Who's running high pinion in the rear? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 02:19 PM Thread Starter
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Who's running high pinion in the rear?

I've slowly been noticing more and more people running a HP rearend. Here and on Pirate. Not a lot of talk about it........but, they're there.

Dynatrac and Currie are both pumping out HP rears, so someone's buying them.

https://www.dynatrac.com/axle-assemb...ock-width.html

https://www.currieenterprises.com/ro...ear-crate-axle

https://www.currieenterprises.com/ro...ear-crate-axle

If these guys are building JK specific HP rears, someone on here is running them.

What are you using the jeep for? Trailer queen? DD'er?

Had any problems?

How often do you adjust load bolts?

I'd really like to know how they are working out for folks.

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post #2 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 02:25 PM
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HP PR60 FF, 4.88, with Nitto 40’s pushed by cam’d LS3/6L80 here. Dyno’d at 388/396 to the ground.

5,750 lb JKUR

Not a daily driver any longer and trailered to any trail more than 250 miles away (cause the fam would rather ride in the SD).

No issues over the past year’ish of wheeling/driving. Haven’t bothered to adjust load bolt but is on the list for winter maintenance.

Last edited by cjindna; 11-22-2018 at 02:28 PM.
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post #3 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 03:02 PM
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I ran the PR60 HP rear for a couple years with no issues. PR does not have load bolts. Load bolts are usless on 4x4 axles as well, they are made for drag racing.

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post #4 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
I ran the PR60 HP rear for a couple years with no issues. PR does not have load bolts. Load bolts are usless on 4x4 axles as well, they are made for drag racing.
Yup, made me have to go out to the barn and double check, but no load bolt on the PR60.

Can cross that off my list and shows how much effort is required to run the HP....

I will say that ensuring proper fill is a bit of a chore given that you have to fill the housing, then fill the upper pinion cavity, and then re-check the housing again. Really no big deal but space is tight and difficult to get a bottle of lube in the upper portion.
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post #5 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
I ran the PR60 HP rear for a couple years with no issues. PR does not have load bolts. Load bolts are usless on 4x4 axles as well, they are made for drag racing.
Why do you feel load bolts are useless on 4x4 axles? I've never heard anyone say this and it would seem to me to go against conventional wisdom on how to make a ring and pinion setup stronger...
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post #6 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 09:33 PM
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Because they wear on the ring gear and unless you adjust them everytime you go out they will not do what they are designed to do. They are great for drag racers that throw a lot of torgue at the start of a race.

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post #7 of 141 Old 11-22-2018, 09:49 PM
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May as well throw it up here...

Dynatrac Semi-Float HP XD60 (Super 60 w/ 10.1" ring gear not to be confused with the regular ProRock series) with 4.88s, Eaton TrueTrac, 3.75" tubes @ .313" wall, 68.5" width. Currently 36.5" tires but plan to go 38.5"

Dyna doesn't advertise it, but you can order it. ~$5k

Add another $900-$1k if you add their Big Rotor Kit

Daily driver with over 100k+ on the Jeep (2012) but probably about 15k on the axle itself. I've had it for about 15 months.

No load bolts on the XD60

I'm loving it so far. Had 2 Rubicon runs with it and a handful of smaller offroad trails

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post #8 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 02:42 PM
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Personal opinion here but I wouldnt want to run on the coast side. If I had big boy funds, then Gearworks is testing a new HP10" that has custom gears to run on the drive side.


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post #9 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 03:12 PM
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If you're going big-boy funds, I'd just go directly to an Ultra4 rig with an MB G63 AMG for the daily driver tow rig.

If you're gonna do it, do it right...
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post #10 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 03:42 PM
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The only reason I can see to running a semi float is so you dont have to change wheels. I mean you can get a ff dana 60 for $4800 including the big brakes. For what you spend on a semi float and add big brakes you can easily pay for a new set of bead locks.

