241 transfer case, how much abuse can it take? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 01:40 PM Thread Starter
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241 transfer case, how much abuse can it take?

For a non rubi T-case (don't know if that matters or not) I had once heard from someone on here that they had either successfully pushed 400+ hp through it and it survived or that it is rated for that kind of HP. At the time for some reason I just assumed that meant they had pushed that kind of power through the t-case successfully while in 4wd. I had no real idea how the thing even worked until I split mine open for modification. Now that I see that there is not one solid shaft going from trans output shaft to rear driveshaft yoke I have to wonder how much power can it absorb? There are several parts in there that connect together to transfer that power from the trans to the driveshaft.

I'm starting to wonder if it will take the 500+ hp being input and survive and I'm only talking about 2wd.
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post #2 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 02:37 PM
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Pretty tough , I've got a LS-3 and I abuse it pretty regular .

The only thing that I have heard is that they are not very tolerant to front drive shaft vibrations , no real experience in that regard myself , but there has been a thread or two that I remember on here about the transfer case self destructing on the highway .
Mine sees a lot of use in the sand where there is a fair amount of wheel spin and then traction, repeated cycles, creates a fair amount of stress under moderate throttle , speeds of 45-50 and wheel speed of as high as 75 . I don't think that there is much that can be done to hurt one as long as you don't crunch the gear shifter or try 2nd-3rd gear launches at pro stock like RPM .
A sensible amount of restraint and the 241 is a fairly stout piece .

And as usual the Atlas is pretty much beef but I don't see the need at this point personally , if I destroy mine I'll upgrade , otherwise I think I'm OK even at 430 HP . But I do like the ability of the Twin Stick to run in front wheel drive , that would be pretty cool .
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post #3 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 05:07 PM
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I have been running close to 500HP thru mine without any issues. I split a rear yukon zip locker but the 241J held up just fine.


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post #4 of 25 Old 02-02-2017, 09:59 PM
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The majority of stock JK transfercase failures that I have seen have been on the highway at high speed in 2wd. You know what that means, vibes killed it.

I dont exactly have a ton of horsepower, but I have huge stickies and a heavy foot. It's never let me down.

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post #5 of 25 Old 02-03-2017, 08:17 AM
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Exactly what Tweak said. Vibes are what kill them. I can't find the reference, but it can handle upwards of 700-800 lb ft of torque. Some versions were also used in Dodge trucks, etc.


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post #6 of 25 Old 02-03-2017, 11:11 AM
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Besides vibes, the only other real concern is the planetary (so, 4low).

Its a 3 pinion (planet) gear as opposed to the 6 in older NP241's or the NP241OR (Rubicon).

Under heavy bind in 4low it may be the fuse, but I'm not sure how it stacks up to the strength of the chain.

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post #7 of 25 Old 02-03-2017, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Good info guys, I feel a bit more confident now.
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post #8 of 25 Old 02-03-2017, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusion 4x4 View Post
Exactly what Tweak said. Vibes are what kill them. I can't find the reference, but it can handle upwards of 700-800 lb ft of torque. Some versions were also used in Dodge trucks, etc.
Oh, and that was always a case failure, not a drive failure, I should add.

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post #9 of 25 Old 02-26-2017, 10:17 AM
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Here locally, we have had 2 Hemi swaps with stock transfer cases that did not last long. One of the cases lasted 1 wheeling trip, the other lasted 3 wheeling trips. Both ended up with extremely stretched chains and had to be replaced.

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post #10 of 25 Old 02-26-2017, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by COVRT Gear View Post
Here locally, we have had 2 Hemi swaps with stock transfer cases that did not last long. One of the cases lasted 1 wheeling trip, the other lasted 3 wheeling trips. Both ended up with extremely stretched chains and had to be replaced.
That was just the chain though? I plan on being easy on it in 4wd, its mainly when I am beating on it in 2wd that I was concerned with.
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post #11 of 25 Old 02-27-2017, 12:04 PM
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That was just the chain though? I plan on being easy on it in 4wd, its mainly when I am beating on it in 2wd that I was concerned with.
Yes, both were stretched because of 4WD. They replaced them with Atlas's for the added strength.

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post #12 of 25 Old 02-27-2017, 05:49 PM
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They have to be pretty tough, Motech uses the 241J with a modified (stronger) input shaft behind the 6L80 in the majority of the their LS Swaps. I would say unless you have Dana 60's you have weaker links in the system than that T-Case.
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post #13 of 25 Old 02-28-2017, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COVRT Gear View Post
Here locally, we have had 2 Hemi swaps with stock transfer cases that did not last long. One of the cases lasted 1 wheeling trip, the other lasted 3 wheeling trips. Both ended up with extremely stretched chains and had to be replaced.
That T-case was also previously used on heavy duty Dodge Ram and GM trucks. It is well known for its strength in those applications with few faults. It seems suspect that a truck engine swap in a JK would cause rapid failure. There is a notable amount of play in the JK t-case that is often misdiagnosed as a stretched chain.

