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post #1 of 20 Old 12-20-2017, 06:42 AM Thread Starter
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Looking for input on which programmers you guys are using? I am looking at 2.

AEV 30406007AG ProCal Module AEV Part #: 30406007AG

and

Superchips 3571 Flashcal F5 Programmer Superchips Part #: 3571

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post #2 of 20 Old 12-20-2017, 06:48 AM
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I have the Superchips (may be an F4 though) and I love it! I use it every time I wheel to put in a crawl tune- also used to to recalibrate for larger tires.


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post #3 of 20 Old 12-22-2017, 12:07 PM
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If you want to add any HP above and beyond just tweaking the other settings, you will need a tuner that has either pre-loaded tunes for higher octane fuels or a tuner that allows you to change the tune (whether you get it done on a Dyno or via an "email tune"). Tuners are not all created equal in this regard. The devices that allow you to change the tune usually also have a pretty robust OBD-II monitoring and logging system included. Not sure about the other "trail dash" type monitors that allow for monitoring but no changes to OBD-II.

I have all three of the following tuners:

Diablosport Trinity:
Say what you will about this one and there are some legit complaints (including my own), but this is still the most robust, complete tuner you can get IMHO.

SCT X4:
Only got this one because I had to get it included with the Edelbrock Supercharger kit in order to get their base tune and the EO number for California Smog checks. I only used this like one time to load the Edelbrock tune. The I married the trinity to it and used that to backup ,y tune and send it to my tuner. Once my tune was figured out, I backed out the Trinity, then backed out the X4 and then re-married just the trinity to the vehicle allowing us to start with a good custom tune that was in the ballpark.

AEV ProCal:
I had one then I sold it when I bought the trinity a long time back. It proved to be a mistake because there were (and still are) a couple of bugs in the trinity for settings that I wanted to change. The software bugs are not on the ProCal. I ended up buying another ProCal after the price hikes.


Definitely get a ProCal f you just have basic needs. At this time, I have both the AEV ProCal and the Diablosport Trinity married to my 3.6L with a blower and methanol injection. I use them for different things.

I only use the AEV for the following two things:

TPMS tire settings:
While the Trinity allows you to disable or enable the TPMS, the software bug (at least on mine) is that even though you change your tire pressure threshold on the trinity and then it appears to update the computer - the update never happens and the tire pressures are stuck on the old settings. This bug was introduced around Thanksgiving 2015 with their (then) latest code drop for Chrysler products and has exuisted through many Trinity software updates. I eventually gave up and just got the ProCall so I can have a light-free dashboard.

When winching:
When I am winching, I like to raise the engine RPMs. I am not as coordinated with one foot on the brake (manual trans) and the other on the throttle and a which control in one hand and probably a beer in the other. The AEV ProCall is cool because you can just plug it in (if the DIP switch are all set correctly) and then use your windshield wiper intermittent knob to change the RPM. I can raise the idle RPM with the Trinity but it is a cludge and nowhere near as elegant of a solution as the ProCall. It's also quick to bust out the procal.
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post #4 of 20 Old 12-22-2017, 12:40 PM
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I've got the new Hypertech Jeep Version. It's not an in-depth programmer so it's not for those that are trying to squeeze the engine but it will let you change a lot of stuff and still leave you with a driveable vehicle. It does allow you to adjust the idle when winching.
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post #5 of 20 Old 12-22-2017, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sschefer View Post
I've got the new Hypertech Jeep Version. It's not an in-depth programmer so it's not for those that are trying to squeeze the engine but it will let you change a lot of stuff and still leave you with a driveable vehicle. It does allow you to adjust the idle when winching.
A lot of tuners allow you to switch up the idle for wincing. My Trinity and my ProCall *both* do. It is just that the AEV ProCal is much easier to work with in practice because you can just plug it in whereas with the Trinity you would have to find it in the menus and then change the setting. I think you have to wait for all that to go through as the PCM is updated. Not sure how others actually work but the AEV is definitely a simple and elegant solution to the idle speed when winching - especially if you keep it in the center console with all of the dip switches pre-set.

In another thread, you seem to suggest that your new Borla makes power and in this thread you seem to suggest skipping a tuner that has the one thing that can increase your HP tunes with advanced ignition timing so that you do not end up with a vehicle that won't run.

If I was faced with allocating ~$500 on performance mods, I would do the tuner and standardize on a higher octane fuel before touching the exhaust. I would still do an intake and exhaust, though, at some point for the responsiveness that these items bring to a manual shift plus the peak (passing) HP you develop at redline.

Tuners that do not modify your tune are on the expensive side IMHO. When I am out on the granite, twiddling or monitoring my tuner is one of the last things I want to be doing. I would rather focus on keeping the shiny side up, keeping track of my trail buddies and seeing how much beer I can convert into urine.

Even the tuners that have canned tunes for different fuel grades do not necessarily allow for *custom* tunes.

IMHO, the only message here from me is that if you are buying a "tuner" that does not actually change your tune, you may be paying too much for not a lot of function. Buy whatever you want.
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post #6 of 20 Old 12-24-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by White13JKUR View Post
If I was faced with allocating ~$500 on performance mods, I would do the tuner and standardize on a higher octane fuel before touching the exhaust. I would still do an intake and exhaust, though, at some point for the responsiveness that these items bring to a manual shift plus the peak (passing) HP you develop at redline.
Higher octane fuel does almost nothing for a Jeep unless you're running forced induction. The 3.6 doesn't have the compression(10.2:1) to gain anything from it apart from advancing the timing a little, which would net very minimal gains. It's not worth paying ~$.50 per gallon extra for less than a 1% gain. A tune is a good thing, but I'd keep it on an 87 tune. The main thing you want is to be able to recal the speedo, gears, idle etc. I like my Bullydog GT, it does all of that and I use the high idle feature in the winter a lot. It can completely shut down the TCS too.

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post #7 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by keeponjeepinon View Post
Higher octane fuel does almost nothing for a Jeep unless you're running forced induction. The 3.6 doesn't have the compression(10.2:1) to gain anything from it apart from advancing the timing a little, which would net very minimal gains. It's not worth paying ~$.50 per gallon extra for less than a 1% gain. A tune is a good thing, but I'd keep it on an 87 tune. The main thing you want is to be able to recal the speedo, gears, idle etc. I like my Bullydog GT, it does all of that and I use the high idle feature in the winter a lot. It can completely shut down the TCS too.
This is not quite correct. Glad you like the bullydog. If you don't run one of their canned tunes for a higher octane, then why bother with that tuner at all?

Just putting in higher octane fuel will do nothing. That much is correct but I am not suggesting that at all here. What makes horsepower is increased ignition timing, more so than air fuel mixture tweaks. Using one of the higher octane tunes will bump up your base timing. You will need to stay on the higher octane gas or you will have detonation running 87. Going to a 91 tune won't get you much but it will net you a small gain as compared to just a higher flow intake and exhaust and no tune at all. I have run both the canned 91 and 94 octane tunes on my 3.6 with 37s and both provided noticeable improvements. And then I got two custom tunes, one for 91 octane and one for 100 octane. The custom 91 octane tune was even better than the canned tune. I think the guy put in several more degrees of base timing plus fattened up the top end at WOT. Richening up the mixture also cools it and allows for a little more timing. I have WBO2, BTW, which allowed me to monitor and log the engine for the custom tune.


It is apparent that you don't understand that the higher octane becomes a requirement when you go to forced induction. Just putting on that blower will give you all kinds of detonation and even though you get power from the increased pressure, you give some up in the tune because the ignition timing is backed way off. The intercooler cools the combustion temps somewhat and allows for a little more timing in the tune. 91 Octane becomes a requirement because the tune is based on that.

Not only do I have a blower and a custom tune but I also have water/methanol injection which is like higher octane fuel. Just slapping that system onto a vehicle does nearly nothing as well - just like adding higher octane fuel to your tank without a tune. It is not until you put in some more ignition timing into the tune that you wake it up and make the HP that you can really feel.

My point with all of this is that with the ignition timing advance comes increases in HP. You will see gains with a tune that requires higher octane (because it advances your base timing across the board).

OP: No need to worry about any of this unless you want to change your tune and make a little HP on top of tweaking the other settings like gearing and lockers etc. If you do want to make some HP then I would recommend a tuner that allows you to monitor and log your current tune and then download it and sent to to a tuner (person) via email. With WBO2, you can get a dialed in tune. A lot of these tune-by-email guys run the Diablosport software package on their end so you would need a Diablosport product on your end. The may work with other brands but Diablotoona, does not, for example. He is an ex-Diablosport employee and uses their software. I think if you take it to a dyno shop they would use HP Tuners to tweak your tune.

The SCT X4 allows for monitoring and logging and custom tunes but the only custom tuner (person/shop) that I know of who works with this one is Edelbrock - the folks who supplied my blower.

Anyway, if you see a custom tune in your future, choose wisely and maybe find out who will be doing your tune and talk to that person.
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post #8 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 09:12 AM
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Octane does one thing.. It slows the burn rate of the fuel. Slowing the burn rate will cause the cylinder to make power further through the stroke. Most folks that actually notice a difference with engines that are designed to run on low octane fuel might feel it as a smoother idle. That to me say's you have a problem to address and changing fuel octane is just a band aid.

While it is true that changing the ignition timing after upping the octane can yield better performance, it can lead to other issues. The worst would be lean out. So go ahead and add ignition timing if you want but don't forget about the other things in the fuel/air delivery system.

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post #9 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keeponjeepinon View Post
Higher octane fuel does almost nothing for a Jeep unless you're running forced induction. The 3.6 doesn't have the compression(10.2:1) to gain anything from it apart from advancing the timing a little, which would net very minimal gains. It's not worth paying ~$.50 per gallon extra for less than a 1% gain. A tune is a good thing, but I'd keep it on an 87 tune. The main thing you want is to be able to recal the speedo, gears, idle etc. I like my Bullydog GT, it does all of that and I use the high idle feature in the winter a lot. It can completely shut down the TCS too.


When you say shut down the TCS, can you turn off the ESC? Have you tested just how “off” it really is?
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post #10 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 11:51 AM
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OP:
Don't worry about any of this unless you want to change up your tune. There are several good programmer choices out there. For a straight up programmer without being able to change the tune itself, I personally like the ease and simplicity of the AEV ProCal and am just fine without any kind of a trail dash for monitoring unless I am running a tuning session or something.

If you do want to change the tune (read: ignition timing and AFRs), I recommend that you spend more time looking at the programmers. For a canned tune, they are probably all fairly equal. If you want to go for a custom tune with someone like Diablotoona, you should contact them first to see what kind of tuners they work with because they need to be using the correct software on their end to do the tunes so that you can upload the files to the device. By running the canned 91 tune, I noticed more SOTP power over the stock 87 tune. After going through the logging with WBO2 and getting a custom 91 octane tune, I got even more HP from the 91 octane fuel because the tuner was able to monitor my detonation and AFRs an bump the timing even more without detonation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sschefer1 View Post
Octane does one thing.. It slows the burn rate of the fuel. Slowing the burn rate will cause the cylinder to make power further through the stroke.

While it is true that changing the ignition timing after upping the octane can yield better performance, it can lead to other issues. The worst would be lean out. So go ahead and add ignition timing if you want but don't forget about the other things in the fuel/air delivery system.
We're kind of off in the weeds with this and you are missing my point here. You won't have to necessarily change your AFRs if you bump your timing but the AFRs because the engine computer will compensate for that to a degree. I think that it would be safe to assume that the "canned" tunes included with these tuners for higher octane fuel have had both the ignition as well as fuel maps tweaked so your point is probably moot. As I already mentioned, they probably fatten up the top end (AFRs ~11.5 - 12) at WOT to cool the combustion temp to help with that increased timing. Nothing here suggests that you should simply adjust the ignition timing and forget about the AFRs. In my case, I am also running wide band O2 (WBO2) for precise AFR monitoring. My AFRs are dialed in and right in the custom tune. I had a custom tune when I was NA and also now that I am FI and have run them extensively. I also have both a 91 and a 100 octane custom tune for FI as well as NA. So that is 4 separate custom tunes.

You'll swing the needle more on a dyno by making ignition timing adjustments than you will making fuel adjustments unless the fuel was just so badly off in the first place. AEM made a video that proves this where they separately tweak the ignition timing and AFRs on a car that is sitting on a dyno. Bumping the ignition timing 2-3 degrees makes power.

Quote:
Most folks that actually notice a difference with engines that are designed to run on low octane fuel might feel it as a smoother idle. That to me say's you have a problem to address and changing fuel octane is just a band aid.
How were you able to decide this about other people? How many cars have you actually tuned? You do not know what you are talking about. Most of the folks here are working with engines that don't have a problem and don't need a band aid yet they can still make more HP by using a custom tune and higher octane fuel.

Granted, you can't just crank up your ignition timing and expect free HP but nobody is saying that. Not me. You are only going to get so much increase before hitting MBT (maximum brake torque AKA maximum base timing) and that has to be figured out painstakingly on a dyno by tweaking the ignition a little at a time and taking the readings.

Bottom line here is that you will see a small gain if you have a tuner that allows you to change the tune for a higher octane fuel.

The compression ratio is sort of meaningless for the argument here in this thread. My European 3.0L (E46 BMW) has 10.2:1 compression and requires premium fuel because that is how it is tuned. No reason why you cannot run that modern pentastar like it's a BMW or Mercedes engine. All it needs is the fuel and a tune for that fuel.
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post #11 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 12:39 PM
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When you say shut down the TCS, can you turn off the ESC? Have you tested just how “off” it really is?
youre asking about the tuner doing that, I’m aware but there’s a couple much easier ways of ensuring that it’s off;Kill switch for or removal of fuse J6. There’s a steering hokeypokey you can do, but it’s lame. This is ancient info but , you know...



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post #12 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 12:57 PM
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youre asking about the tuner doing that, I’m aware but there’s a couple much easier ways of ensuring that it’s off;Kill switch for or removal of fuse J6. There’s a steering hokeypokey you can do, but it’s lame. This is ancient info but , you know...





You can’t do the “hockey pokey” after 2012. Also, doing the fuse or kill switch solution disabled ABS.

It would be nice if a tuner or programmer gave you the option to disable ESC (without a gauge cluster of lights and keep ABS if you wanted). Hence, why I asked that question.
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post #13 of 20 Old 12-25-2017, 02:21 PM
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You can’t do the “hockey pokey” after 2012. Also, doing the fuse or kill switch solution disabled ABS.

It would be nice if a tuner or programmer gave you the option to disable ESC (without a gauge cluster of lights and keep ABS if you wanted). Hence, why I asked that question.

I endlessly forget that ‘12s and newer can’t do the steering wheel tango. Yeah, I was with what you were saying. Honestly , for my use and familiarity with my four door handling , I can not get too outta sorts without ABS but if I were a lot of tarmac driving, I wouldn’t have my abs off. But I follow what you mean. I think the potential for legal ramifications will never see a programmer option to disable those driver assist features like you’re asking for. But , srry OP. Different subject ...






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post #14 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 05:42 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah all I want to be able to do is adjust for gear ratio and tire size. I though I saw one programmer that could keep your fog lights on when you hit your high beams..

Thanks for all of the in put and info. Enjoyed reading all of this..

Carl
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post #15 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 06:32 AM
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i use that tan flashpaq f4 or f5 ..the tan one that’s not the cheap , less featured model and which preceded the trail dash model. It does a bunch a stuff , and USED to allow you to monitor temps of tranny fluid and iat etc...but they took the monitoring feature away to force you to upgrade to newer models so I just use it for the tire size, gearing, stuff like fan cut on temps and DLR on or offf. Monitoring is best handled via TorquePro app. Like has been stated , most of them do the same thing in more or less glorified manners...I dislike superchips business ethics and support but I doubt any others are better.

Ya basically spend a bunch of money on something you maybe use a dozen times a year ( if you switch to crawl mode tune or winch mode maybe more ) then it it’s an expensive addition to your glovebox .




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post #16 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 06:50 AM
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Yeah all I want to be able to do is adjust for gear ratio and tire size. I though I saw one programmer that could keep your fog lights on when you hit your high beams..

Thanks for all of the in put and info. Enjoyed reading all of this..
AEV ProCal 'nuff said

I have a DiabloSport Trinity, Aeroforce Interceptor, and AEV ProCal. I have considered selling the AEV ProCal, but it always does the basic stuff better without issue.

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post #17 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 05:53 PM
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I have a Rubicon and I really enjoy the "Crawl Tune" in the Superchips tuner.
It softens the throttle response (among other things) and makes crawling MUCH smoother with the 4:1 transfer case.
Just my .02 cents....

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post #18 of 20 Old 12-26-2017, 08:41 PM
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I have a Rubicon and I really enjoy the "Crawl Tune" in the Superchips tuner.
It softens the throttle response (among other things) and makes crawling MUCH smoother with the 4:1 transfer case.
Just my .02 cents....
The crawler tune on the Trinity was originally written by Johan (AKA Diablotoona). I think it is still their 87 octane performance tune in terms of fuel and ignition maps. And even in their 87 tune, I think they bump the base timing slightly to give you two or three ponies. The difference is in the drive by wire calibration. I think that is where the dumb down the tune. The other thing that I think that they do in this tune (at least Diablosport) is that the radiator fan comes on sooner.

Me personally, I have never used the canned crawler tune. My custom tune has that motor responding and singing like well tuned Maserati V6 and I run with a blower and methanol injection on the trail when I crawl. Between the manual trans and the rubicon transfer case, there's no need for the dumming down of the DBW - I can feather the throttle with my foot.
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post #19 of 20 Old 01-07-2018, 05:26 AM
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superchips flashpaq F4

I have been running a superships flashpaq for a few years now and have been very happy for the most part. i run either the tow tune (91 octane with stiffer shifts) or the 87 tune with 89 octane . what i used the most was the additional features like , fog lights and high beams(i repaces my fog lights with bigger spot lights) no beap or head light flash when locking and the lane change tap.
The other day i replaced my wheels and tires ( got a smoking deal ) so i have a tpms light . i was on the superchips webstite and saw an update to turn off the tpms. it took a while with updating the flashpaq to the most current version and now i have lost a few features . i no longer have the data logging and the tpms feature has not loaded. i have tuned , returned to stock , retuned and still no luck and now my speedo is anywhere from 5 to 7 mph off. on monday i will be on the phone with superchips to see what the deal is . but anyways up untill now i have been very happy with my superchips flashpaq F4 .
good luck with your search

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post #20 of 20 Old 01-07-2018, 11:04 AM
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I have been running a superships flashpaq for a few years now and have been very happy for the most part. i run either the tow tune (91 octane with stiffer shifts) or the 87 tune with 89 octane . what i used the most was the additional features like , fog lights and high beams(i repaces my fog lights with bigger spot lights) no beap or head light flash when locking and the lane change tap.
The other day i replaced my wheels and tires ( got a smoking deal ) so i have a tpms light . i was on the superchips webstite and saw an update to turn off the tpms. it took a while with updating the flashpaq to the most current version and now i have lost a few features . i no longer have the data logging and the tpms feature has not loaded. i have tuned , returned to stock , retuned and still no luck and now my speedo is anywhere from 5 to 7 mph off. on monday i will be on the phone with superchips to see what the deal is . but anyways up untill now i have been very happy with my superchips flashpaq F4 .
good luck with your search
Though I have not checked in a while, I think some of the settings that you are changing can actually be changed without a tuner, using the EVIC menu or perhaps the hidden EVIC menu. No tire size or gear ratio changes, though.

Sucks that you lost the data logging function but I can see how it is almost useless on that particular device. It is because you cannot load a custom tune with it. While the data logging might be useful for personal consumption so that you can tweak up the canned tunes, if you are working with a tuner (person) remotely and use files to load the custom tunes, you will probably be asked to do the data logging with the device that works with his/her tuning software. In other words: folks like Diablotoona, Diablew and [email protected] are using the Diablosport CMR software on their end. Getting a custom tune via someone like this would require you to get a Diablosport device - probably a Trinity for the advanced logging and analog inputs (for Wideband o2).

Not sure if there are other tune-by-email guys out there using different tuning software from one of the other device vendors.

The one exception that I am aware of is the HP Tuners package, which is actually full blown software tuning package with a USB logging device that has analog inputs (I think up to 4 - without verifying). This is not something you leave in the vehicle long term because it is tied to software running on a laptop. [email protected] also resells the HP Tuners (as well as Diablosport)
so you could probably get a remote tune from him using the HP Tuners on your end.

Summary:
If you see a custom tune in your future, choose the device carefully (and consider the Trinity).
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