Pinion nut rotational torque - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 27 Old 03-31-2017, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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Pinion nut rotational torque

Bought a JE Reel 1310 front shaft to buy me some time till I can start my build in anger. This means I have to install new yokes.

Tires off, pads/pistons compressed in the calipers, just like Reel says to do.

When I measured the rotational torque to spin the pinion, I get 2.5 in/lbs. That's with a Snap On in/lb dial torque meter. I can spin it with a couple fingers.

I guess it is what it is, just seems excessively low. But, I'll just follow the rest of the procedure and slap the new shit on.

Just wondering what others got for a rotational torque reading when doing this.

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post #2 of 27 Old 03-31-2017, 10:07 PM
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Is your torque reading from before you broke the torque on the original yoke nut?

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post #3 of 27 Old 03-31-2017, 10:10 PM
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I just tore down/re installed my rear for truss welding and straightening.

Before - pinion only: 5 ~ 5+ in lbs.
Reinstall - new seal & pinion only: 5+ ~ 6 in lbs.
Continuous rotational torque - After initial rotation "Start up"

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post #4 of 27 Old 03-31-2017, 11:09 PM
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I was at about 7 in-lbs, couldn't get it over 5 afterwards cranking it down as hard as I could and didn't want to start using huge torque and risk crushing the sleeve any further. Seeing that these single digit numbers are all far too low (should be 20-40 in-lbs for just the pinion by spec, and we also have gears, carrier bearings, and wheel bearings included the way this is being done), I don't think this measurement means much on old bearings with miles on them. The spec is for initial setup.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
Is your torque reading from before you broke the torque on the original yoke nut?
Yes, I haven't touched the original nut yet. Other than taking the reading.

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Originally Posted by Sirjeepalot View Post
I just tore down/re installed my rear for truss welding and straightening.

Before - pinion only: 5 ~ 5+ in lbs.
Reinstall - new seal & pinion only: 5+ ~ 6 in lbs.
Continuous rotational torque - After initial rotation "Start up"
Ok, cool. Thanks. I did find another thread on here and they had 20in/lbs.

So, it just doesn't take much to spin these things. Apparently I was expecting a lot higher number.

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post #6 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 01:22 AM
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2.5 inch lbs seems impossible. Are you sure your wrench is accurate and in inch lbs not foot lbs. 2.5 ft lbs is 30 inch lbs. Bearing preload for used bearings should be 10-20 in lbs for the pinion only. Another 7-11 if I remember right with the carrier installed. If you got axle shafts in there that will add even more. 20 + 11 = 31 in lbs. less than 2.5 ft lbs. Being that the shafts are installed I would assume that added at least 5 inch lbs.
That being said seems like your torque wrench is messed up or is ft lbs.
Back to completing the job. Assuming your axle is working fine and not making horrible noises like it would if your preload is zero. I would set that torque wrench to the side. Remove the yoke pop on the new yoke and torque to the minimum nut setting of 160 ft lbs . This will not increase preload by squashing the crush sleeve but will keep it tight and work out any slop. Give it a good tap after the first torque then torque a second time. This will insure all slop is out . Make sure to use plenty of thread locker. I did this on mine and it went 25000 miles no problems. I regeared at 25k and probably would have lasted till my differential blew up.
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post #7 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 07:04 AM
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Once the bearings and gears are run a long time like yours they do spin very easily. I've always used the 20 - 40 in. lb. on the new setup but that torque never is the same for me on a well broken in unit.

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post #8 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 07:36 AM
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20-40 in-lbs is a spec for NEW bearings. If you reinstall old bearings the spec is like half that. This is only a spec for when they are new! Taper roller bearings will wear and loosen up drastically as you all see with your readings. I would set it back to 10 or so inch pounds at minimum and call it a day. It's not gonna hurt shit and isn't excessive. What your reading tells me is that your bearings have a lot of miles on them, have lived a hard life so far, or weren't setup with enough drag torque to start with.
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post #9 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 07:58 AM
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im an '11 unlimited owner w/ enough play and potential for rock damage w/ my rear OEM shaft that I'm about to go down to garage and install the new Woodsy 1310 rear D.C. I ordered.
This is makin me really unclear on wtf I should find with my cheap lil non-dial , 5-75 INCH lb clicker torque wrench I bought to check preload before removing these stock flanges.

