install small BB kit, ESC / TC / EBS kicking in on left turn or minor launch.. - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 Old 09-30-2018, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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install small BB kit, ESC / TC / EBS kicking in on left turn or minor launch..

I have a 2013 Rubi JKU, since new.
29K miles.


Once the warranty was up, and my lease was up, and it was no longer my company vehicle, it was time to start.
About 3 years ago, cut down the front bumper, installed a winch plate, 8klb warn winch.
(and other odds and ends, but they don't play into the issue at hand).
Of course sagged, so installed a 1.75 front spring spacer, and took out the OEM spacer.
And the JKU was just about flat, maybe a tad nose up.
Over all with the winch sag, gained 1.25" up front, compared to before the winch install.


2wks ago, with the stock tires bald,bought rims (4.75" bs) and tires, put 285x75x17 (~34x11) on it, and have been running it for 2wks.
Minor rubs on some hard hits at speed on back roads, figured once I hit the real trails, it'll rub bad.
I did re-calibrate for the new tires when I bolted them up.
Speedo is dead on.
But JKU ran fine and handled fine, no lights, no ESC/TC/ EBS kicking in or lights.
Was very much enjoying the new shoes.
2wks, no issues, but for the minor rubs encountered.


So got a BB kit, and some other spacers.
Today, did the suspension work.

Put a 1.75" rear spacer in, along with a rear bottom spring retainer, and extended the rear bump stop.


Added a 1" spacer up front (on top of the 1.75 that gave me a 1.25" lift with the weight of the winch).
Put on new swaybar links that were for lift 2-3" (I have ~2.25" total up front).
And added a bump stop puck to the bottom perch.


I have a near stock rake, which is ok , cause when we go for a trail ride out of state, we pack up, so wanted a small rake, so level when loaded.
There's ~ 3/4" difference front to back, nose ever so slightly lower.

Loved it when finished.

Took it for a test drive, all right turns are perfect. Even hard right turns.
Left turns and even minor straight launches from a dead stop, the ESC kicks in and activates the brakes.
It can just bring the JKU to a near complete stop.
Turn off the TC, and it doesn't happen at all.

I've read that even 2Deg off center of the steering wheel, and it'll upset the ESC.
The steering wheel looked fine, but yea, I get it, the physics of it all, will pull the wheel a tad off center.
So Played for hours adjusting the collar on the drag link.
I could make it soo bad, that the TC and ABS lights lite up, and no more problem!! LOL.
Cleared those codes, so those nannies could come back online, and brought it back and play with 1/3 turns of the collar, and I could make it less sensitive, or more, but can't get rid of it.

I'm planning on bringing it for an alignment.
But boy I figured with 2wks of greatness with the new tires.
Adding no more than 1" upfront (on top of the 1.25" already there that never gave me a problem) and 1.75" in the back can't be bad to do.

I haven't taken a tape to the front wheels to look at centering, but I've had a 99dodge ram 4x4 for 19 years, and played with the same suspension set up, and have done adjustable track bars by tape and by eye.
My JKU , by eye, looking at the fenders to tread, looks so close to the same, I cant see a difference by eye.



I also read about re-cal'ing the SAS by turning the wheel from lock to lock when running and turn it off, and back on again. Not sure if that's just internet hoke'em.


Any idea?
Or are these JK electronic nannies soo touchy, that's why some resort to the switch I've read about?

TIA !!
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post #2 of 12 Old 09-30-2018, 11:08 AM
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you maybe don't realize how disheartening this question is around these parts ; it means the gazzilion threads where we talk about the importance of roll-center has fallen on no ears.

Please provide the amount & manner of trackbar raising , front/back as-well-as of it was frame side or axle side raised.
'cause roll center is why you're failing to please the assisted handling gods.






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post #3 of 12 Old 09-30-2018, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post


you maybe don't realize how disheartening this question is around these parts ; it means the gazzilion threads where we talk about the importance of roll-center has fallen on no ears.

Please provide the amount & manner of trackbar raising , front/back as-well-as of it was frame side or axle side raised.
'cause roll center is why you're failing to please the assisted handling gods.




I find it very unlikely body roll is doing this. I'm with you that roll center is important and it's sad how low some people have it (often stock brackets on lots of lift). But probably not what's going on here. I've driven for months of time without sway bars on about 4" of lift and a fairly low roll center and real low spring rates (in the past that is, things are much better on my Jeep these days), throttle it hard out of a stop sign on a left turn and might get 15+ degrees of body roll, enough to seriously freak out a passenger who doesn't have experience with rolley vehicles (left is worse than right because for left turns the engine counter torque adds yet more body roll while on a right turn the turn and the engine counter-torque are cancelling each other out). Never had a traction control light come on unless I was pushing it so hard that it actually went into an under-steer condition (which is pretty easy to do with no sway bar when driving aggressively). The JK traction control system honestly couldn't care less about body roll, which is pretty nice for modified suspensions.
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post #4 of 12 Old 09-30-2018, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you both for piping in.

And sorry, no I don't realize how disheartening this question would be.

With the old stock warn old and hard BFGs MT, I could slide it sideways in a turn on dry pavement, and I'd throw a TC/ESC light and a minor brake intervention.
I don't even come close to that with the left, to get the nannies to start nagging hard with the brakes.

I didn't touch either TB.
Was hoping to do the smallest lift I could, for the moderate trail crawling the wife and I do.
When I was younger, I had a 80 yota with a worked 22r used to rock crawl with, wife hated it.
So we just do moderate trail crawls.

I've read soo many people with just a 2" BB, and they didnt cite a problems.

Once I found my problem on my test drive, and starting googling that problem, found a few threads out there, and people posting the same left turn issue.
(but no posts about roll center, specifically , sorry )
A couple posted that later said they went to a full kit 3" lift, and problem was gone.
(so yes, starting thinking TB brackets and maybe LCAs)


So was starting to think Id hear about TB brackets and or LCA once I posted.
My JKU feels fine, doesn't feel skittish, so I ruled out the LCAs.

I basically understand the geometry, so I know any lift is pulling on the axles, and the TB isn't at neutral anymore.
And the way they are mounted, they pull in opposite directions.
But thought there was some wiggle room.
Guess adding the 1" upfront and adding 1.75 out back , I ran out of the wiggle room with the nannies.

With all the discussions about roll center the nannies and minor lifts, has it been the TB brackets that have been a predominate fix?
The TB brackets I've seen in the recent past were for 3" or more lifts.
Are there ones out there for front and back that are good for 2" lifts?
With such a minor lift, I'd hate to get a pair, and find out at flex, there's no room for it.

I don't think it's body roll either.
I can hit it really hard on a right turn, body lean feels the same as a left and more when I hit it even harder, and the brakes aren't kicking in.
Just a straight start with moderate launch, or the moderate left. I really have to baby the left for it not to happen. When it does, brakes hit real hard.

The start from a standing stop, needs to be like your driving for gas mileage for the nannies not to nag with the brakes.
I've been able to hammer it before to make the nose lift, butt squat a bit, and none of the nannies would pitch a fit and kick in.
I don't throw a light on the dash, just feel the brakes kick in on the launch or left turn.

When I put the steering wheel far enough off center, yea, TC/ESC and ABS light came on.
Once I reset the faults, and brought the wheel back to center, they never came back on.

Again,TIA for the input.
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post #5 of 12 Old 09-30-2018, 03:16 PM
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I'm pretty sure something is actually broken in your traction control system. Not sure what or how to diagnose it, though. The problems you're describing simply do not happen on a correctly working JK no matter what you do to the suspension. I've tried so many dumb bizarre suspension adjustments on my Jeep that are an order of magnitude more ridiculous and poor in handling than a 2" budget boost with stock brackets. I don't even know what it would feel like for the brakes to kick in hard during a standard street turn as I've never felt it happen. There's simply no explaining what you are experiencing through your suspension adjustment.

As for your track bar question, with that lift you cannot raise the front track bar as you can only do a 3" raise in the front and also have to flip the drag link and have at least 3" bump stop extension. It'd just be the rear you can do. It's not your problem though and I believe you're going off on a futile tangent if you try to fix this through suspension adjustments.
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post #6 of 12 Old 10-01-2018, 09:24 AM
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Did you loosen ALL the control arms/trackbars and retorque after shaking your rig at ride height with the weight of the jeep on the suspension? The binding of the bushings under load might cause enough pull on the axle to throw the steering angles off setting the system into a fit. I would do that, re enter the steering wheel, and then re calibrate the steering sensor to start.

I did the teraflex puck level kit and centered the wheel before driving it with no issue. Repeated that after I put on the metalcloak gamechanger this summer and didnt get the wheel perfectly centered but drove it for 3 weeks before finally getting around to fixing it with no nanny intervention. In both cases all suspension bits were loosened and retorqued at ride height to free up any binding.

I might have missed it but does the jeep steer straight down the road? Or does it feel like you're fighting the suspension?
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post #7 of 12 Old 10-01-2018, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the info and piping in some more..


Turned off the TC on the commute today, and it was perfect, got up to 65mph on a side road, felt fine.
Hit a small stretch of hwy for about 2miles, ran it up there, felt fine, braked straight as an arrow when I hit the section with lights, steering wheel was as centered as it could look.
Didnt feel flighty, the only slightly forced input was in relation to the crown of the road. Felt normal. most of the time a little left input. Get on the crown of the road or on the hwy flat section, no more input needed.
I've driven on the new tires and rims for 2wks before I did the lift. But for this problem, when driving now with the very minor lift (with the TC turned off), can't really tell that I lifted the jeep.
(I've read that using the TC off button, just detunes the ESC, doesnt really turn it off.)

What pisses me off, all I did was add 1" to the already 1.25" up front.
And 1.75" in the back.

I doubled checked all my wiring to the wheels for the sensors, and made sure all the connectors were seated.
I scanned for codes, nothing. But for when I move the drag link sleeve way off center, then it threw lights that had to be reset.
At one point when I was dialing the drag link back in, one test drive, I could throw lights and brakes on the hard left, and they would go out. Getting closer to center, wouldn't throw light just brakes.
More off center it was the more sensitive it was to throwing on the brakes and finally lights
I spent a couple of hours toying with the centering of the steering wheel.

I have had 4 JKs, starting with my wife's 2009 which was totaled, my daughter has my 2010, I have my 2013 rubi I'm posting about, and my wife's 2015 (After the 2009 was totaled in 2015, she had to have a JK again).
I've had a couple of wheel sensors go. while they do the same thing feeling wise, throwing on the brakes like throwing out an anchor, you get a light too, and throw codes for that bad wheel sensor even when just crawling through a parking lot. Feels like you left the Ebrake on as your pulling away, your not moving, thinking, damn am I on the brake not the go peddle, or did I leave the ebrake on. very odd felling. Turning off TC did nothing with a bad wheel sensors.

This is soo predictable with the left hard turn, and the launch. And turning "off" the TC.
Reading a bunch of threads elsewhere, others have reported the left hand issue too (after a lift), and re-centering the wheel solved it ,and some had todo an alignment too.
Re-centering isn't doing it for me. But I can change the sensitivity to it.
Others gave up on the BB, and went full 3" lift kit, and their problem was finally gone.
Big difference there is LCAs and rear trackbar bracket.
One poster said after 5K miles, the problem went away.


So getting back to j3ff3ry_j33p's post about the TB and roll center..
When I launch, I'm changing the RC front and back.. opposite direction, nose lifts, rear squats.
If the JKs are sensitive to that, maybe that's it?
I don't know what the ESC is looking for, don't know much about it.
Most, if not all the kits, now even the mopar 2" kit have a rear TB bracket.

Don't want to mess with the front, it damn near looks perfect in parallel with the drag link.


3VOL,
Thanks for the input, no I did not loosen and re-torque all the CA bolts.
(makes me think about the one poster that said after 5K miles the problem went away)
Just rear lower CA bolts, when I installed the skid plates there while jeep was on the ground. (Seems I always miss the front, but always tag the rears on something under the deep puddles.)
I have a pair for the front, haven't done them yet, perfect time to try that.

Last edited by ramit; 10-01-2018 at 06:48 PM.
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post #8 of 12 Old 10-01-2018, 07:50 PM
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Probably 95% of posts about the light after a lift are, as you already identified, about steering wheel center. In that case, the light comes on and stays on and you don't really have any problems. What you experience is the light just flashing and braking then going away after the turn, right? There's no way that's steering center, totally different symptom.

While I don't know every single technical detail, what the traction control is looking for at a high level is the vehicle rotating (gyro sensor) in an implausible manner given the angle of the steering wheel. When this happens, it knows the vehicle has entered a loss of traction leading to either under or over-steering which can be easily identified by detecting which direction the vehicle's rotation is implausible in. It then brakes one of the rear brakes to provide a counter-force against the vehicle's rotation and hopefully you stop skidding and regain control of the vehicle. It's got nothing to do with vehicle roll angle side to side or squat front to back (that one really can't matter, how would it know if you're squatting on throttle or just driving up a hill?).

I seriously doubt it's anything about control arm bushing preload with such a tiny lift, but I guess it's worth a shot. Axle centering shouldn't matter either. If I were in your position, I'd probably be considering replacing all the wheel sensors as a random hope at fixing it. It's not that expensive and there's just not all that many things that can go wrong in the system. I believe the only relevant sensors in the system are the 4 wheel sensors, the steering wheel angle sensor, and the IMU (under the center console).
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post #9 of 12 Old 10-02-2018, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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christensent.
Thanks for the reply.
Until I really put the steering wheel past say 11 / 1 (with adjusting the drag link sleeve), either way, the lights come on and stay on and needs to be cleared.
But with it centered, I agree with what you wrote about what its probably trying todo, but no lights, just brakes.

I played with the launch on the way to work today.
What I was thinking with a launch, the rear squat and nose high, the yaw of the jeep changes direction, like a skid, since the TB's pull on opposite directions.
the steering wheel pulls as well. goes from center to left side to 11 oclock. but I'm going straight. If my ESC is that sensitive to start with, maybe that change in yaw is triggering it.

Never mind how repeatable it is in a left hand turn, and not a right.. and strangely enough the launch....
Needing to keep jeep flat in the left of the launch is the thing that it has in common.


I've read other threads regarding other truck designs and their SAS, in addition to centering it needs to be re-calibrated lock to lock.
Simply enough, just run the wheel back and forth a few times lock to lock, think I read that about the Tacos.
But havent read that about the JK. ?
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post #10 of 12 Old 10-02-2018, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ramit View Post
christensent.
Thanks for the reply.
Until I really put the steering wheel past say 11 / 1 (with adjusting the drag link sleeve), either way, the lights come on and stay on and needs to be cleared.
But with it centered, I agree with what you wrote about what its probably trying todo, but no lights, just brakes.

I played with the launch on the way to work today.
What I was thinking with a launch, the rear squat and nose high, the yaw of the jeep changes direction, like a skid, since the TB's pull on opposite directions.
the steering wheel pulls as well. goes from center to left side to 11 oclock. but I'm going straight. If my ESC is that sensitive to start with, maybe that change in yaw is triggering it.

Never mind how repeatable it is in a left hand turn, and not a right.. and strangely enough the launch....
Needing to keep jeep flat in the left of the launch is the thing that it has in common.


I've read other threads regarding other truck designs and their SAS, in addition to centering it needs to be re-calibrated lock to lock.
Simply enough, just run the wheel back and forth a few times lock to lock, think I read that about the Tacos.
But havent read that about the JK. ?
If your steering wheel rotates that much launching straight something is probably wrong mechanically. Either you have some modifications you're unaware of (something like flipping the drag link to the top of the knuckle but NOT raising the track bar at the axle could do that), or some element of the steering is very worn out I'd say.

I've never heard of needing to re-calibrate the steering wheel on a JK and never done it myself.
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post #11 of 12 Old 10-03-2018, 09:01 AM
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My suggestion of unloading all the bushings and retorque, center steering wheel, and SAS relearn (whether it does anything or not who knows) was simply to set the suspension to a neutral state. Bushing preload can absolutely have an effect on the axles as they go through their travel under load even after small lifts. Process of elimination through the easiest and quickest steps helps to narrow it down when you start into other steps such as wheel speed sensors, or bad steering sensor/clock spring. I'm extremely adverse to adding new parts and variables to the equation that might have you chasing your tail. If everything was kosher until you added more pucks I'd say it's either the bushings being preloaded, a pinched/stretched speed sensor wire, a borked clockspring/sas, or a combination of those things.
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post #12 of 12 Old 10-06-2018, 08:39 PM Thread Starter
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I have 28K on the 2013 Rubi, owned it since new.
So I'm aware of every mod.
The front is tight.
The drag link is under the knuckle, all stock.
Did the 34" tires and rims (was OEM Rubi before, tires all worn out), things were still great.
Did the lift, got the problem.
No mods in the front steering components. Till the lift last week, where just added the spacer and changed the swaybar links for those that came with the BB kit.
The TB and it's mounts were all stock, till tonight.
Tonight after the rear, installed only a TF front monster TB (no mount mods).


No, I haven't gone through all the CA bolts yet.
I'm looking to do that tomorrow. Ran out of time tonight.
I tend to agree with your suggestion, that could help.

I'm sure there's no sensor issues, since for 2wks with the 34's everything was great.
Others have said the taller tires make the wheel speed detection more picky/sensitive, but for 2wks of hard driving with the 34's, nothing, not a hint of an issue.
It all started right after finishing the lift, that test drive.
I've had sensor go bad before, and it's senseless when they kick in, its random. I've seen it effect gas mileage.
This is my 4th JK, still have 3 of them in the house hold.
This problem is 100% predictable.

So the update...
This afternoon I installed a TF monster rear TB with the TF 2 hole rear TB mount, adjusted it all up and soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much better.
Any launch but a full throttle mash launch, and the nannies aren't kicking in.
In all fairness, with the TC off, full throttle and I can get a spin off a rear tire, with TC on / normal, I'd expect it to kick in.

Most hard left turns, no longer getting the nannies applying the brakes, I use to need to go soo slow around a left, or turn off TC. And if I forgot, any normal driving left turn reminded me I forgot to turn off the TC. Normal driving, no hard launches, so no need to have the TC off, till the damn left turns.
But now, for most normal left turns through the neighborhood, no nannies.

Right turns still great.

Now, If I do a very hard left turn that starts to go downhill, a bit of the braking is felt. Nothing like before. No anchors being thrown out.
On flat or and up hill hard left, nothing, all normal.
If I drive normal, or a little aggressive, nothing so far on any left turns. Again, but for a very hard left that goes down hill, go figure.

Before it was 100%, but for driving like a turtle or TC off.


Right after that test drive , installed a front TF monster TB.
Then took it for another test drive, it was getting late, felt like there was no difference with the nannies since the rear work.
But since it was late I didn't take a tape measure to the axles/body to check for center.
I just adjusted the new TF monster to drop right in, and it did.
Tomorrow I'll check front axle center, then the steering wheel again.

Again, tired and late, but I don't think the steering wheel is moving on launch like it was.
Stock TBs flexing and/or rear roll center too low before?

I spent too much time battling getting the TF rear mount on, with the LCA skid plates on. Didn't want to delete the skid plate.
So gave up on the TF mount..
Then tried to install a JKS rear mount, didn't line up well at all. Finally figured out it had some boogers in 2 welds I had to grind down to get the bracket to lay flat and get holes and Ubolt bracket to line up. Repainted after test fitting.
Finally got the JKS installed, and went to install the TF monster rear TB and found the adjusting sleeve and clamps bodies are too thick, hit the vertical brace that goes from where the TB mounts to the Uclamp mount.
@#$%@#[email protected][email protected]#@#%$#.
So back to the TF mount and deleted the left side rear CA skid plate for now. Deal with that later.
That dance cost me a few good hours with all that dickering.

After that test drive was good, and with the sun gone, quickly did the front TF monster TB. Measured up the distance between the mounts and adjusted the length so it would drop in, and it did.
Finally , no dickering, something went as planned.
Will check for axle center tomorrow.
But after installing the front TB, that test drive, it still drove straight and solid. Wheel was still centered.

In hind sight, I do have several hundred pounds of tools and recovery tackle, farm jack, and other associated hard metal heavy stuff in the rear of the JKU.
Would have been interesting to unload the jeep before I did all of this and see how it drove.

Last edited by ramit; 10-06-2018 at 09:27 PM. Reason: added detail
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