This is the same reason I dont care for the PR44 as you spend almost as much as a ff 60 and dont get the ff, big brakes, and lock outs. These things are what I would want most from an axle upgrade.
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post #11 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Personal opinion here but I wouldnt want to run on the coast side. If I had big boy funds, then Gearworks is testing a new HP10" that has custom gears to run on the drive side.
Something I've never quite understood, why don't all high-pinion rear ends run a gear-set that operates on the drive side? Do the manufacturers just not understand what they're doing (seems hard to believe...)?
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post #12 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
The only reason I can see to running a semi float is so you dont have to change wheels. I mean you can get a ff dana 60 for $4800 including the big brakes. For what you spend on a semi float and add big brakes you can easily pay for a new set of bead locks.

This is the same reason I dont care for the PR44 as you spend almost as much as a ff 60 and dont get the ff, big brakes, and lock outs. These things are what I would want most from an axle upgrade.

Yeah, but then you go read through your own posts on the other thread and it's like a complete 180 from what a few of you are stating right now. The flip-flop actually makes John Kerry look good. It's pretty funny really but hey, whatever. It's all good...

I could cut and paste but it's all right here:

---> https://www.jkowners.com/forum/modif...ns-40%92s.html
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post #13 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post

If these guys are building JK specific HP rears, someone on here is running them.

What are you using the jeep for? Trailer queen? DD'er?

1st question on the list and a good one at that...
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post #14 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DJ1 View Post
Yeah, but then you go read through your own posts on the other thread and it's like a complete 180 from what a few of you are stating right now. The flip-flop actually makes John Kerry look good. It's pretty funny really but hey, whatever. It's all good...

I could cut and paste but it's all right here:

---> https://www.jkowners.com/forum/modif...ns-40%92s.html
Not sure what you are talking about. Unless you are talking about the PR44 reference.

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post #15 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
Not sure what you are talking about. Unless you are talking about the PR44 reference.

It's all right here regarding going FF....

I ain't got the time and patience though to copy/paste every single thread.

You've also mentioned how things get too easy on FF and 40+ on other theads so you take the harder lines that you normally wouldn't and put yourself more at risk on flopping the rig (which you did)...

I'm just saying man...



---> https://www.jkowners.com/forum/4400393-post6.html

Quote:
I agree with ALASHA. unless you just have an extra $20k just laying around to blow and don't drive it much then make the jump to 40's hell, go 42". Trails become too easy unless you run with buggies, driving around town sucks because your visibility is poor, parking sucks because lots are tight and the width you need to run 40's kills your turning radius and you bare fit in the spot after making a 3 point turn. Its a pleasure to drive around in my stock tj compared to the JK on 40's. Your used parts are not worth as much as you think either if you are counting pennies and are using salvaged parts to pay for the new stuff. The added weight absolutely sucks and totally kills the power on the highway if you have any hills at all. I might drop down to a 38" or 39" tires on my next set, even considered 37's just for some better clearance on the up side for going fast.
An axle swapped jeep on 40's is a hard sell if you ever want to get rid of it and you will get killed on what you get for it.
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post #16 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 06:43 PM
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I have never flopped, I did a full frontal roll off a 15' drop-off.
I would stand by that statement and generally tell people not to run anything bigger then 35's on a DD. If you want to go bigger I just tend to give all the points not just the good ones.

I still dont see how that is a 180 from the comment about running a semi float just to keep the factory wheel pattern. I think it is a stupid reason for going semi float and you are investing a lot of money into that semi float, why not just go a bit further and get a real HD axle.
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post #17 of 141 Old 11-23-2018, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christensent View Post
Something I've never quite understood, why don't all high-pinion rear ends run a gear-set that operates on the drive side? Do the manufacturers just not understand what they're doing (seems hard to believe...)?
Guessing its just a matter of economics. There simply hasnt been enough demand for it up until now to justify the investment in making them.

