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post #1 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 06:46 AM Thread Starter
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Alignment Results

Took my Rig last week to Firestone and got the lifetime alignment. Couple days before I did that I replaced my bent tie rod center link and did a DIY toe adjustment with the gauge from harbor freight....forget this tool is all I have to say....
They didn't give me the before results but said Toe was WAY off.

so here are the corrected results:

Front left

Camber: -1.0 Specified Range: -0.6 0.1
Caster: 2.2 Specified Range: 3.7 4.7
Toe: 0.13 Specified Range: 0.07 0.13

Front right

Camber: -0.8 Specified Range: -0.6 0.1
Caster: 1.9 Specified Range: 3.7 4.7
Toe: 0.09 Specified Range: 0.07 0.13

Front


Cross Camber: -0.1 Specified Range: -0.5 0.5
Cross Caster: 0.4 Specified Range: -0.7 0.7
Cross SAI: -0.2
Total Toe: 0.21 Specified Range: 0.14 0.26


Rear:
Rear Thrust Angle: -0.03 Specified Range: -0.25 0.25


The Jeep drives A Lot straighter and better now and the cupping on the front tires already smoothed out some after only 2 days of driving.
I ordered Rustys 3.25" coils & lower control arms, 3/4" front spacers, OME Long Travel Shocks and the Poly Performance rear track bar bracket to further improve ride quality.


Question I have is; Does the out of spec camber indicate slightly bent C's?

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post #2 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 06:55 AM
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Sounds like something's bent or the ball joints are worn.

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post #3 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 11:31 AM
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camber being off would have to be due to something being bent.

your caster is waaaaaaaayyyy too low also. adjustable control arms should take care of that.
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post #4 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 11:36 AM
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FWIW, mine was pretty whacked too, right off the showroom floor. Without adjust-ability you are relying on the factory getting it right when they welded on your axle mounts etc. Apparently they were not even close.

I have a friend who worked for Jeep for 20 some odd years. He indicated that the factory alignment machine probably hasn't been adjusted and checked since the day they set it up.
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post #5 of 56 Old 03-02-2009, 09:20 PM
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The only problem with most alignment shops is they will set your rig to factory specs.

Once its lifted and you run bigger tires, you really have to set it right, NOT to factory specs so to speak. My example is they set my toe to 1/4 and it should be 1/8 with 37's

Open to opinions here too... Planning on opening a shop soon so would love input to these kind of topics.

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post #6 of 56 Old 03-03-2009, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfj aka tambil View Post
The only problem with most alignment shops is they will set your rig to factory specs.

Once its lifted and you run bigger tires, you really have to set it right, NOT to factory specs so to speak. My example is they set my toe to 1/4 and it should be 1/8 with 37's

Open to opinions here too... Planning on opening a shop soon so would love input to these kind of topics.
i am a front end/alignment tech at my dealership and agree totally. there will always be some deflection in your tierod ends. the larger the tires installed, the more deflection you are likely to experience and the more + toe you should give the front end. for instance: a stock 08 f350 4x4 ideally runs at ~0.08 degrees total toe in. of the lifted trucks that i have aligned (35" and 37" tires, i tend to go as high as 0.18 degrees. mind you a f350 has heavier front end parts (less deflection), and each truck and driver are different. so it really comes down to how the tires are wearing and driver complaints (pulls on rutted road, under/over steer...)
that said, the other front end tech believes that there should be no problem running the same toe as factory tires on a lifted truck. so there are many different opinions and each has merit. so if you get an alignment and it still pulls or wears tires, just because it is in spec does not mean all is good. find a good tech and test drive with him/her to help verify your concern.

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post #7 of 56 Old 03-03-2009, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnaught6 View Post
camber being off would have to be due to something being bent.
Or it came that way, mine was very similar from the day I got it.

Quote:
your caster is waaaaaaaayyyy too low also. adjustable control arms should take care of that.
My caster is lower, but depending on what drive shafts you have, the amount of lift, tire size, gear ratio, etc, you have to sacrifice some caster in order to prevent drive shaft vibration.

FWIW With my set up I find that caster only badly adversely effects steering when below 1°.
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post #8 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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was at the shop again after installed all the new parts. They had a "tech" who never did an alignment do it on my jeep because the alignment tech wasn't there....he didn't even get the toe in spec so I will have to go back some other time.
the caster shows 4.8 left and 4.6 right. should I turn the right control arm end once to bring it closer to the 4.8? Should I shoot for 5 degrees? I have stock drive shafts and wonder about driveline vibrations...are they really noticeable or can they be light and unnoticed?