I read I might see as low as 2" lbs ( I can't read that low w el Cheapo torque wrench )but as high as 20 inch lbs because these aren't new pinion bearings and axleshafts ? I've had 4340 chromos in for past 20k out back , fwiw.
I think I'll just torque to 160 foot lbs , maybe a wee more after a tap at that torque, then call it good .

I'll try n see what another well broken in pinion bearing returns for inch pounds and report back l8r today .


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post #10 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
im an '11 unlimited owner w/ enough play and potential for rock damage w/ my rear OEM shaft that I'm about to go down to garage and install the new Woodsy 1310 rear D.C. I ordered.
This is makin me really unclear on wtf I should find with my cheap lil non-dial , 5-75 INCH lb clicker torque wrench I bought to check preload before removing these stock flanges.

I read I might see as low as 2" lbs ( I can't read that low w el Cheapo torque wrench )but as high as 20 inch lbs because these aren't new pinion bearings and axleshafts ? I've had 4340 chromos in for past 20k out back , fwiw.
I think I'll just torque to 160 foot lbs , maybe a wee more after a tap at that torque, then call it good .

I'll try n see what another well broken in pinion bearing returns for inch pounds and report back l8r today .
You can't measure rotational torque with a tool like that. You have to have an inch pound dial torque wrench. Otherwise you are just measuring break away torque and not running torque. Break away is always higher as it will spike before it gets rolling.

The good news is that the crush sleeves in the rear 44 axle are some of the hardest Crush sleeves I have ever dealt with ever. You would be hard-pressed with regular tools to crush that thing any further than it is now. You would bare minimum need a badass impact or a huge breaker bar to run that thing down any further than it is now.

So what I'm saying is.... since you don't have the proper tool. Before you remove the nut make sure that your wheels are off, the brakes and not dragging, and the e-brake is off. Then just get on it there see how it feels by hand. Replace your yoke and run and nut back down tight and see how it feels.

Just FYI you're going to need a two or three jaw puller to get the stock yoke off. They don't slip on and off by hand but the aftermarket one that you have now will.
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post #11 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 08:25 AM
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Since this is about swapping yokes, anyone having issues with the moving the dust shield from the factory yoke to the aftermarket yoke. I had to cut the flange off and spot weld the dust shield from the factory yoke to the aftermarket yoke. Why the aftermarket had a ever so slightly larger diameter is a mystery - unless they assumed that the seal had "worn down" some from the factory yoke??
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post #12 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
You can't measure rotational torque with a tool like that. You have to have an inch pound dial torque wrench. Otherwise you are just measuring break away torque and not running torque. Break away is always higher as it will spike before it gets rolling.

The good news is that the crush sleeves in the rear 44 axle are some of the hardest Crush sleeves I have ever dealt with ever. You would be hard-pressed with regular tools to crush that thing any further than it is now. You would bare minimum need a badass impact or a huge breaker bar to run that thing down any further than it is now.

So what I'm saying is.... since you don't have the proper tool. Before you remove the nut make sure that your wheels are off, the brakes and not dragging, and the e-brake is off. Then just get on it there see how it feels by hand. Replace your yoke and run and nut back down tight and see how it feels.

Just FYI you're going to need a two or three jaw puller to get the stock yoke off. They don't slip on and off by hand but the aftermarket one that you have now will.


Geez, thanks , @Dkjeep . Yep, I own a three jaw puller but that was extremely useful help on the torque. I did not know that or wouldn't have spent $60 on this useless inch lb torquewrench and additional $10 on 1/2 to 3/8" adapters for it , heh.

I have heard the dust shield does need to be used on some and others say it isn't necessary( my T. Woods doesn't reuse the dust shield ) , @Nucleophile . That sounds like a pita to swap those




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post #13 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post

Geez, thanks , @Dkjeep . Yep, I own a three jaw puller but that was extremely useful help on the torque. I did not know that or wouldn't have spent $60 on this useless inch lb torquewrench and additional $10 on 1/2 to 3/8" adapters for it , heh.

I have heard the dust shield does need to be used on some and others say it isn't necessary( my T. Woods doesn't reuse the dust shield ) , @Nucleophile . That sounds like a pita to swap those


I have one identical to this except its max reading is 50 in-lbs. so it is easier to read as the graduations are spread out more.