As for why manufacturers have been offering coast side options, Im guessing the conversation goes along the lines of something like:

customer: I want HP.
Company: We dont make a gear set that will run on the drive side. It will have to be on the coast side.
customer: huh?
Company: Can you hold please?
Company (on mute): Yo Joe how bad can it be if this guy runs on the coast side of his gears?
Joe: shrug
Company: shrug
Company: Sorry I am back. credit card number?
customer: xxx-xxx-xxx-xxxx
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post #18 of 141 Old 11-24-2018, 12:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christensent View Post
Something I've never quite understood, why don't all high-pinion rear ends run a gear-set that operates on the drive side? Do the manufacturers just not understand what they're doing (seems hard to believe...)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Guessing its just a matter of economics. There simply hasnt been enough demand for it up until now to justify the investment in making them.

As for why manufacturers have been offering coast side options, Im guessing the conversation goes along the lines of something like:

customer: I want HP.
Company: We dont make a gear set that will run on the drive side. It will have to be on the coast side.
customer: huh?
Company: Can you hold please?
Company (on mute): Yo Joe how bad can it be if this guy runs on the coast side of his gears?
Joe: shrug
Company: shrug
Company: Sorry I am back. credit card number?
customer: xxx-xxx-xxx-xxxx

How many rear axles does Currie/Dyna have to sell a month/week day to make producing them profitable? That can't be a small number. Hell, they come with a warranty, so they're not just sending grenades out the door.

I don't think there's actually more than a handful of companies that make R&P's for everyone. Getting one of them to do a run of a few hundred HP rear sets would be difficult.

I wonder who is making the Gearworks gears? Currie has 2 sets of gears that are their own creation, wonder who's making them?
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post #19 of 141 Old 11-24-2018, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
How many rear axles does Currie/Dyna have to sell a month/week day to make producing them profitable? That can't be a small number. Hell, they come with a warranty, so they're not just sending grenades out the door.

I don't think there's actually more than a handful of companies that make R&P's for everyone. Getting one of them to do a run of a few hundred HP rear sets would be difficult.

I wonder who is making the Gearworks gears? Currie has 2 sets of gears that are their own creation, wonder who's making them?

Yup. Kevin is on the right track.

A company like Dyna (and even Currie for that matter who both do a shit-ton of volume) isn't just going to blindly go into a market, spend all the time + $$ into R&D, then go into manufacturing HP Front and Rear for their XD line which is their top-of-the-line 60s axles.

I'm sorry, but it ain't as easy as just taking someone's CC card over the line and you poop out the end product overnight. From market research, to R&D, to supply logistics, kanban system integration, and setting up jigs and re-routing assembly lines for mass production, just the front end management before the first batch of axles are completed can be a couple of years process easy.

In Dyna's case, the introduction of their high-pinion housing came in October 2015 if you take their marketing video.

---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=TZeY0Vb2dU4

I've also had my rear HP axle for 15 months now and it seems many here didn't even know Dyna even had a 10" rear available (hell, even their own employee Eric didn't know they had a 10" rear LMAO), let alone was obtainable in a semi-float configuration.

*edit*
It is also why in my case why I think I got the best of both worlds by going SF with the XD housing. Because if Dyna were to publicly advertise this configuration, it would easily take sales/profit margins away from their FF ProRock rear, FF XD60 rear line, and SF ProRock rear.

Actually the profit margin loss maybe even greater because by knowing and getting a rear SF XD60 instead, they also lose the sale/margins on a FF front axle as well...

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post #20 of 141 Old 11-24-2018, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
I have never flopped, I did a full frontal roll off a 15' drop-off.
I would stand by that statement and generally tell people not to run anything bigger then 35's on a DD. If you want to go bigger I just tend to give all the points not just the good ones.

I still dont see how that is a 180 from the comment about running a semi float just to keep the factory wheel pattern. I think it is a stupid reason for going semi float and you are investing a lot of money into that semi float, why not just go a bit further and get a real HD axle.

