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post #1 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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Still cooling issues

I posted a few times on here in the past about this issue and I am out of options.

I have had a 13 rubicon for 3.5yrs my lift, tires, winch, etc., etc has all been done for 3yrs. I have not changed anything for yrs. 37's, 4" lift. 2013 rubicon 38k

Any issues I am describing are new. I can drive around the city all day, up hills etc. No issues. However at 65+ leaving denver heading up into mountains I get less than a mile and I'm at 2/3 on temp gage this is not normal, I drive west not less than 6 times per month for 3 years, this is new.
Things I have done to attempt to fix....
Changed out raiadiator with custom built high efficiency copper brass, (also have since swapped the raiadiator with OEM to confirm issue is not raidiator then put custom back)
Changed water pump (first thing that was done had exact same issue with new pump, problem not the water pump)
Had system flushed twice by different shops
Installed poison spider hood lovers
3 different thermostats and housings
Backer plates with water pump
Had compression and leak down test done all with in 5

Tonight I got it back from dealer and I drove it home with the temp gage in the middle the raidiator hoses on top and on bottom were 175 degrees....with a 203 thermostat that seems odd.

Can someone tell me if this is crazy or a how to do it. The whole thing that started all of this was my thermostat housing cracked and was leaking, I noticed it as I was driving one day. Stopped at O'Reilly grabbed some green Prestone pre diluted 50/50 and added it to fill up system before driving it home, got home it was leaking all over garage, had it towed to raiadiator shop and then the story begins.
I have been through raidiator shop, jeep dealer, and ford dealer. (Know a guy there) they go I dunno....
my thought is, is it possible that I mixed hoat and oat causing the channels in the block to become plugged? If this is the case how do I remove it? I would assume the shops that did the flush just did a vacume, not sure if that would be strong enough to pull it out. I do not need a lecture on hoat and oat.

Total to get to where I am now is $2,600 in between raiadiator, flushes, diagnostics, pumps, thermostats, etc. Almost 10 weeks I have been without because everyone here is so backed up.

Clearly I'm not a mechanic, never claimed to be one. I have a nice jeep that I have spent10's of thousands of dollars to get it where it is and now I have an issue, that no one seems to be able to help me with. Any thoughts?
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post #2 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Understood.
The issues I am describing are new to me, doing all of these same things countless times in the past never had an issue. As previously stated the raidiator shop had their scan took on it at 2/3 it is 244, beyond that it goes into limp mode. As for the fan, I rock crawl constantly, have been through moab etc. My fan spins but it's not loud by any means definately more of a box fan than a jet engine, it's always been that way though, like I said I never have had any issues in 4 low only at 65+ at an incline. Tonight I parked with jeep running when I was checking hose temps, the fan was not on when thermostat was in middle, however it did turn on when ac was turned on. Not really relevant or answering your question, but it's more info. I have no check engine codes as of now. As for what your saying about the coolant temp tool I was also told that a good luver would fix it, a raidiator flush would fix it, and a thermostat would fix the issue. And an OEM raidiator would fix it. With all due respect if everyones "this will fix it" has failed. So my question I am asking at this point is how to get coolant from the cooling chambers in the block.
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post #3 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 06:49 PM
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unfortunate.


You do not want a lecture on HOAT and or OAT coolant and yet, it kinda comes-down to if that "green, pre-diluted 50/50 Prestone" was organic acid or hybrid-organic acid coolant, bud.



So, not sure what we can say then.




If you truly suspect tht you poured the wrong stuff in at auotzone when you had the cracked thermo housing , well...that is the gist of this. It is a necessary need to know element of what you've stated cause it is potentially a destroyer of the power-plant.

Don't think this can really move any other direction until you specify if that ws or was not the wrong coolant ,cause even FCA themselves say:



