Evo double down - Page 2 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 15Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #26 of 56 Old 04-29-2019, 06:08 PM
Granite Guru
 
rockystock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 309
Garage
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by aus-jeep View Post
Yay...it's like a short arm and a long arm combined.
Just what everyone's looking for, unless they want radius arms of course.

I generally like their stuff, but Metalcloak makes some weird choices
rockystock is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #27 of 56 Old 04-29-2019, 06:33 PM
Granite Guru
 
rockystock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 309
Garage
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
Those lowers should be good rock catchers. Good geometry up front is hard with the lack of space for the frame side mounts. You are better off off road with the short arm.
Still better than RK
coilrod likes this.
rockystock is offline  
post #28 of 56 Old 04-29-2019, 08:19 PM
JKO Addict!
 
thedirtman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: southwest reno, nv
Age: 51
Posts: 4,235
Feedback: 0 reviews

Just about anything is better then RK

Some build info here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


[COLOR="Red"]New to jeeps, check this link
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
thedirtman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #29 of 56 Old 04-29-2019, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Ejburton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 9
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLarry View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ejburton View Post
Thedirtman I plan on sticking with 35's for now since i still have the stock Dana 30 and the crappy 3.21 gears. I do hope to upgrade this in the near future but they work for now. As for the type of trails I do I dont think coil overs will be necessary.
What trails are you running on your 35s, 321 gears and dana 30 front axle will coilovers be "necessary"? If your desert prerunning other things on your set up need to be addressed not just coilovers. I think you need to do more research or join a club this way guys with experience will steer you in the right direction. Just saying
sorry I might have had some typo issues going, coil overs are not necessary for what I do. I just do some trail rides on the weekends. No dessert running here in WV. Mainly creeks and hills.
Ejburton is offline  
post #30 of 56 Old 04-29-2019, 10:53 PM
Rock God
 
ChuckTheRipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Chester, WV
Age: 26
Posts: 909
Feedback: 0 reviews

Whereabouts in WV are you located? Iím in Chester.
ChuckTheRipper is offline  
post #31 of 56 Old 04-30-2019, 05:16 AM Thread Starter
Newbie
 
Ejburton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 9
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckTheRipper View Post
Whereabouts in WV are you located? I’m in Chester.
Moundsville
Ejburton is offline  
post #32 of 56 Old 05-03-2019, 09:18 AM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
We measured like 10" of axle shift with that kit that we installed.
This statement has bothered me. I would like to know what you are calling axle shift. Total front/back movement is about 2” difference between full compression and full droop. There’s a track bar, so what am I missing?
Conquistador is offline  
post #33 of 56 Old 05-06-2019, 07:09 AM
JKO Addict!
 
ALASHA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,107
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquistador View Post
This statement has bothered me. I would like to know what you are calling axle shift. Total front/back movement is about 2Ē difference between full compression and full droop. Thereís a track bar, so what am I missing?
Pretty sure he means left to right?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ALASHA is offline  
post #34 of 56 Old 05-06-2019, 11:41 AM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

If it’s left to right, then it will perform exactly the same as any suspension that retains the track bar. I still don’t see the amount of movement he is talking about.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquistador View Post
This statement has bothered me. I would like to know what you are calling axle shift. Total front/back movement is about 2” difference between full compression and full droop. There’s a track bar, so what am I missing?
Pretty sure he means left to right?
Conquistador is offline  
post #35 of 56 Old 05-06-2019, 11:45 AM
JKO Addict!
 
ALASHA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,107
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquistador View Post
If itís left to right, then it will perform exactly the same as any suspension that retains the track bar. I still donít see the amount of movement he is talking about.
That amount of movement will cause quite a bit of undesired crab crawl. Other suspensions try to minimize this by using longer track bars, different brackets or a combination of the two to keep the track bar as parallel as possible at ride height thereby reducing the amount of axle shift during suspension cycle.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ALASHA is offline  
post #36 of 56 Old 05-06-2019, 05:32 PM
JKO Addict!
 
thedirtman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: southwest reno, nv
Age: 51
Posts: 4,235
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Pretty sure he means left to right?
Front to rear as in rear steer.