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post #9 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 09:44 AM
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I do know that camber on stock rubi's are off from the dealer. I had brand new ball joints installed and even the new joints put it at .6 and .8. Not all may be off, but from I has seen and spoken to people they are...offset ball joint are the only way to fix this so I am told.

Last edited by MoMud; 03-25-2009 at 08:38 AM.
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post #10 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 07_Rubi View Post
the caster shows 4.8 left and 4.6 right. should I turn the right control arm end once to bring it closer to the 4.8? Should I shoot for 5 degrees?
4.6-4.8° should be plenty of caster, I doubt you'd notice any difference going to 5°. Max left-right difference is 0.65°, so you are also well within spec.


Quote:
I have stock drive shafts and wonder about driveline vibrations...are they really noticeable or can they be light and unnoticed?
I doubt you have any front drive shaft vibration with a factory shaft. Usually it is noticeable at a certain speed, somewhere between 50 and 60 mph, and is distinct enough to be noticeable. Often it will just happen for a few mph range, but sometimes will start at certain speed and continue to get worse as speed increases.
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post #11 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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cool, thx for the info...that will save me some work...

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post #12 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 05:07 PM
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Before I straightened my inner c I had 1.3 degrees on the left now its not in range but 0.7 is better and with the evolution gussets its not going anywhere.

With 5.5 inches of lift and a CV driveshaft I am running 2.5 degrees of caster to get rid of vibes. The only issue with adjusting caster to set pinion angle is a loose feeling in the steering wheel.


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post #13 of 56 Old 03-24-2009, 05:50 PM
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Great info guys!

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post #14 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 06:41 AM
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bumping to top

So, i had my jeep at the dealership for another reason and they did a check on mine.

Here are my results as is (nothing has been fixed)
LEFT FRONT
Camber= Range Should be 0.0 to -.05 = mine -.07 - Bad
Caster = Range Should be 3.6 to 1.6 = mine 2.4 - Good
Toe= Range Should be 0.07 to 0.13 = mine .15 - Bad

RIGHT FRONT
Camber = Range Should be -0.5 to 0.0 = mine -.07 Bad
Caster= Range Should be 1.6 to 3.6 = mine 2.6 = Good
Toe = Range Should be 0.13 to 0.07 = mine 0.16 = Bad

Front Range Should be = 0.14 to 0.26 = mine 0.31 = Bad
Steer Ahead Range Should be = -0.05 to 0.05 = mine 0.00 = Good


LEFT REAR
Camber = -.0.3
Toe = 0.16
Right Rear
Camber = -0.6
Toe = 0.03

Rear

Total Toe = 0.19
Thrust Angle = Range Should be -0.25 to 0.25 = mine 0.07 Good

They suggested that i should replace the ball joints to off set ball joints to fix. I'm not sure if they are just blowing smoke my way or if an " 4 wheel alignment" at a tire store will fix this.

If anybody out there has more info to share and what should do to fix this issue, please let me know.

Last edited by Grant211; 05-24-2009 at 07:05 AM.
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post #15 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 04:38 PM
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They are blowing smoke. Adjusting your toe settings takes about 15 minutes and a basic wrench or sockets set, a measuring tape, and a pair of channel locks or equal.

Your camber is a little out, but equeal on both sides. So personally I would not worry about it. Do you have any signs of the tires wearing heavy on the inside?

Its really not as bad as they would have you believe. Sadly one of the ways many shops make money is by UP selling you things you may not really need. The worst of course is the shops selling you things you absolutely don't need.

quick edit.. a four wheel alignment will not do a thing in this case. I still haven't found a shop that can do a real Four Wheel Drive alignment (different then a four wheel alignment)

My shop will be doing this, but won't be open till mid summer depending on construction.

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Last edited by bfj aka tambil; 05-24-2009 at 04:41 PM.
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post #16 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 06:39 PM
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thanks for the quick reply!!

You put my mind at ease!

you may not know this, but i'm not mechanically inclined. You can ask Rooster to confirm Sounds like i just need to take it in somewhere to get the toe aligned properly

I never noticed tire wearing on the inside. I'm going to pick up a tire tread depth to keep track.

Keep me in mind when your shop opens up... I'll definately be one of your customers.

I didn't even know i had a problem till the service guy came back and said my alignment is all out of wack. I never got an alignment after i put on the wheels and tires, so i thought that could be the issue.

Last edited by Grant211; 05-24-2009 at 06:49 PM.
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post #17 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 10:38 PM
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If you have 4" of lift I would adjust your front control arms to give you a minimum of 5 degrees of castor. I'm running 6 degrees on mine and the handling is much improved IMO.
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post #18 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfj aka tambil View Post
Your camber is a little out, but equeal on both sides. So personally I would not worry about it. Do you have any signs of the tires wearing heavy on the inside?
My shop will be doing this, but won't be open till mid summer depending on construction.
Perhaps you, or someone else can answer a question of mine about camber. I have my caster and toe in dialed in but I'm concerned about camber. When I look at mine from straight on it looks like the camber is way off (with the top of the tires leaning in). As a way to quantify it I cut a piece of wood spacer that set agaist the rim and stuck out enough that I could put a 24" level on it. Both rt and left have the top of the rim in 1/8" more than the bottom of the rim. The camber measurement is given in degrees which is meaningless to me. My math skills are way rusty but if the online calculator I found is correct it shows an angle degree of 0.4. But that is way off from the 0.0 to 0.05 mentioned above. If the top is in is it minus or positive camber?

Moog lists an adjustable angle lower ball joint that provides up to 1.75 degrees of correction. Would this fix my problem? Do I need to worry about this. FWIW I have ORE's C gussets and they went on early on before I pushed it hard. I've never been airborne either. I do have 4 dr and it is heavily laden.

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post #19 of 56 Old 05-24-2009, 11:05 PM
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my tires lean in some at the top and so does my brother's unlimited...I honestly thought this must be normal on the JK...

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post #20 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfj aka tambil View Post
They are blowing smoke. Adjusting your toe settings takes about 15 minutes and a basic wrench or sockets set, a measuring tape, and a pair of channel locks or equal.

Your camber is a little out, but equeal on both sides. So personally I would not worry about it. Do you have any signs of the tires wearing heavy on the inside?

Its really not as bad as they would have you believe.
X2 Unless you are getting excessive tire wear on the front inside edges I would not worry about it. I had 0.8° and 0.9° camber the day I had my Jeep and it caused no issues.

The toe in is not excessive, but can easily be adjusted.

Your alignment isn't "perfect", but it's close enough that I wouldn't worry about it unduly.
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post #21 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yoda13 View Post
my tires lean in some at the top and so does my brother's unlimited...I honestly thought this must be normal on the JK...
It seems that many JK's have about 0.7°-1.0° of camber, I've noticed it a lot on other JK's too.
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post #22 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by river2c View Post
If you have 4" of lift I would adjust your front control arms to give you a minimum of 5 degrees of castor. I'm running 6 degrees on mine and the handling is much improved IMO.
If you are running a front aftermarket driveshaft you very likely cannot set the caster to 5° with 4" of lift without causing driveshaft vibration. With an aftermarket driveshaft you have to find a compromise between caster and pinion angle.
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post #23 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 10:29 AM
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Two things on camber.

If the top of the tires are closer then the bottoms.. you have a negative camber. The problem with driveway measurements is that a typical tire will bulge on the bottom and this will throw off your measurement attempts. If you lift both tires off the ground you would get a better measurement and I don't think it would be altered since it is a solid axle.

Other then "c" gussets or offset ball joints it's not adjustable on solid axles.

Also its ok to run some negative camber.

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post #24 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant211 View Post
Keep me in mind when your shop opens up... I'll definately be one of your customers.

I didn't even know i had a problem till the service guy came back and said my alignment is all out of wack. I never got an alignment after i put on the wheels and tires, so i thought that could be the issue.
Thanks for the support...

Just remember there isn't much they can or will do for an alignment.. MOST shops will only go by the book for a stock vehicle. They siimply don't know how to adjust for modifications.

A typical shop will try to scare you into spending money you really just don't have to. Sadly they are worse then attorneys. LOL

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post #25 of 56 Old 05-25-2009, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfj aka tambil View Post
Two things on camber.

If the top of the tires are closer then the bottoms.. you have a negative camber. The problem with driveway measurements is that a typical tire will bulge on the bottom and this will throw off your measurement attempts. If you lift both tires off the ground you would get a better measurement and I don't think it would be altered since it is a solid axle.

Other then "c" gussets or offset ball joints it's not adjustable on solid axles.

Also its ok to run some negative camber.
I know what you're saying about the tire bulge. When I tried that at first it showed about half inch in at the top. That's why I cut an 18" piece of wood that just sat inside the lip of the wheel and spaced out so my level didn't touch the tires. That's how I came up with 1/8" in at the top - it was basically measuring off the wheel only.

I do gave C2 gussets and am wondering whether I have bent the axle tubes and if it's worth doing anything about it. PhilD mentioned he had .8 and .9 camber (but didn't mention if it was positive or negative but I've never seen a JK look like it had positive so I'll assume it was negative) and mine looks like it's (if the online angle calculator I dound is correct) -0.4 degrees. Should I just leave it alone or go with adj ball joints to bring it closer to spec. Moog offers adj lowers. Other than looking a bit funny it doesn't seem to be causing any problems

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