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post #1 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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I know , I know

I should know this stuff by now.
But my mind is old lol , so zero of the floor I have 2.9 on my pinion flange .so my caster should be ?
Please forgive me.

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post #2 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 08:28 PM
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Factory axle is supposed to be 6 degrees of separation.
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post #3 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
Factory axle is supposed to be 6 degrees of separation.
So what it 2.9 ?

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post #4 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tapcola View Post
So what it 2.9 ?

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Assuming the pinion is pointed upwards 2.9 degrees that puts your castor in the 3.1 degree range if the axle was built with exactly 6 degrees of separation.

That's on the ragged edge of driving worth a shit.
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post #5 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 09:02 PM
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This is a good pic. Just imagine if your pinion was at zero or parallel with the floor you would have 6 degrees of castor. Every degree you point it up takes one away from the castor angle.
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post #6 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
This is a good pic. Just imagine if your pinion was at zero or parallel with the floor you would have 6 degrees of castor. Every degree you point it up takes one away from the castor angle.
I see now , I was also measuring at the face and not the flange so I will have look again.
I was having some driveline vibrations, so I might have to compromise.

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post #7 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tapcola View Post
I see now , I was also measuring at the face and not the flange so I will have look again.
I was having some driveline vibrations, so I might have to compromise.

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That's the problem with these front axles and running a dual carden type of driveshaft. You have to sacrifice either drivability (poor castor angle), deal with shitty driveshaft angle (probable for vibration), buy other parts like a locking hub conversion where you can disconnect the front driveline from spinning while driving (expense af), or set it in the middle and get shit on from both directions as the factory housings just dont have enough built in to satisfy both needs.

The other half of the problem is your probably spinning the shit out of the shaft with a high numeric gear ratio on top of poor angle on a decent amount of lift. Most aftermarket axle housings have around 10 degrees built in and this is usually enough to get both in reasonable range.
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post #8 of 24 Old 05-07-2018, 09:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
That's the problem with these front axles and running a dual carden type of driveshaft. You have to sacrifice either drivability (poor castor angle), deal with shitty driveshaft angle (probable for vibration), buy other parts like a locking hub conversion where you can disconnect the front driveline from spinning while driving (expense af), or set it in the middle and get shit on from both directions as the factory housings just dont have enough built in to satisfy both needs.

The other half of the problem is your probably spinning the shit out of the shaft with a high numeric gear ratio on top of poor angle on a decent amount of lift. Most aftermarket axle housings have around 10 degrees built in and this is usually enough to get both in reasonable range.
Yeah it didn't start till I went 513s 3in lift. Just had the driveline rebalance and it was out a bit .so I will see.

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post #9 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 05:20 AM
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@Dkjeep provided very useful info there.
Iím runnin only 3Ē lift , stock axle housings with slightly clocked 2 į Artec lower CA bracketís with 5.13s and WOODíS DC shaft but it is pretty alright tho that shaft does turn fast at highway speeds.

I just found that mid- point by the upper CAs length that he was mentioning and itís alright.

It was at this stage that I decided the $ was definitely worth it & so I fortified the transfer case with that brace that wraps the 241 xfer case in a heavy duty clamp to keep them from the infamous cracking or breaking from being under such stresses. Itís good insurance is all ...
Just throwin that out there.


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post #10 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
@Dkjeep provided very useful info there.
Iím runnin only 3Ē lift , stock axle housings with slightly clocked 2 į Artec lower CA bracketís with 5.13s and WOODíS DC shaft but it is pretty alright tho that shaft does turn fast at highway speeds.

I just found that mid- point by the upper CAs length that he was mentioning and itís alright.

It was at this stage that I decided the $ was definitely worth it & so I fortified the transfer case with that brace that wraps the 241 xfer case in a heavy duty clamp to keep them from the infamous cracking or breaking from being under such stresses. Itís good insurance is all ...
Just throwin that out there.


That's a whole other topic. You definitely dont want those vibes as you know. There has been more than one instance of the t-case grenading due to those vibes. The fun ones are when it goes and slings its fluid out on the hot exhaust and catches fire.
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post #11 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 07:14 AM
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You guys are referring to The Recipe for Disaster. (T-case explosion)

Lifted
Re-geared
Double cardan at the front t-case output
Longer of the two t-case front flange options
Front pinion u-joint more than a degree or two from alignment with drive shaft
Highway speed
Ignoring onset of worsening vibrations

Additional factor is lack of grease in the double cardan.

You don't need all of these ingredients, but it seems to happen once highway speed is attained.
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post #12 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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Well I will put the driveline back in tonight and see how it is. my pinion is at 2.9 it was at .9 so maybe I will put it at 2 and see how it does.
I try not to go more than 75ish but with the 513s it is easy to do 80 85 . I have an Adam's shaft and had them take a look at it,theay did a free rebalance and freshened it up and said everything else was good . Love the customer service from them guys , slapped a new sticker on it and a fresh coat of paint ( good for 10hp gain at least)
And see how it feels.
I know about the sacrifices on castor for the vibes, I drove it this morning at 2.9 and it doesn't seem horrible, but that wasn't at highway speeds.