Some build info here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


[COLOR="Red"]New to jeeps, check this link
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
thedirtman is offline  
post #37 of 56 Old 05-06-2019, 07:44 PM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

So, here is my suspension at full droop. You can see the center of the bump stop pad is roughly 2” from the makeshift plum bob.

Full compression is lined up to the center of the pad.

I don’t see how it could ever get near 10” of front to back movement. The bars that go from the cantilever to the axle wouldn’t work on that either. The further drooped, that bar moves back. I’m real curious to see what your setup looked like to react that way. Do you have any pictures?
Attached Images
 
Conquistador is offline  
post #38 of 56 Old 05-07-2019, 06:21 PM
JKO Addict!
 
thedirtman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: southwest reno, nv
Age: 51
Posts: 4,235
Feedback: 0 reviews

Stuff one wheel and droop the other, measure at the tires, not inside the control arms.

Some build info here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


[COLOR="Red"]New to jeeps, check this link
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
thedirtman is offline  
post #39 of 56 Old 05-08-2019, 06:50 AM
JKO Addict!
 
ALASHA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,107
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
Stuff one wheel and droop the other, measure at the tires, not inside the control arms.
Now Im really scratching my head. What in specifically EVO's geometry would cause that?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ALASHA is offline  
post #40 of 56 Old 05-09-2019, 08:09 PM
Rock God
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 889
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Now Im really scratching my head. What in specifically EVO's geometry would cause that?
Outboard lower control arms that have a lot of downward angle at ride height. This happens when you keep the axle lowers below the axle line, but have the frame lowers up in a high clearance position above the frame rail. Lots of kits have this problem, it's not just EVO. It's what happens when you make a long arm kit but aren't willing to do a ton of fab work to make it awesome, which is obviously what plenty of kits do.

This creates crazy bad rear steer.

Companies like Synergy solve this in their long arm kit by having the frame lowers sitting down below the frames, but then you lose ground clearance.

If you want it all with high ground clearance and low rear steer, you have to have your axle lowers at the axle tube height to keep the links flatter. If you really want to nearly eliminate rear steer, you have to inboard the frame side of the lower control arms, but that obviously means gas tank relocation which the kits just don't want to do. Only one that actually does a truly excellent suspension is the Genright elite kit.


That said, I used to have a lot of rear steer, my RAA angle was double-digit in the rear (recently decreased it a ton but still far from zero). I never had a problem before where I wished I had less rear steer. Sure anyone can find a video of someone rock crawling and say "if they didn't have severe rear steer, it would have done that line". Ok great, but for every one of those videos, you can also come up with a scenario where having rear steer actually helps you keep your line. At the end of the day you just have to know how to drive your rig and compensate for what weird things it's going to do. Nice if you don't have rear steer, but it's not as bad as some people make it out to be in my opinion. There are other much more important reasons to have flat lower links.

Last edited by christensent; 05-09-2019 at 08:12 PM.
christensent is offline  
post #41 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 06:30 AM
JKO Addict!
 
ALASHA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 8,107
Feedback: 0 reviews

Ok so its an issue with their link geometry and not the actual DTD cantilever set up. I was always under the impression that because of packaging with the cantilever, their track bar was too short (and not flat enough at ride height) for the amount of travel that suspension produces and caused a lot of left to right motion.


As for the rear lower control arm, whats the benefit of inboarding it? Cant you produce the same result by mounting the frame side flush with the frame and moving the axle side up to just below the tube? You would have to solve some clearance issues with the body mount.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ALASHA is offline  
post #42 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 07:53 AM
Rock God
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 889
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Ok so its an issue with their link geometry and not the actual DTD cantilever set up. I was always under the impression that because of packaging with the cantilever, their track bar was too short (and not flat enough at ride height) for the amount of travel that suspension produces and caused a lot of left to right motion.


As for the rear lower control arm, whats the benefit of inboarding it? Cant you produce the same result by mounting the frame side flush with the frame and moving the axle side up to just below the tube? You would have to solve some clearance issues with the body mount.
I'm not sure about track bar length, but otherwise there's no problem with the cantilever setup on axle steer. The big down fall of the cantilever is that the mounts are really close together so there's a lot less roll stability (more sway-bar need than if they were far apart). Essentially it's the equivalent of an inboard coilover mount, which is far inferior to outboard coilovers.