TSB - 07-004-12 REV. A
SUBJECT:
Attention! Release Of New Engine Coolant Organic Additive Technology (OAT)
MODELS:
2013 (D2) Ram Truck (3500 Pick Up)
2013 (DD) Ram Truck (3500 Chassis Cab)
2013 (DJ) Ram Truck (2500 Pick Up)
2013 (DP) Ram Truck (4500 / 5500 Chassis Cab)
2013 (DX) Ram Truck (Mexico)
2013 (DS) Ram Truck (1500)
2013 (FF) Fiat 500
2013 (JC) Journey
2013 (JK) Wrangler
2013 (JS) Avenger/200
2013 (LC) Challenger
2013 (LD) Charger
2013 (LX) 300
2013 (MK) Compass/Patriot
2013 (PF) Dart
2013 (RT) Town & Country/Grand Caravan
2013 (WD) Durango
2013 (WK) Grand Cherokee
2013 (ZD) Viper
NOTE: This bulletins applies to all vehicle listed above for every engine application
EXCEPT the 2013 MK equipped with the 2.2L Diesel engine (sales code ENE)
and the JC vehicle equipped with the 2.0L Diesel engine (sales code EBT).
NUMBER:
07-004-12 REV. A

GROUP:
Cooling

DATE:
November 03, 2012

DISCUSSION:
Chrysler Corporation LLC. has released a new engine coolant for the 2013 model year
vehicles and beyond, for all engine applications except the ones listed in the note above.
This new coolant is an Organic Additive Technology (OAT) (
Fig. 1). OAT coolants have a
service interval of 10 years or 150,000 miles. For heavy duty truck and extreme duty cycle
applications refer to the Service Information or Owner's Manual for proper maintenance
schedules.

CAUTION: Vehicle Damage may occur if dissimilar coolants are mixed!
Coolants of different technologies are not compatible nor interchangeable (OAT, HOAT or
IAT).
Mixing these coolants could result in:
• accelerated corrosion within the engine and cooling systems.
• the coolant having an ammonia smell.
• debris (particles) floating in the coolant.
Further inspection by the technician may find corrosion in the system. This could show up
as aluminum pipes turning black in the coolant system, engine overheat, or leaks in the
coolant system.

NOTE: If OAT (MOPAR P/N 68163848AA Purple) has been Mixed with HOAT (MOPAR
P/N 68048953AB Pink Or Factory Fill HOAT Orange (
Fig. 2) or (Fig. 3)) or any
other coolants have been mixed, it will be necessary to flush the cooling

system.





all-due respect and not bustin yer balls about it...just kinda important factor you mention...ramifications can be nasty









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post #4 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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At this point I have tried everything else, I'm ok with taking full responsibility for the mistake of it was my fault and it did happen. My question is how can I fix it assuming it was the antifreeze mixing? This maybe extremely common knowledge to you guys, me, had no idea, if that makes me an idiot so be it, I'm just asking how i can fix it as of now.
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post #5 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 07:59 PM Thread Starter
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https://realjenius.com/2018/06/28/pe..._radiator_fan/

This goes over some of the fan info. I can say in the past Eisenhower, floyd hill crow hill etc. It would go up past half of course, never when leaving denver have I ever driving like I stole it lost power from denver to genesee much less on hwy 285 from Santa fr yo wadsworth, over 3 miles that's like 500' elevation gain. I misworded what I said it's not that I dont believe in or buy mixing hoat and or oat. Honestly at this point I am not concerned with cost I just want it fixed. I can take the blame for mixing if I did it, it's in the past how can I fix it going forward is what I'm getting at, the reason I made a comment about lecture on hoat vs oat is everyone seems to beat that to death. I am a bought not a built kind of guy, no secrets I am good at a list of things keeps, motors, etc. Not on my list. I'm just trying to figure this out, so I can drive again.
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post #6 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 08:45 PM Thread Starter
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Jeep scanned, and I have no codes, beyond that I'm lost. However I will say with the proximity of the fan motor and the thermostat housing, could have gotten it wet from above? I know the fan works, i just cant swear to the high speed your talking about
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post #7 of 44 Old 08-31-2018, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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In the link I posted there is a pic with an arrow on it that says fusible link the grey wire, I found the grey wire and tightened it (wasnt loose) and i cant see a fuse on it then it goes into bundle.
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post #8 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 06:52 AM Thread Starter
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I did find when my battery was replaced the "grey wire" that I was looking at was pinched in the battery tray and the grey wire goes to the Underwood fuses. To be honest I dont think I have ever herd my fan sound like the fan in that video, cant swear to it, however just dont think I have. Today I am going to check the relays that are driver side by master cylinder look into the fan more.
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post #9 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleophile View Post
I hear what you are saying about all the "this will fix it" things that have failed to produce the results you are looking for. I don't think I got my point across about the Pentastar cooling fan because I probably was not very clear. I think the reason the past "this will fix it" things failed is because they were not the controlling issue. I think when it comes to the Pentastar motors, the fan is what controls the temps, not the radiator. The programming that runs the fan is very complicated. Ask Robbie who spent months, maybe longer figuring out exactly how it operates. (So he could use it to cool his LS conversions.)

I know I could clearly hear my fan kick into ultra high speed even on I70 going up the hills. Coolant temps would drop rapidly as the fan (finally) went to its highest speed. So clearly the fan was controlling the temps, not the radiator, not the water pump, not anything else. And I think its important to know the controlling factor. If the radiator was the controlling issue, then improving it would improve the coolant temps. But if the radiator is not the controlling issue, then changing it for the better will not produce better results. Does that make sense?

So do you have some type of blockage in your coolant passages in the block? Good question. I would think the shop that changed the thermostat(s) should have been able to see some deposits in and around the thermostat, but who knows what they saw or did about it.

The picture from Jeffery is interesting. Going down that path, when you put the wrong coolant in at the auto parts store, it very well may have caused "something" precipitate out of the solution (the different coolants). You ask if the flushes would have removed it. Not sure. We would need to understand the chemical make up of the precipitant. That should be a known substance, but I personally have no idea what it is. (If I knew the chemical makeup of the new coolant I might be able to hazard a guess.) IF the precipitant was water soluble, then a flush with water should have dissolved and removed it. More than likely though, it was NOT water soluble (just based on simple organic chemistry). At that point, you would be relying on the mechanical properties of the water flush to dislodge it. Given all the restrictions in the system, I am doubtful that the water flush could mechanically remove a non-soluble precipitant in the engine and head passages. You could very well have some impeded coolant flows in the block and or heads.


I am not sure how you would go about verifying this. Certainly pulling a head off would be the most direct way to do it, but that is a lot of work. Perhaps with the thermostat out, a person could snake one of these new video scopes up inside the block and look for crud deposited. If none is found with that method, I think it would safe to rule out a blockage from deposits.

Lastly, I think trying to hold 65+ up Floyd hill or the Eisenhower tunnel is asking a lot for a cooling system that was designed to run at higher than "usual" temps. At the risk of pissing you off (more than I have) are you 100% certain you didn't have issues until lately? Did you watch your (almost worthless) temp gauge from day one and it NEVER did this before? While maintaining 65+ up those hills? Could it be even possible that you never "caught it" moving up to the 2/3 rds mark before. Mine would go there but only briefly as the fan would go ape shit and bring the temps down very quickly. Perhaps you finally "caught it" and now it seems "new" when it might have been doing it all along? (As I said before, mine did it from day one.) Have you talked to other JKUR owners with built jeeps running the same roads AT THOSE HIGHER SPEEDS? (If I kept mine between 55 and 60, the temps would not jump up. It was very speed dependent.)

If you don't have deposits in your cooling system and your fan is operating per specs, I think you are out of options. Short of converting to a completely different fan set up. I know you asked that question before and some people with 3.8 motors responded. I find it odd that Motech uses the Pentastar fan even in 2007 - 2011 JKs to cool LS conversions and you would need to change it out to cool a 3.6. (I am going from memory, but I am fairly certain Motech uses the Pentastar fans to cool the LS conversions. Someone correct me if I am mistaken.)





this reply is what seperates this forum from the others.

I am also extremely onboard w/ the use of a video-scopic investigation before you start disassembling the powerplant could potentially be a good next step.

(edit: I sorrily have no idea how one goes about cleaning-out the tubes, as-it-were after something like that type of mix reaction from hoat/oat combined & left, apparently that is important; ho long you allow them to stay in the system together. I am gonna speculate that total disassembly and reassembly would be the order of the day, unfortunately. I would buy another before trying that . Make sure to underrstand that this is IF that truly is the problem. I am not able to know more than OP shares with us. I am only playing devils advocate to the mix of those two coolants. Ideally it wont be that )



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post #10 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 11:06 AM Thread Starter
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If I am to attempt to bypass the fusible link of the wire, how can I go about that? It goes from the battery then connects into the fuse block under the hood (I think) it's not an inline fuse or anything like that I have several of those, the only reason I think this may be a fusible link is because the picture on the link I posted says grey wire is fusible link, I dont know if it's possible that the wire itself is somehow a link to me it just looks like a wire then it goes under the fuse blocks under the hood have not traced it from there however the fuses are fine. Is there some kind of link before the fuse block? I have lots of wire in all different sizes and connectors etc. I am just not familiar with what your talking about with the fuseable link with no fuse. It is a possibility that wire got messed up. Now I am wondering more so about the fan new one is over 400 so I dont really want to just try it, I can buy it I just want some kind of proof I need it before I do, is there a way to bypass the high speed and see if the fan motor works on high?
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post #11 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 04:19 PM
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@Nucleophile is our resident electrical guru , so what he is suggesting that you check have been spot on , heed EVERYTHING that he has said . He has been spot-on with his advise .

Believe me if your fan does not sound loud , or as loud as that linked video , then your fan is not running on hi .

You can't have a normal conversation standing in front of the Jeep .

A fusible link is relatively inexpensive component .
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post #12 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 06:43 PM Thread Starter
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Today I spent my entire day on this, I tested relays, bypassed fusible link, tested, then went to jeep spent 647 on new fan. The service advisor plugged into it and simulated a drive of 45min at 3000 rpm and the overflow blew the top like a giser now I have back pressure, and he said my fan wasnt working. I Installed new fan and Everything is the same as it was yesterday, except I am 647 lighter and missing a day with my family. I am looking forward to this coming Wednesday when I am taking it to the most expensive 4x4 shop in Denver at 125 an hr to go on a fishing expedition of an answer. I am now $3,200 into a problem that the only thing that is any different then 2 months ago when this problem started is my bank acct.
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post #13 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 06:58 PM Thread Starter
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Also...returned to the auto zone where I bought original antifreeze yo verify type of antifreeze this is the description on the bottle:

Prestone extended life antifreeze is compatible with any antifreeze/ coolant - regardless of color - for use in all makes or model of cars and light duty trucks.

Rust and dirty coolant that circulates in cars cooling system can lead to a clogged radiator, resulting in overheating and engine damage, Prestone antifreeze contains inhibitors for extended performance and protection against rust and corrosion
Patented formula provides a high degree of performance durability and carefully balanced protection against temperature extremes
Protects against rust and corrosion of all cooling system metals, including aluminum
Premixed with 50% demineralized water for easy top off use

I bought the jeep with 8k and never did anything to the cooling system until now. So I am confident that the hoat/oat mixing is irrelevant in my situation.
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post #14 of 44 Old 09-01-2018, 09:21 PM Thread Starter
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Yes. I'm out of options.
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post #15 of 44 Old 09-03-2018, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attaboy View Post
Also...returned to the auto zone where I bought original antifreeze yo verify type of antifreeze this is the description on the bottle:

Prestone extended life antifreeze is compatible with any antifreeze/ coolant - regardless of color - for use in all makes or model of cars and light duty trucks.

Rust and dirty coolant that circulates in cars cooling system can lead to a clogged radiator, resulting in overheating and engine damage, Prestone antifreeze contains inhibitors for extended performance and protection against rust and corrosion
Patented formula provides a high degree of performance durability and carefully balanced protection against temperature extremes
Protects against rust and corrosion of all cooling system metals, including aluminum
Premixed with 50% demineralized water for easy top off use

I bought the jeep with 8k and never did anything to the cooling system until now. So I am confident that the hoat/oat mixing is irrelevant in my situation.





good deal. Sounds like you are confident it is not the NOAT Prestone . I just have always heard that if you use anything but what the User Manual identifies as the proper coolant you should completely flush any old out.

but, it is probably all good.





keep us updated







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post #16 of 44 Old 09-03-2018, 07:48 AM Thread Starter
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The coolant I added was just to get me home, I then had it towed to raiadiator shop where they did flush with new raiadiator.
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post #17 of 44 Old 09-07-2018, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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So my fan was bad, replaced that, however still have the issue just not quite as bad, it is currently at jeep having the oil cooler replaced as I am told by a 25yr jeep tech that the 3.6 has been known to have a malfunction inside of the oil cooler that can block flow of coolant in the system. More to come.
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post #18 of 44 Old 09-09-2018, 12:40 AM
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Might sound silly, but have you tried "burping" it yourself? The shops may not have spent the extra time to burp it.

I've been having an issue with my temp going into the 3/4 mark when I come to a red light, but if I'm driving, city or freeway it's fine. I also have the P0740 code. Anyways, long story short, I thought it was my torque converter so I dropped it off to a transmission shop and he replaced some "solenoid." Picked her up and as soon as I came to a stop, it was shooting up to the 3/4 mark. I was pissed and left her alone for a few weeks. One night, I said screw it, and put the two front wheels on my apt's curb (to put her on an incline) and spent a good 20min burping her. Everything is fine now, I just got back from wheeling in the desert with no issues with the exception of a slight (hair over the central marker) increase in temperature when climbing in elevation.
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post #19 of 44 Old 09-09-2018, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attaboy View Post
So my fan was bad, replaced that, however still have the issue just not quite as bad, it is currently at jeep having the oil cooler replaced as I am told by a 25yr jeep tech that the 3.6 has been known to have a malfunction inside of the oil cooler that can block flow of coolant in the system. More to come.
My wife's 2012 had the oil cooler spring a big leak at about 55,000 miles. Lost a quart of oil in less than a hundred miles. Replacement includes the whole filter housing & cooler, all one piece. It did not effect the temp at all. I'm glad that didn't happen on a road trip somewhere.

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post #20 of 44 Old 09-09-2018, 07:30 PM Thread Starter
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Spent an additional 1007 at dealership, this is the third jeep dealer. They replaced the oil cooler, and also tested the block to ensure no oil in coolant, and did my second compression and leak down test and reconfirmed that 100% not head gasket, head, or block. I have not tried to burp it myself however I have confirmed with each place that they did, it's been flushed 3x and had every single part of cooling system replaced. I drove from denver to leadville this morning, it is getting hotter than it did the last few years of driving up there, I also towed a trailer many times up there and it was hotter today than previously towing trailer. I do however get where your going that I should do that myself, because it is possible that they have lied. Just seems odd that 3 different shops that did flushes no one would have done it
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post #21 of 44 Old 09-26-2018, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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Any other excellent ideas that I can spend thousands on with zero resolution?
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post #22 of 44 Old 09-26-2018, 06:13 PM
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How about like in Vegas Vacation. You hand me the rest of your money and we go out back and I'll kick you in the nuts.

I know that's probably not funny on your end. I hope you get this figured out. Good luck


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post #23 of 44 Old 09-27-2018, 06:32 AM
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post #24 of 44 Old 09-28-2018, 05:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attaboy View Post
Any other excellent ideas that I can spend thousands on with zero resolution?

i will overlook the passive-aggressive tone & pass-it-off as frustration. I can suggest a way to not spend thousands blindly while appearing like a nice, piggy-bank disguised as a Jeep JK to the dealers and repair shops you are less than pleased with ;
do the shit yourself.


It is just a Jeep. The issues with them are all finite if process is followed to troubleshoot. This forum cannot do more than make suggestions. No need to get snide about your wasted dollars here, dude ; we are not telling you to take it to these places at all.

You could get yourself a freakin Spal fan that pulls 3-4 times the CFM for your Jeep's GVW . Mine sends gale-force air thru the rad that would make a hurricane run away in insecurity.

Ya ever think that the old thermo housing that "started all of this' maybe was not working & now it is? Those that run the Pentastars can speak to it better but I understand that they run considerably hotter than the 3.8l and 210F is not uncommon ...




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post #25 of 44 Old 09-29-2018, 04:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nucleophile View Post
I can appreciate your frustration as I too have wasted money on a repair that didn't work. (but usually only the cost of the part(s) as I tend to do 90% myself)

Here is my advice. (more or less again, which will undoubtedly piss you off)

You are trying to measure the operating temp of your jeep with the factory temp gauge. The gauge appears to be analog but it is NOT. The ECU puts the needle in various places along the gauge based on certain parameters. Its probably off by 20 degrees at times! You might as will be trying to measure something to the nearest micron with a wooden yardstick from a furniture store.

As long as the jeep isn't going into limp mode or there aren't any over temp warning lights or chimes, just drive the damn thing. The Pentacrap motor is designed by the factory to run at higher temps than we are all used to. I went thru the same "WTF" moment with my 2013. I took it back to the dealer (under warranty) and they did the flush, replaced the water pump, etc. It ran exactly the same after that. So I just bought an Aero gauge so I could keep an eye on it (as it went to 244 degrees) and just drove it. It was and is fine. (I don't have it any longer but the present owner and I are in touch.)



^ this . I was trying in a not so patient/courteous manner to say exactly that. I do not think I have ever looked at my dashboards temperature gauge.


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