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post #13 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 08:17 AM
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If you ask Tom Wood who is obviously extremely qualified in these things, he says pinion angle isn't that important and you can usually run 5+ degrees of error at the pinion as long as not in 4WD at high speed. If it's not under torque, it's not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be. You'll still eventually run into issues for extreme angles but it does not need to be within one degree like the rear shaft because it's not under torque at high speed.

Likely most of the people with vibrations bad enough to blow up their transfer case either have absolutely absurd angles, or didn't grease their shaft or it's broken or out of balance, or they left it in 4WD on the highway.
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post #14 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 09:55 AM
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You can always install offset upper ball joins to gain caster and improve the driveline angle.

Some build info here:
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post #15 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 10:07 AM
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If you can't find that happy place, cut and turn the C's to make that happy place.

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post #16 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
You can always install offset upper ball joins to gain caster and improve the driveline angle.
F%#K THAT!

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post #17 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
If you can't find that happy place, cut and turn the C's to make that happy place.
And F%$k that too!

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post #18 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by tapcola View Post
And F%$k that too!

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It's not as bad of a job as it sounds. I've done it.


The offset ball joints are pure garbage.
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post #19 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
It's not as bad of a job as it sounds. I've done it.


The offset ball joints are pure garbage.
I've been running Rybestos greasable offset upper balljoints for 30,000 or so miles and they work fine. I beleive the innards are still plastic, but with regular greasing they are holding up. The outside is stout. The lowers are pure garbage. I ran them for a while and they fell apart.

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post #20 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
If you can't find that happy place, cut and turn the C's to make that happy place.
I thought against casually mentioning a cut and turn. I did not want thedirtman to swoop down and chide me for not mentioning new C's, longer-more-better tubez and fancy new brackets. I think he can hear what I'm thinking so I wear foil on my head.
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post #21 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 08:06 PM
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I know you've already spent the money on a front shaft. But for $400 it's worth bringing up again, especially now that Teraflex has an easier to install version of their high angle rzeppa out.

Tatton high speed rzeppa replacement shaft with teraflex high angle joint:


And ask me how it does with 15" of travel:
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post #22 of 24 Old 05-08-2018, 10:59 PM
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I read a couple of responses here that said "With 5.13s my driveshaft isn't spinning that fast"..... Try about 4000 rpm at highway speeds (70+).... Driven my 08 to Mijami a couple of times with 5.13s and 35 ish tires and the vibe is definitely noticeable, IF I do it again I'm pulling the front shaft.... Mine is stock

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post #23 of 24 Old 05-09-2018, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
You guys are referring to The Recipe for Disaster. (T-case explosion)

Lifted
Re-geared
Double cardan at the front t-case output
Longer of the two t-case front flange options
Front pinion u-joint more than a degree or two from alignment with drive shaft
Highway speed
Ignoring onset of worsening vibrations

Additional factor is lack of grease in the double cardan.

You don't need all of these ingredients, but it seems to happen once highway speed is attained.

early on in my JKU ownership you talked about this ( I think it was JKO maybe another forum ...)& it scared the bajeebus outta me. ‘Never forgotten ...for some reason that just sounds like a nightmare beyond what I could cope with. I think the speed at which it occurs is the biggest factor I dislike thinkin about. Anyway, < $200 for RockslideEngineering’s brace is totally worth it.

Didn’t mean to hijack or detract from op subject. The topic compelled me to mention. I think the centering ball and ujoint lubrication is also critical to tolerances in the driveshaft if dualcardan , as mentioned*.


(* on the dual cardan subject, if I were over 3.5”-4” of lift, I’d order that Tatton’s front driveshaft but have him use the Rzeppa joint at case and axle, for sure..lol, I added this edit before seein the last three posts, ha!)









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Last edited by j3ff3ry_j33p; 05-09-2018 at 04:53 AM.
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post #24 of 24 Old 05-09-2018, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christensent View Post
If you ask Tom Wood who is obviously extremely qualified in these things, he says pinion angle isn't that important and you can usually run 5+ degrees of error at the pinion as long as not in 4WD at high speed. If it's not under torque, it's not nearly as big a deal as people make it out to be. You'll still eventually run into issues for extreme angles but it does not need to be within one degree like the rear shaft because it's not under torque at high speed.

Likely most of the people with vibrations bad enough to blow up their transfer case either have absolutely absurd angles, or didn't grease their shaft or it's broken or out of balance, or they left it in 4WD on the highway.

talkin to Tom is eye opening . This is what he told me a couple years back when I was weighing 1310 or 1350 rear dc shaft . He & his experience is great at dispelling myths and facts about offroad and driveline



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