As for lower control arms, you indeed want them flatter so raising both axle and frame together rather than just frame is a big step in the right direction. It's not the entire solution though. You really want the axle mounts to be much further apart than the frame mounts, which necessitates having the frame side inboard. You can envision how this helps prevent rear steer. If the frame sides are closer together than the axle sides, then during articulation the side that is extending has its axle side control arm bracket traveling inward closer to the plane in the front-to-back axis passing through the frame bracket. This motion counters the axle steer induced by having the control arm traveling down. On the other hand if the frame sides are further out than the axle, then during articulation the side that is extending has its axle side control arm bracket traveling even further away from the frame bracket which makes rear steer even worse.

Essentially, having the frame mounts closer together than the axle directly counters the imperfection of having control arms that aren't infinitely long, with regard to rear steer at least. This is the basis for a double triangulated suspension. Triangulated uppers prevent the side-to-side travel you get from a track bar, and triangulated lowers prevent rear steer (hence a single-triangulated suspension still has rear steer).
ALASHA and j3ff3ry_j33p like this.
christensent is offline  
post #43 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 03:53 PM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

That last post was helpful in understanding some of the concern. I still need to cycle the suspension extremes and see what the reality comes out to.

The EVO high clearance rear arms are both mounted outside the frame. They are almost straight front to back, so I see how at full droop it would pull the axle forward more than if it were inboard.

Edit: the track bar is the stock bar.

Another good point you made is how inboard the cantilever mounts to the axle. I wonder if there’s a way to fix this.

These are things that I didn’t know/understand before I bought the system. I wanted a kit instead of one off fabricating because my time is limited. I wanted to do the work myself, but didn’t want to go through the steep learning curve. A kit made sense, but I guess the learning curve is inevitable.

There’s just not a lot of info out there about JK Kits with coilovers and bypasses. I try to avoid that other site, but it has the most info out there. Take it all with a grain of salt.

So far I don’t have a lot of drive time on this setup, but it seems to handle pretty well. It’s predictable on the road, and I haven’t taken it off road yet. Getting bugs worked out of the Motech kit first.

I sure could have used a thread like this before I bought it. Not sure yet if that would have changed the outcome though.
Attached Images
     
Conquistador is offline  
post #44 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 04:25 PM
Granite Guru
 
rockystock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 309
Garage
Feedback: 0 reviews

Just curious - how much BL is that, and is it part of the EVO kit?

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
rockystock is offline  
post #45 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 05:21 PM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

Sorry, BL?

Edit: Body Lift, got it.

It’s stacked washers welded together and painted real pretty. It’s about 5/8” and was needed for the engine. Nothing to do with the suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockystock View Post
Just curious - how much BL is that, and is it part of the EVO kit?

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
rockystock likes this.

Last edited by Conquistador; 05-10-2019 at 05:24 PM.
Conquistador is offline  
post #46 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 05:49 PM
JKO Addict!
 
thedirtman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: southwest reno, nv
Age: 51
Posts: 4,235
Feedback: 0 reviews

You don't see much info on coil overs and bypasses is because it is a total waste of money on most set ups and people buy coil overs and bypass shocks for the bling. Almost nobody with the EVO stuff actually does any tuning on the system to get the most out of the $10k you spent on it. "but its EVO tuned" Thats total marketing bullshit. Bypass shocks are sensitive to weight and up/down ratio as well as what you are going to do with it. Their valving is pretty generic as well. Ones I have opened were just a progressive stack. Most people that run their kits also run them too low and have an unbalanced up/down ratio where you are basically running on the bump stop zone and not really using the main compression zone. Running them at low lift height also means that most people do not have any preload in there set up to make the shocks more responsive.

One thing that would help the rear steer is moving the axle lower control arm mount up so it is more centered on the axle. This will flatten out the arm a bit and give you more clearance under the axle.

Some build info here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


[COLOR="Red"]New to jeeps, check this link
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
thedirtman is offline  
post #47 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 06:22 PM
Wheeler
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 47
Feedback: 0 reviews

I hear you that there's a lot of people just looking for the bling factor. I was afraid that there was so much in the market that caters to them, that's why I didn't get just a coil over kit. I don't like how the coil overs are at severe angles in the rear. That seemed like too much form over function for me.