Tom, I'll back away now because I've always respected your input. Have a good one man...
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post #21 of 141 Old 11-25-2018, 07:27 PM
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This post is primarily for those who are new to the axle upgrade scene...

Food for thought, not for those in the FF is the end-all and can part the red sea camp, but for those looking to upgrade the beef underneath their rigs who are currently on 35s and entertaining the idea of a solid setup for 37/38s while still keeping your stock 3.6 pentastar rig nimble, agile, & low weight, and why a high-pinion axle like a semi-float XD60 should be on your research list for a rear setup....


First nothing wrong with HP standard D60 flare. It's a proven setup with the reverse cut 9.75" R/P. If @cjindna can run his cam’d LS3/6L80, 5,750 lb JKUR on Nitto 40s, Dyno’d at 388/396 at the wheels with no issues, guys who are still scootin' around on stock engines shouldn't be concerned.


For a few hundred $ more, you can easily get into the stronger Ford Super 60 with the 10.1" diameter gear. Not only because of the larger ring gear size, but also because of it's much larger pinion tooth contact area which it seems many people tend to overlook.


Why the Super 60? Well if you don't need the beef of a D70 or D80, why not? Keep in mind Ford introduced the Super 60 for their 2004 Super Duty F-450 and F-550 trucks. If you have a 2-door Sahara for example like I do, you are slapping this single axle beef under your ~3760-4100lb rig.

---> Dana Super 60 High Pinion Front Axle - 4-Wheel & Off-Road Magazine

Quote:
Referred to internally as the "Fat Boy", the Dana Super 60 evolved from the '78-'79 Dana 60 front axle first found under Ford F-250 and F-350 trucks. Keep in mind the original Dana 60 was designed for a 1-ton pickup with a 4,500-pound front gross axle weight rating (GAWR), 29 1/2-inch-tall tires, 4.10 axle gears, and engines that made less than 170 hp.

The Dana Super 60 on the other hand was designed for Ford F-550 trucks with nearly twice the weight capacity, 33-inch tires, 5.38 axle gears, and more than 600 lb-ft of engine torque.

I wanted to confirm those weight capacity and torque capacity specs. Looking at the specs for the Ford Super Duty line-up on Wikipedia, we find the following:

---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_S...ty#F-450/F-550

Quote:
F-450/F-550

To bridge the gap between the pickup line and the much larger medium-duty F-650/F-750, Ford introduced the F-450 and F-550 variants of the Super Duty; with an available GVWR from 17,950-19,500 lbs, it pushes the Super Duty into the Class 5 truck market. Available only as a chassis cab for commercial upfitters, both versions were fitted with dual rear wheels.

While largely aimed at fleet buyers, F-450 and F-550 were configurable in XL, XLT, and Lariat trim levels available to Super Duty pickup buyers. The sole gasoline engine was the 6.8L V10 while the 7.3L PowerStroke was the diesel option; in 2003, this was replaced by the 6.0L PowerStroke.

In 2005, the F-450 and F-550 received further updates to the exterior than the rest of the Super Duty line, with an extended front bumper and front fenders; the F-550 received a "wide-track" front axle to sharpen its turning radius.
So not only was the Super 60 in it's high pinion reverse-cut FF as front axle configuration rated for ~7000lb-8000lb GAWR, the 6.0L PowerStroke turbocharged engine they were found under was pushing 560-570 ft-lb of torque.

With an Edelbrock supercharger out of the box setup, you are only getting 262-277 rear wheel torque...

---> https://www.edelbrock.com/e-force-su...6--erb--290278

Quote:
The Edelbrock E-Force Supercharger system part # 1527 for your 2012-14 Jeep Wrangler delivers 317rwhp and 277rwtq for a MANUAL and 303rwhp and 262rwtq for an AUTO. This Supercharger is exclusively for the Pentastar 3.6L V6 Engine

Conclusion: Just in weight capacity and torque capacity alone, jumping to a Super 60 is a no brainer.


