If I pump it, it gets firm by the 2nd or 3rd pump. We bleed the brakes in Drvr Fr/Pass Rr , then Pass Frnt/Drvr Rr sequence. Over and Over and Over again. No Air comes outta the lines. When the pedal is pushed the calipers move. The master cylinder never went dry and it's topped off with fuild each time the brakes are bleed. I'm at my wits end


Any advice or idea what it could be?

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Last edited by jkx0778; 02-16-2012 at 10:47 AM.
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post #2 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 11:15 AM
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I hate to say it but if on the first press of the petal its spongy and you can pump it up firm... its air in the system. Whenever I bleed brakes I always start at the bleeder furthest away from the master (right rear). Maybe give that a shot. You can also try bleeding the master as well. Normally you don't need to unless you've ran it empty but its worth a shot.

Hope you figure it out.

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post #3 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkx0778 View Post
.....We bleed the brakes in Drvr Fr/Pass Rr , then Pass Frnt/Drvr Rr sequence.
Well you usually start with the one furthest away from the Master Cylinder and work your way in. RR RH, RR LH, FRT RH, FRT LH unless you have a RH vehicle
You can try with just gravity bleeding without pushing on the pedal and knock with a hammer on the caliber while the brake fluid runs out of the bleeder. let it run for 10 minutes on each caliber and make sure to keep your reservoir topped up.


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post #4 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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yeah, we bleed the master cyl too. I've bleed the system AT LEAST 10 times. For the life of me, can't get the spoongy feel outta the F'N pedal NO AIR comes outta the lines. I know there should be air, but i get none. All I've been doing now is wasting fluid. No bubbles, no sound of air coming out. I guess I'll buy another bottle of BF and keep bleeding...and bleeding...and bleeding

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post #5 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Panamon Creel View Post
Well you usually start with the one furthest away from the Master Cylinder and work your way in. RR RH, RR LH, FRT RH, FRT LH unless you have a RH vehicle
yup, got mixed up. but I used almost a full bottle of BF bleeding the system and still spoongy pedal

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post #6 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 12:52 PM
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Disable the ESP/ABS system with the steering wheel dance, then bleed and see how it is. Furthest from master C to closest, in that order.

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post #7 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 12:58 PM
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Procedure To Turn ON (or OFF) The Permanent ESP Disable Feature:

Verify that the automatic transmission selector is in the "Park"¯ position, and that a manual transmission is in neutral gear.

Start the vehicle engine and wait approximately five (5) seconds for the system bulb check to complete.

Shift the transfer case into the 4H range position. Firmly set parking brake.

Turn the steering wheel until it is centered and the wheels are pointed straight ahead.

Turn the steering wheel one-half turn to the right (clockwise). HOLD steering wheel in this position.

Press and hold the ESP OFF button for 7 seconds. Release the ESP OFF button right after 7 seconds. Wait for chime.

Turn the steering wheel back to center, then turn the steering wheel one-half turn to the left (counterclockwise). HOLD the steering wheel in this position.

Press and hold the ESP OFF button for 7 seconds. Release the ESP OFF button right after 7 seconds. Wait for chime.

Turn the steering wheel back to center.
Press and hold the ESP OFF¯ button for 7 seconds. Release the ESP OFF button right after 7 seconds. Wait for chime.

Cycle the ignition switch to the OFF position

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post #8 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 01:34 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks 10jk. I'll give that a shot.

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post #9 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkx0778 View Post
....yeah, we bleed the master cyl too...
Well you shouldn't need to bleed the master unless you forgot to fill up and pulled air in (which you said didn't happen).
Get a big bottle of BF and run it through, flick the lines while bleeding and knock on the calibers to dislodge any trapped air there. If you still get the spongy feel thereafter then you may have gotten in some way shape or form air trapped in the abs control valve and need to go to someone that can do the abs bleed procedure.


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post #10 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 02:03 PM
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Have you checked the pads to make sure they are seated correctly, or not excessively worn?

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post #11 of 23 Old 02-16-2012, 11:30 PM
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I hate to say it but if on the first press of the petal its spongy and you can pump it up firm..
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post #12 of 23 Old 02-17-2012, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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started raining last night and in the 40*s

Bleed the brakes over and over. When still getting a spongy pedal, decided to bleed the master cyl, even though it never went dry. I'll trying tapping the lines and calipers while bleeding the brakes and the disable ESP, bleed brakes, & re-enable ESP as 10jk said above.

Checked the pads. They are seated correctly, calipers move w/out sticking, but are a little worn, but not near wear bars. The pedal didn't feel spongy before changing the drivers side front brakeline.

I'll probably work on it this weekend... if the cold ass rain stops long enough.

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post #13 of 23 Old 02-18-2012, 08:34 PM
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A couple things from my experience, which is similar to the OP's. Some of the braided stainless covered brake lines cause a bit of a spongy pedal as they have more "give" under pressure than do the stock rubber lines. The stainless is just a covering, the inner line is flexible plastic. Not all braided stainless lines are created equal. I initially replaced TF's supplied lines with "L" banjo lines from another supplier. As soon as I did I got the spongy pedal you describe.

Another thing to look into is the possibility that the ABS motor pump unit got some air in it. This is actually very unlikely, even if you swap out the master cylinder, but if it does occur you need to have a dealer run the abs bleed routine with their StarScan tool. However, that's usually only necessary when the unit itself has been replaced.

Your best bet is to try either a pressure or vacuum bleed using the sequence passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front. If you do that and you've run a few pints of fluid through it's highly unlikely there's any remaining air in the system.
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post #14 of 23 Old 02-18-2012, 11:07 PM
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did you press the caliper pistons back in, sometimes air can get in there especially after changing a line.
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post #15 of 23 Old 02-19-2012, 11:53 AM
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how are you bleeding the brakes?

i like to use a clear hose stuffed into a plastic bottle with the other end of the hose attached to the bleeder valve.
Have someone stomp the pedal 5 times and hold.
crack open the bleeder valve and close just before the pedal bottoms out.
repeat till no more bubbles.
Start farthest from MC

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post #16 of 23 Old 02-19-2012, 04:33 PM
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Have you tried driving it yet? When I did mine I thought it felt spongy on the first depression. But it drives and stops just fine.

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post #17 of 23 Old 02-19-2012, 08:16 PM
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I hope you figure this out. I replaced my brake lines with Crown SS ones and my brakes are spongy too. Everything else is exactly like you've posted and , like you, I'm pretty sure there is no air in the lines. My ESP/BAS has been disabled for 4 years, I don't think that has anything to do with it.


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post #18 of 23 Old 03-24-2012, 08:28 AM
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any updates on this?
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post #19 of 23 Old 03-24-2012, 05:47 PM
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Bear in mind JKs have a bit of natural "sponge" in the system. It's becoming a common gripe with folks who swap out to SS braided lines that their pedals feel spongy afterward. There's nothing magic about the JK's brake system that traps air.
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post #20 of 23 Old 03-24-2012, 05:53 PM
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Nobody has mentioned it yet, but are you bleeding the brakes properly? I've seen far too many people crack the bleeders and then press on the pedal. Of course, fluid shoots out far and they think they bled them properly.

The correct way is to have someone press on the pedel, and hold it down, while you slowly crack open the bleeder until fluid begins to come out. There should be no shooting of brake fluid. You'll see some bubbling and then solid fluid coming out slowly. Tighten the bleeder, and then the person holding the pedal down can release pressure.

It doesn't take much fluid at all to bleed a set of brakes, even if you do it multiple times, because there isn't much brake fluid loss. Only enough to get rid of the air bubbles. A few times at each corner is all it should take.

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post #21 of 23 Old 03-24-2012, 07:51 PM
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had the same issue with mine after putting the extended lines in… finally it felt right and when for a drive… first hard stop I didnt think it was going to stop. pumped twice and has worked perfect ever since.
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post #22 of 23 Old 03-25-2012, 08:18 AM
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There are three basic techniques for bleeding brakes: manual, someone pumps while someone else opens & closes the bleeders, pressure bleeding using a device that forces the fluid through the master, lines & calipers under pressure (that's how the factories do it), and vacuum, using a pump to draw the fluid through the system one circuit at a time. Each has it's plusses & minuses. Manual bleeding takes more man power, coordination, etc., and there's the risk on an older vehcle that the master cylinder seals can be damaged by debris in the bores. Pressure bleeding is really effective, but can make a giant mess if the cap on the master cylinder reservoir leaks. Also, it can waste a good bit of unused fluid. It's a technique that's best if you do a lot of vehicles regularly. Vacuum bleeding is fast & efficient, but requires that the bleeders be sealed with something like teflon tape.

Of the three I usually will pressure bleed using a neat small shop tool I got from Motive Power. It's a small pressure bleeder that employs various types of caps for the different master cylinder designs. They have one for the JK that fits & seals perfectly.

A trick I learned from another Forum, you can skip filling the tank with brake fluid and just use air pressure on the system. Top up the reservoir, pump up the Motive Power tank to 15 psi or so, bleed one caliper, check the reservoir level, move on to the next one, etc. Just make sure to stop & top up the master cylinder reservoir periodically. Works like a charm and you won't waste fluid.

The other method I use successfully is vacuum bleeding. There is a new kit on the market specifically for this method, but you can just use a Mighty Vac. Remove each bleed screw and reinstall them sealed with teflon tape to seal the threads. Top up the reservoir, then start at the passenger rear. Install the vacuum pump, pump it up to create a good vaccum & open the bleeder. All the air in the line & caliper will be drawn out first, then the fluid will start to flow. Keep the vaccum up with the pump, draw out a good amount of fluid, then move on to the next. The downside is that the bleeder and vacuum pump line at the nipple will probably seep a bit of air, so you won't know precisely when all the air's out of the system.

FWIW, I experienced this spongy pedal on mine as soon as I replaced the stock rubber lines with braided. The ones I used were good quality (Synergy). I must have pumped a few gallons of fluid through the system, I even took it to the dealer and had them run the ABS routine with the StarScan tool. There just wasn't any air in the system, but the brakes felt spongy and on steep inclines the brakes wouldn't hold the JK in place. Pedal would go all the way to teh stop inside the M/C. Last year I installed Teraflex's Big Brake kit, along with their master and all my braking issues are gone.

Last edited by SoK66; 03-25-2012 at 08:23 AM.
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post #23 of 23 Old 03-28-2012, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry for no updates. I've bleed the brakelines enough times to just resign to a spoongy pedal. Yup bleed them correctly. Tapped on the lines, calipers, and MC. I've gotten used to the pedal, so not too big of a deal.

I might not have mentioned that I had replaced the OEM brakelines with Crown SS brakelines about 2 years ago. The ones with Kevlar liners, etc. I was in an accident in Jan 2012 where my wheels were turned at full lock and my tire is what took the impact and smashed into the brakeline kinking it. So just the drivers side was replace, but was a different, no name brand line. I think I'll find the exact same brakeline as the others and change it out again.

but, again, I did get used to the pedal and the jeep stops when I want it to and holds pretty well.

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