I also agree with you that most people won't tune their suspension, and that's going to boil down to the fact that you cannot expect people to understand the complexities of shock tuning and what changes can do for the ride. There's not a dumbed down shock that will get people 90% of the way there. It takes a specialist or someone to dedicate serious time to understand it. I believe money spent on a pro tuning shocks is money well spent. I was so disappointed when I saw the bypass shocks that came in the lever kit. They are like toys!

The reason I wanted coil overs and bypass shocks is because I am coming from buggies back to Jeeps. I have had buggies the last 10 years, dabbled a little in racing and decided that I would rather have a jeep that can take the family for ice cream and can take me through the hammers. Having said that, I still want to be able to drive the thing like a buggy! I know it won't be a buggy, but still want it capable.

I looked at the Genright setup and if it would have been capable with UD 60's I would have gone that route. The deal breaker was that it's cost with the required axles was just too far over what I wanted to spend.

Back to the EVO high clearance arms, the lowers on the axle side are raised substantially over stock. But I'll take a look at raising them in line with the axle tube. I would be concerned that then the uppers would be too low.

For now, I just want to get this thing working well in the form that it's in, then work on the tweaking. Meanwhile I would like to get a clear understanding of it's downfalls and compromises so I can make plans for the next move.

Thanks for everyone's feedback and sorry OP for hijacking your thread!
Conquistador is offline  
post #48 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 06:40 PM
Granite Guru
 
rockystock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 309
Garage
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquistador View Post
Sorry, BL?

Edit: Body Lift, got it.

Itís stacked washers welded together and painted real pretty. Itís about 5/8Ē and was needed for the engine. Nothing to do with the suspension.
Thanks - I did a body lift for my hemi swap as well. Ok thread hijack over

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk
rockystock is offline  
post #49 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 08:21 PM
Rock God
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Woodinville, WA
Posts: 889
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Conquistador View Post
Back to the EVO high clearance arms, the lowers on the axle side are raised substantially over stock. But I'll take a look at raising them in line with the axle tube. I would be concerned that then the uppers would be too low.
Honestly, I'd probably focus more on dialing anti-squat than worrying about rear steer. Do you know where your anti-squat is right now? I've never run the numbers seeing that I can't personally measure anything, but pictures of the Evo high-clearance rear long arm always looked to me like the instant center is way too far back leaving a very high anti-squat, possibly well above 100% which would be a big problem for good performance. I recently dropped from about 100% to around 80% and the difference is tremendous for highspeed desert use (wouldn't really even notice crawling, maybe a tiny bit less hop when spinning up ledges).
christensent is offline  
post #50 of 56 Old 05-10-2019, 11:13 PM
JKO Addict!
 
thedirtman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: southwest reno, nv
Age: 51
Posts: 4,235
Feedback: 0 reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by christensent View Post
Honestly, I'd probably focus more on dialing anti-squat than worrying about rear steer. Do you know where your anti-squat is right now? I've never run the numbers seeing that I can't personally measure anything, but pictures of the Evo high-clearance rear long arm always looked to me like the instant center is way too far back leaving a very high anti-squat, possibly well above 100% which would be a big problem for good performance. I recently dropped from about 100% to around 80% and the difference is tremendous for highspeed desert use (wouldn't really even notice crawling, maybe a tiny bit less hop when spinning up ledges).
Raising the axle side lower control arm should reduce the anti squat. EVO also uses a rather heavy coil rate that would reduce actual squat but I would think you might get some wheel hop with it.

Some build info here:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


[COLOR="Red"]New to jeeps, check this link
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
thedirtman is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Northridge4x4 - EVO Double D Bolt On Long Arms with FREE Bilstein shocks!! Northridge4x4 Vendor's Marketplace 1 02-20-2015 05:32 PM
EVO double throw down and synergy TB bracket?? MonkeyNuts Modified JK Tech Dept. 5 03-28-2013 10:06 AM
Double double carden? rdlynch2 JK General Discussion 14 06-12-2012 06:37 AM
Double Double Cardan ScottK Modified JK Tech Dept. 33 10-14-2010 07:52 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome