How much runout on unit bearing? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 04:22 PM Thread Starter
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How much runout on unit bearing?

Long story short I'm installing new brakes and when I thought I was done I spun the rotor around and I hear it skipping across the brake pad. I then watch the rotor spin from the side looking down at the brake pads and I can see the rotor appears to be "warped". This is a brand new brake setup with new calipers, pads, and rotors. I start messing with it and finally remove the rotor and measure the run out on the face of the hub and it's around .010". Get that out on the end of a rotor and it grows to .030"+ I measured it. Soooooo..... These are timken bearings and have maybe 500 miles on them.

Ideas?


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post #2 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 05:18 PM
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I just chucked up a new one on the lathe and it had 0.000" runout.

Don't be fooled by the Timken name on the box. I'll bet you'll find ILJIN somewhere on the back side of the flange.

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post #3 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
I just chucked up a new one on the lathe and it had 0.000" runout.

Don't be fooled by the Timken name on the box. I'll bet you'll find ILJIN somewhere on the back side of the flange.
Jeez, those miles were all street miles as well. Does "timken" not warranty these things?
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post #4 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 05:54 PM
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Jeez, those miles were all street miles as well. Does "timken" not warranty these things?
I usually get parts warranty service from the parts house. I don't know if they are covering it, or if the manufacturer is covering it.

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post #5 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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I usually get parts warranty service from the parts house. I don't know if they are covering it, or if the manufacturer is covering it.
I just went back out and inspected the bearing fairly thoroughly. There are no other brand marking besides "TKR" which is Timken.
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post #6 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 06:21 PM
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I just went back out and inspected the bearing fairly thoroughly. There are no other brand marking besides "TKR" which is Timken.
This has changed, then. A couple years ago, Timken and Moog JK hubs were marked ILJIN. If Timken is making them now, I wonder if they are tapered roller bearings rather than the ball bearings like ILJIN uses.

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post #7 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
This has changed, then. A couple years ago, Timken and Moog JK hubs were marked ILJIN. If Timken is making them now, I wonder if they are tapered roller bearings rather than the ball bearings like ILJIN uses.

I think they are the same bearing style, ill send you this shit one if you wanna dissect it.

I "think" I now know what happened to this one. Try to follow me here.... I recently installed these slightly used unit bearings from my stock axle onto my new axle. I decided to keep them as they were so new. When I installed the drivers side I didn't notice it until it was too late that the short shaft was manufactured about .250" too long. So the last couple of threads on the 3 bolts that hold the unit bearing onto the knuckle were super tight and just like a dumbass I powered through it thinking it was the bearing seating into the knuckle. What was actually happening was that the short shaft had ran out of room between the cross pin in the carrier and the bearing seat on the unit bearing and was pinched between those 2 points. As I continued to run it down I'm guessing it "unseated" or "undid" some portion of the race, bearings, or whatever mechanism holds it all together. I should have known then that something got fucked. You don't apply that kind of force to objects like that with no repercussions. Something had to give and im guessing it was the bearing since its so out of wack now.
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post #8 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
I think they are the same bearing style, ill send you this shit one if you wanna dissect it.

I "think" I now know what happened to this one. Try to follow me here.... I recently installed these slightly used unit bearings from my stock axle onto my new axle. I decided to keep them as they were so new. When I installed the drivers side I didn't notice it until it was too late that the short shaft was manufactured about .250" too long. So the last couple of threads on the 3 bolts that hold the unit bearing onto the knuckle were super tight and just like a dumbass I powered through it thinking it was the bearing seating into the knuckle. What was actually happening was that the short shaft had ran out of room between the cross pin in the carrier and the bearing seat on the unit bearing and was pinched between those 2 points. As I continued to run it down I'm guessing it "unseated" or "undid" some portion of the race, bearings, or whatever mechanism holds it all together. I should have known then that something got fucked. You don't apply that kind of force to objects like that with no repercussions. Something had to give and im guessing it was the bearing since its so out of wack now.
The bearing marked TKR is the one you would send me? I certainly would like to dissect it. I can tell you what the failure mode is. It will be added to this thread: OEM Unit Bearing Study

I'll pm you my address.
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post #9 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Yes,I just ordered a replacement.

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post #10 of 15 Old 05-02-2017, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
The bearing marked TKR is the one you would send me? I certainly would like to dissect it. I can tell you what the failure mode is. It will be added to this thread: OEM Unit Bearing Study

I'll pm you my address.
That would be awesome. I can't imagine how many folks you've helped with the studies you put out.

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Yes,I just ordered a replacement.
Stop breaking shit and get that thing on the road.

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post #11 of 15 Old 05-06-2017, 12:03 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
The bearing marked TKR is the one you would send me? I certainly would like to dissect it. I can tell you what the failure mode is. It will be added to this thread: OEM Unit Bearing Study

I'll pm you my address.
Sent, you have a PM.
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post #12 of 15 Old 05-09-2017, 11:45 AM
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Dkjeep's bearing arrived today. I chucked it in the lathe and measured the runout. It was a pretty close to 0.014". That's with the housing in the jaws, and turning only the flange.
After disassembly, I checked the runout between the spindle and the flange. It's all one piece. The runout was 0.0025"; significantly less than before disassembly. I chucked it several times in different positions to verify the measurement.
I haven't figured out why there is such a difference.