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post #14 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 10:02 AM
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I have one identical to this except its max reading is 50 in-lbs. so it is easier to read as the graduations are spread out more.
X
yep. That's the real deal ( real dial?) . Even used those things are $400 or more. Pretty swanky.


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post #15 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 10:06 AM
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yep. That's the real deal ( real dial?) . Even used those things are $400 or more. Pretty swanky.
Its definitely not for the casual mechanic as I have ZERO other use for the tool besides this one task.
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post #16 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
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I have heard the dust shield does need to be used on some and others say it isn't necessary( my T. Woods doesn't reuse the dust shield ) , @Nucleophile . That sounds like a pita to swap those


Huh? Needs to used on some and not necessary on others?? WTF. The dust shield is the first line of defense to keep dirt, mud and grit out of the outer rubber seal. Unless the replacement yoke comes with a new dust shield on it (which I have never seen) I don't see how any yoke could negate the need for a dust shield.

Its really a choice. Run without it and probably shorten the life of the seal, or transfer it over and extend the life of the seal. The seal is part of the housing, or transfer case (as the case may be, no pun intended). Its either going to be protected or not.

What you might be referring to is that some PEOPLE think it is unnecessary, and depending on your point of view that is true. You can leave it off and everything will be just fine......but for how long?
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post #17 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 10:41 AM
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An inch/lb. beam torque wrench will also work well for this, and is a lot less expensive than a dial torque wrench.
This is the one I use:



You guys are all on the right page here, but I'd like to add a little more detail.

Getting a torque to rotate reading before the nut is loosened is only part of the process. When the new nut is installed, it gets torqued to 160 ft/lbs, as mentioned above, then more torque is applied in 5 ft/lb increments until the torque to rotate is 5 in/lbs more than the initial reading from before disassembly. If you are able to get the 5 in/lb increase before reaching 200 ft/lbs on the nut, the crush sleeve is OK and is still doing its job. Otherwise, the crush sleeve must be replaced. If you go past the desired torque to rotate, don't back off the nut to bring it in. Get a new crush sleeve and start over.

Lots of people just torque to 160 ft/lbs and call it good. It seems most people get away with it. But then, maybe we just don't hear from them again.
Once in a while, someone will do that, then post about issues that are related to loss of bearing preload.
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post #18 of 27 Old 04-01-2017, 10:43 AM
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+1 on taping the yolk after preload is met and re checking.
+1 on the dust shield, the aftermarket doesn't give a shit how long YOUR gear lasts as long as you buy more.

Pinion nut torque is irrelevant and just a "what to expect" thing really. On old bearing and replacement yolk situation all your after is: Remove the slop and obtain preload just over what you measured initially, that's all.[/U]
Other than: pre-lube the seal surface on the yolk and lock tight pinion nut.
I would not go over 10 in lbs continuous rotational torque on old bearings.

And +1 on the New crush sleeve.

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post #19 of 27 Old 04-04-2017, 04:25 PM
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@gt1guy thanks for letting us keep yer thread rollin' ...At least I hope that's cool.


@Dkjeep and everybody who is participating in this ,thanks again. I used the " guage-by-hand" then a beam inch lb torque wrench and only had to torque pinion nut to 175ft lbs which was 5 or 10inch lbs more rotational torque than it had been before loosening the nut in disassembly step . The suggestion to torque down pinion nut , tap with her to break away any bind and then retighten was very sage advice.
All this info + a couple of other threads helped .

For the subject of the dust shield around pinion , @Nucleophile
I got mine off the stock flange easily at which time I remembered the install of the front Woods shaft also didn't use the dust shield so checked and Tom Wood's states that the billet flange OD is machined to a diameter that is a better fit for the seal and it's not recommend that the stock dust shield be reused with it or it could chew up the seal. Others remind that the surplus RTV that oozes out around the splines and behind washer do a fine job at dust and debris exclusion. I dunno if that goes the same for other yoke pinion DS brands , but Synergy Mfg's install PDF instructions for front and rear shafts say to leave off if new shaft doesn't come with dust Shields fwiw.

Last info potentially useful is , hosing the flange/pinion nut and threads down with HD penetrating lube after OEM driveshaft was removed but before breaking nuts loose must have made the notoriously stubborn stock flanges at both xfer case and pinion happy to leave because I literally tapped both , lightly and maybe 4-5 times , with a hammer and the old flanges that had over 90k miles on them just slid right off.

I didn't look that gift horse in the mouth and was kinda bummed I didn't get to use the old 3jaw puller and cuss a bunch .

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post #20 of 27 Old 04-04-2017, 07:00 PM
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Fwiw, I've only had the flanges at the axles be a bitch to get off. The ones at the transfer case have slid right off aftet the nut was removed.

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All you have to do it smack the backside of the flange a few time with a hammer spinning it to be even and they come right off. It's really simple.


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post #22 of 27 Old 04-04-2017, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
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For the subject of the dust shield around pinion , @Nucleophile
I got mine off the stock flange easily at which time I remembered the install of the front Woods shaft also didn't use the dust shield so checked and Tom Wood's states that the billet flange OD is machined to a diameter that is a better fit for the seal and it's not recommend that the stock dust shield be reused with it or it could chew up the seal. Others remind that the surplus RTV that oozes out around the splines and behind washer do a fine job at dust and debris exclusion. I dunno if that goes the same for other yoke pinion DS brands , but Synergy Mfg's install PDF instructions for front and rear shafts say to leave off if new shaft doesn't come with dust Shields fwiw.


A better fit than what the FCA engineers designed it for? I think I call BS on that. Now if tom woods had said the OD is machined larger to compensate for some wear in the seal, I could buy that logic. And since the flange is machined larger than stock the stock dust shield will not fit without modification. I did a write up in another thread about how I cut the inner lip off of the stock dust shield and tack welded the damn thing to the new yoke. There is NOTHING anywhere close to the outer seal that would tear it up. But is does keep mud and dust and shit out of the seal.

For some reason, whoever makes the new yokes machines them to be slightly larger than stock. My theory is they are trying to allow for wear in the seal, assuming that most people are doing this swap with xx,xxx miles on the seal. Obviously they are not going to include modifying the stock dust shield to make it fit because nobody would buy their driveshafts - too much work. So they say, just toss it. I would rather they just include a new dust shield that is machined to fit the new yoke flange. But that costs money and it is easier to say "its not needed".
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post #23 of 27 Old 04-04-2017, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
An inch/lb. beam torque wrench will also work well for this, and is a lot less expensive than a dial torque wrench.
This is the one I use:



You guys are all on the right page here, but I'd like to add a little more detail.

Getting a torque to rotate reading before the nut is loosened is only part of the process. When the new nut is installed, it gets torqued to 160 ft/lbs, as mentioned above, then more torque is applied in 5 ft/lb increments until the torque to rotate is 5 in/lbs more than the initial reading from before disassembly. If you are able to get the 5 in/lb increase before reaching 200 ft/lbs on the nut, the crush sleeve is OK and is still doing its job. Otherwise, the crush sleeve must be replaced. If you go past the desired torque to rotate, don't back off the nut to bring it in. Get a new crush sleeve and start over.

Lots of people just torque to 160 ft/lbs and call it good. It seems most people get away with it. But then, maybe we just don't hear from them again.
Once in a while, someone will do that, then post about issues that are related to loss of bearing preload.
I use the same type. For the record, mine is made by Park Bike Tools. It's for bicycles lol. The 1/4" drive means you gotta get creative with stepdowns.

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@gt1guy thanks for letting us keep yer thread rollin' ...At least I hope that's cool.
Absolutely. There's a lot of great info here. Hopefully it help folks out in the future.

I ended up getting 5in/lbs over my initial rotational torque at 180ft/lbs.

The dust cover for the (front) pinion just flopped around on the new JE Reel yoke. So I took a center punch and made 4 spots that closed up the ID in the cover. Tapped it in place with a little RTV for good measure.

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post #25 of 27 Old 04-05-2017, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post

The dust cover for the (front) pinion just flopped around on the new JE Reel yoke. So I took a center punch and made 4 spots that closed up the ID in the cover. Tapped it in place with a little RTV for good measure.
Same here on my Adams rear 1350. I was able to close the ID of the dust shield a little with a few light hammer taps. Then it was a tight fit onto my new 1350 rear pinion yoke.

Changing pinion seals is a PITA. Might as well reuse the dust cover, it adds a little protection and it's not like it cost anything extra lol
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