....(continued)

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post #22 of 141 Old 11-25-2018, 07:42 PM
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The next complaint you'll often hear is, "Running on the coast side? Fuck that."


Which is why running a 10" rear is important and taking advantage of the larger pinion that the Super 60 gives you is equally important.


Pictures speak 1000 words....

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When you jump into 10"+ territory, it is night and day compared to a regular D60, full-float or not...

Look at those pics. Bolt-on Super 60 axle all day, any day.

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post #23 of 141 Old 11-25-2018, 07:45 PM
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These are 5.38 gears. The difference is considerable...

Now imagine how fatter that pinion head would be if we kept the gearing in the 4.56/4.88 range....


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post #24 of 141 Old 11-25-2018, 07:55 PM
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Still not convinced? Take a look at what a company like TrueHi9 puts on a smaller 9" Ford setup compared to a standard HP D60...

---> TrueHi9 - Gear Page


#FatPinionHeadsNeedLove2

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...and look at the pinion head contact area. Hi9 5.14 is pic on top while the bottom pic is a HPD60 5.13

More teeth contact from the larger pinion head = more beef

Once again, imagine if we are talking fatter pinon heads at 4.56 or 4.88s...

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So not only are you getting the easily observable larger 10.1" ring gear and fatter pinion as shown from earlier pics, but you also are getting more R/P mesh contact area with the Super 60...

Once again, unless you're running big weight & big engine torque (which many still aren't even after going FF/40s and still wishing they had a V8 swap), you are nowhere near to what a Super 60 can handle...


...(continued)

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post #25 of 141 Old 11-25-2018, 08:24 PM
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Finally that brings us down to deflection...


So what? You got a fatter pinion and a larger ring gear with a Super 60? Don't mean shit if it can't keep a mesh.


Which is why you need big balls bearings and a big balls cast housing. The XD60 uses the same carrier bearings as the D80. You read that right - D80 carrier bearings. That carrier holding the Super 60 isn't going anywhere.


You've already seen the larger pinion bearings on the Super 60. So the only thing left is housing integrity.


This is why I think Dyna really hit a home run with their most recent designed XD housing. The housing is as beefy as it gets. Most housings you can think of being ceiling/floor and 3 walls. The removable 4th wall is just an after thought to keep diff oil in using low torque bolts.


For the XD in particular (can't speak for Currie or the others), that 4th wall is like the blast doors to the Cheyenne Mountain Complex. Solid Nodular Iron diff cover that is clamped down using grade 9 bolts @ ~80 ft-lbs each. The housing is as strong as they come. Stock D44 is torqued to 20 to 30 ft-lbs? Stock D60 diff cover is torqued to ~35 ft-lbs. No comparison.


Finally, in terms of the XD60, you are now looking at beefy 3.75" diameter tubes which are even larger, stronger, & lighter in weight than most of the FF D60s that people are running. For comparison, UD60 is 3.5" diameter tubes. Fusion's Elite FF 60 is 3.5" diameter and their Elite FF 80 is 4" diameter tubes.


I also don't know of any that have spun these 3.75" tubes. Maybe they are out there but I haven't seen or heard of them spinning. If you're still running stock D44's, spun tubes is a very common problem if you actually wheel the Wrangler and it's never fun getting towed/flat-bed home. Sure you can weld the tubes to the pumkin but is structural integrity being sacrificed? I'm nowhere near a welding pro (or amateur) but there's a reason why mfg's choose rosette welds to mate the tubes & housing.


I can also understand why at one time, Dan @ Fusion was entertaining (perhaps sarcastically suggesting) the idea of getting the XD cast from Dyna so they could pump out axles that were equally as strong but at lower pricing/margins than Dyna. The XD is a solid housing and even Dan can acknowledge that...


...(continued)

Last edited by DJ1; 11-26-2018 at 05:05 AM.
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