Other than the runout, I see no damage to the ball bearings and races.
The hub is identical to the OEM hubs made by ILJIN. The races are machined into the housing and onto the spindle, then locally hardened.
I could not find any evidence Dkjeep's assembly procedures outlined above had any direct relation to the hub's runout. It's more like the bearing was made that way, or suffered a blow from a pot hole or during wheeling.



The flange has a Timken part number, and TKR stamped into it. The TKR is a different font, and is deeper than the other stampings.

On the box, (this one and the one from a few years ago), there are the following statements:

"Distributed by The Timken Company.
Timken® Service Parts are carefully chosen from select manufacturers."

The box from a few years ago had "Made in the USA" on it. This new box does not.

The bearing from a few years ago had ILJIN stamped on it. This new one does not.

Based on the statements on the boxes, I believe Timken is still not making the JK unit bearings. The TKR is likely being stamped on the flange at the point of manufacture, possibly ILJIN, as in the recent past.

Once the disassembled hub is cleaned up, I'll take some pictures and add them to this thread: https://www.jkowners.com/forum/stock-...ing-study.html

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post #13 of 15 Old 05-09-2017, 01:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
Dkjeep's bearing arrived today. I chucked it in the lathe and measured the runout. It was a pretty close to 0.014". That's with the housing in the jaws, and turning only the flange.
After disassembly, I checked the runout between the spindle and the flange. It's all one piece. The runout was 0.0025"; significantly less than before disassembly. I chucked it several times in different positions to verify the measurement.
I haven't figured out why there is such a difference.

Other than the runout, I see no damage to the ball bearings and races.
The hub is identical to the OEM hubs made by ILJIN. The races are machined into the housing and onto the spindle, then locally hardened.
I could not find any evidence Dkjeep's assembly procedures outlined above had any direct relation to the hub's runout. It's more like the bearing was made that way, or suffered a blow from a pot hole or during wheeling.



The flange has a Timken part number, and TKR stamped into it. The TKR is a different font, and is deeper than the other stampings.

On the box, (this one and the one from a few years ago), there are the following statements:

"Distributed by The Timken Company.
Timken® Service Parts are carefully chosen from select manufacturers."

The box from a few years ago had "Made in the USA" on it. This new box does not.

The bearing from a few years ago had ILJIN stamped on it. This new one does not.

Based on the statements on the boxes, I believe Timken is still not making the JK unit bearings. The TKR is likely being stamped on the flange at the point of manufacture, possibly ILJIN, as in the recent past.

Once the disassembled hub is cleaned up, I'll take some pictures and add them to this thread: https://www.jkowners.com/forum/stock-...ing-study.html
I dont know if I noted this or not but when it was still bolted to the knuckle and the rotor was bolted to the flange I could grab the top of the rotor and pull back and fourth and feel a slight "clunk" or play if you will in the bearing. That bearing had maybe 300-500 miles on it and zero wheeling. The passenger side was replaced at the same time and there is zero noticeable play or run-out like that one has.

Either way I'm not going to do the new one any favors with a heavy 40" tire and big brakes! Good info, please update if you find an anomaly that would have caused that. It has to either be the bearing or the "housing" is screwed since you checked the runout of the flange / spindle. However I consider .0025" too much runout on a supposedly precision surface like that. I would expect sub thousandth measurements when new.

Last edited by Dkjeep; 05-09-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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post #14 of 15 Old 05-09-2017, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
I dont know if I noted this or not but when it was still bolted to the knuckle and the rotor was bolted to the flange I could grab the top of the rotor and pull back and fourth and feel a slight "clunk" or play if you will in the bearing. That bearing had maybe 300-500 miles on it and zero wheeling. The passenger side was replaced at the same time and there is zero noticeable play or run-out like that one has.

Either way I'm not going to do the new one any favors with a heavy 40" tire and big brakes! Good info, please update if you find an anomaly that would have caused that. It has to either be the bearing or the "housing" is screwed since you checked the runout of the flange / spindle. However I consider .0025" too much runout on a supposedly precision surface like that. I would expect sub thousandth measurements when new.
When you checked and found some play in the bearing, you had the rotor bolted to the flange with no tire/wheel installed?
I checked for play in the bearing before disassembly, but had no more leverage to work with than grabbing the flange and housing. It felt tight.

The new JK hubs I have checked have virtually zero runout.

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post #15 of 15 Old 05-09-2017, 03:17 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, I was fitting new brakes when I noticed this issue. I put the rotor on with nothing else and ran some lugnuts down on it as if it were mounted. With the extra leverage of the rotor you could clearly feel the play in the bearing.

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