Increasing caster promote dw? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:07 PM Thread Starter
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Increasing caster promote dw?

I decided to lengthen the lowers to 23" as recommended and now dw, real dw.

Prior to doing anything I removed the new fox ss and test drove it, no issues whatsoever.

I will admit having a slight shimmy between 53-60 mph after the tire rotation two weeks ago, and I adjusted the toe by 1/2 a turn to increase the toe in slightly about a month and a half ago.

I thought that increasing caster improve everything but the pinion angle?

Also the front ds has been out for a few months as I got a new one under warranty, I didn't want to screw that one up so I pulled it while I save for an after market.

Any thoughts before I drop the length on the lowers back to near stock length?

Thanks!

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Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #2 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:12 PM
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Increasing castor shouldn't worsen death wobble. If anything it should make it harder to occur. I think you have something else causing it and it's coincidence that it just not has happened.

You mentioned you increased your toe. You should be toed in slightly. Why did you increase it? What is your toe set at?

How are things like your balljoints and tie rod ends?

Also, I don't have stock measurements so how much are your lowers extended over stock?

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post #3 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:13 PM
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Try going back half of you put in and see what happens.


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post #4 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:15 PM
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I recommend about 4.5-4.7* caster.

More than that has lead to wobble issues for people--although, not full-on violent, rip-your-front-end apart DW.


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post #5 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:16 PM
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If the dw is directly after you adjusting the caster, I'd return it back to the way it was before even touching anything else. There are many things that get referred to as "should" or "shouldn't" when it comes to death wobble, not a ton of facts.

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post #6 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:23 PM Thread Starter
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Toe was set to stock and It has been recommended that increasing toe in is recommended and I had a hard time getting a accurate measurement so I figured 1/2 a turn would be fine.

As far as length I'm now at 23" center of eye to center to eye on the drivers side and the passenger is set 1/16 longer to reduce the pull. I was right at 1/4 shorter on both sided but the jeep was flighty and the steering loose.

I had returned the arms to stock length when I installed the Aev brackets but since they didn't do anything for me I removed them, sold them to 'Cuda but for some dumb reason I didn't lengthen the arms back.

Previous to the Aev brackets I was at 23" on the drivers and 23 1/8th" on the passenger side, never a issue but that was when I was rolling the worn out rubi shoes.

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #7 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:28 PM
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As mentioned already, there can be about a million causes and a million different fixes.

I'd bet with the minor adjustments you did, those aren't the causes. It would be worth going back to those settings and see if it's fixed. However, I'd bet there are things contributing to your issues, such as ball joints and / or tie rod ends. Those are the biggest culprits with JK DW.

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post #8 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I have the poly ball joints that I need to get installed, trying to do gears, sleeves, seals and ball joints all at the same time, guess my timeframe just moved up.

Just irritating that it didn't happen until I lengthened the darn things, I know it has something to do with the poorly balanced tires and probable worn ball joints are the cause but still odd.

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #9 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 06:04 PM Thread Starter
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So I went out and finally got my wife in it to rock the wheel back and fourth, narrowed down a slight "clunk" at the pitman arm where it connects and the other end. It is a poly tie rod flip kit and I used the community reamer to ream it, I guess that I didnt get them tight enough but I remember tourqing them im almost positive. I'm sort of cracked out anal about going above and beyond to do things perfect.

Anyway I tightened them as tight as I possibly could, I could not get the torque wrench on either of them but I will bet it is in the 135-145 ftlb area as I've dropped the front lowers 5 times each today and torqued them each time.

Also even with all of the f911 hardware in and torqued to 140 ftlbs and hitting getting dw at 45 mph you could see where the washers had moved. Freaking crazy!

Also I want everyone to know that finds this for troubleshooting:

I have front and rear, upper and lower poly trackbar reinforcement brackets installed
Front and rear jks adjustable teackbars
Jks Acos in the front, rears are sitting on my workbench
Everything has always been torqued by 10-15 ftlbs with nickel never seize for less friction

I state all the above so anyone won't get complacent like I obviously had and haven't checked for tightening throughout in a long while thinking that everything that could be done has been.

I put the ss back on and the dw is gone, I have no clue why I couldn't induce it before when I first removed it for the initial test drive but now it has made it go away for the time being. Needless to say the rubi will be with Allen at 249 driveline if he can do it next Saturday. There goes another 1500. Fu....

Is there the possibility of over tightening the tie rod end joints and messing something up there?

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #10 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 06:36 PM
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The stabilizer is just stopping the wobble from getting out of hand. Basically it's just masking the issue.

My money is on ball joints.

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post #11 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah I bought the poly ones during the pre order and have been holding out, I wanted to either drill the plug welds and rotate the pinion up or get a pro rock 44 housing before I had to do something, oh well here goes my pocket book.

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #12 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 07:04 PM
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I've never done it, and I have heard of it being done before, but I don't think rotating the tubes is something that is too easy. Also, with one of the upper mounts being on the pumpkin, your upper arms would be different lengths so you would have to relocate the other upper mount.

I've actually thought about cutting my tube near the lower control arms and rotating the knuckles that way. With an inner sleeve inside welded to the tube, the axle tube butt welded, and a shell on the outside, I don't see a strength issue coming up and I easily correct the caster for a lifted JK.

Anyway, ball joints are relatively easy to install yourself. They are a bit time consuming, but you can do the work yourself and easily save a fair chunk of change.

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post #13 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rob4607 View Post
Yeah I bought the poly ones during the pre order and have been holding out, I wanted to either drill the plug welds and rotate the pinion up or get a pro rock 44 housing before I had to do something, oh well here goes my pocket book.
With only three inches of lift I don't think a cut/rotate is necessary. You should be able to get a good caster/pinion angle. What is your caster set at?

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post #14 of 20 Old 02-12-2012, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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The Acos add a minimum of 1.5 inches which puts me at 4.5" at least in the front.

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #15 of 20 Old 02-14-2012, 05:52 PM
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Just a thought...
You say you have a JKS front track bar.
I had an earlier version and after much stressing and searching I found the cause of my DW was the track bar itself flexing.
Have someone turn steering wheel back and forth again and see if the track bar itself is flexing. JKS will warranty it if it is.

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post #16 of 20 Old 02-14-2012, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fftri View Post
Just a thought...
You say you have a JKS front track bar.
I had an earlier version and after much stressing and searching I found the cause of my DW was the track bar itself flexing.
Have someone turn steering wheel back and forth again and see if the track bar itself is flexing. JKS will warranty it if it is.
If you had setup the trackbar--rode for a while--THEN CHANGED THE CASTER--without loosening/retorquing the trackbar !!

There's a good chance the track bar bushings are the culprit, hard to say !

Good luck

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post #17 of 20 Old 02-14-2012, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, I should have stated that, it is the newer one. I got in on the northridge4x4 swap deal.

I'm looking for a ball joint tool set and all the other tools needed to swap them out. Had the tires balanced and it took a whole lot of weight on both fronts. It didn't really help, if ball joints don't fix it I'm going for a ride down 18 mile beach in 4h driving real slow....

2008 JK 4Dr Rubicon
Stone white
Mygig W/Uconnect working.
Hard top/Auto tranny
First mod, dog slobber.
Painted hard top
Spidertraxx 1.5 spacers
Teraflex 3" lift
Currie front lower control arms
JKS front and rear adj. track bars
Euroefx HID kit, high/low beam and fogs
Shrockworks rear full width, tire carrier

Post count from the "other" place when i was following the "herd" was 692 on 4-2-09, not a noob...

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post #18 of 20 Old 02-15-2012, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
I recommend about 4.5-4.7* caster.
This is very close to factory spec (within .5*). With a lift I'd be worried about drive line vibration and possible t-case destruction. How did you arrive at your measurement and recommendation?
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post #19 of 20 Old 02-15-2012, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
I recommend about 4.5-4.7* caster.

More than that has lead to wobble issues for people--although, not full-on violent, rip-your-front-end apart DW.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynatrac View Post
This is very close to factory spec (within .5*). With a lift I'd be worried about drive line vibration and possible t-case destruction. How did you arrive at your measurement and recommendation?
Not related to the problem, but thought I'd throw this in here...

Hold down ALT and type 0176 will give you this į, as in 4.5į
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post #20 of 20 Old 02-15-2012, 10:29 AM
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I had this issue on a 08 4 door Rubi. If I put the castor down to around 2 degrees the DW would go away. Sold the jeep.... Good luck let us know what you find.
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