In a street driven JK without locking front hubs, I would prefer not to be grinding gears away on an Atlas.


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post #14 of 25 Old 02-28-2017, 06:06 PM Thread Starter
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They have to be pretty tough, Motech uses the 241J with a modified (stronger) input shaft behind the 6L80 in the majority of the their LS Swaps.

The LS swap kit that I got uses the novak kit for the transfer case adapter. It comes with the aluminum adapter plate and an input gear that has to be swapped in. I don't know exactly what motech uses but I would have to assume its similar to novak or some of the same parts. I know they have access to a different adapter plate but not sure on the input gear.

Speaking to the gear only I would say its the same not stronger, just different spec wise to make the conversion work.
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post #15 of 25 Old 02-28-2017, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
The LS swap kit that I got uses the novak kit for the transfer case adapter. It comes with the aluminum adapter plate and an input gear that has to be swapped in. I don't know exactly what motech uses but I would have to assume its similar to novak or some of the same parts. I know they have access to a different adapter plate but not sure on the input gear.

Speaking to the gear only I would say its the same not stronger, just different spec wise to make the conversion work.
Copied and pasted from my Motech Builders Kit instructions.
Regarding the input gear:
"The 241 J transfer case uses a 2.7:1 front planetary with a 23 spline front input gear. While weak once you install our HD 32 spline input gear the 241 J is good for 450+ HP."

Regarding the adapter:
"Motech offers two transfer case adapters. The first is a full size adapter that runs a HD GM 4x4 transmission mount. This adapter is very strong and bolts the transmission mount directly to the adapter with two 7/16 studs which mount directly to the transmission plates. It is highly recommended you run this adapter due to the strength. This adapter mimics the GM transfer case adapter but clocks the transfer case to the proper positon. In addition this HD adapter is longer so it is compatible with a 2WD 6l80s when you must cut off the output shaft. On some 2WD 6l80s there is not enough spline to run the compact adapter below.
The second adapter is shorter than the HD adapter and helps maintain driveshaft length in a 2 door JK. This adapter uses the MoTech L bracket to adapt the horizontal studs to a full size GM transmission mount. The full size GM 4x4 mount is stronger than the single stud 2WD mount and aftermarket poly mounts. We do not recommend this adapter for high HP applications."

I will be using the shorter adapter as with 3.5" of lift on my 2 door, I need all the drive shaft length I can get.
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post #16 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 08:12 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ajkaz View Post
Copied and pasted from my Motech Builders Kit instructions.
Regarding the input gear:
"The 241 J transfer case uses a 2.7:1 front planetary with a 23 spline front input gear. While weak once you install our HD 32 spline input gear the 241 J is good for 450+ HP."


I will be using the shorter adapter as with 3.5" of lift on my 2 door, I need all the drive shaft length I can get.

The short adapter is the novak kit. It is the one I have as well. The statement about the transfer case being weak until their input gear is installed is a little bit of a stretch. The gear that is provided with the novak kit comes from novak although is not made by them only modified by them and is of no higher structural quality. If anything I would say its weaker for reasons that would take a while to explain and drag the novak name through the mud a tad. Its been established already that this t-case can handle that kind of power without mods. Motech isn't doing any special magic here.
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post #17 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 09:32 AM
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The short adapter is the novak kit. It is the one I have as well. The statement about the transfer case being weak until their input gear is installed is a little bit of a stretch. The gear that is provided with the novak kit comes from novak although is not made by them only modified by them and is of no higher structural quality. If anything I would say its weaker for reasons that would take a while to explain and drag the novak name through the mud a tad. Its been established already that this t-case can handle that kind of power without mods. Motech isn't doing any special magic here.
Thats good to know, thanks. With the short adapter how much farther back was your T-case output? Any more upward rotation of the rear axle is going to cause problems (more work) for me.
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post #18 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
The short adapter is the novak kit. It is the one I have as well. The statement about the transfer case being weak until their input gear is installed is a little bit of a stretch. The gear that is provided with the novak kit comes from novak although is not made by them only modified by them and is of no higher structural quality. If anything I would say its weaker for reasons that would take a while to explain and drag the novak name through the mud a tad. Its been established already that this t-case can handle that kind of power without mods. Motech isn't doing any special magic here.
The weak link is the small input in the 241J to match the small output of the NSG and 42RLE. In the early days we saw the small output shafts of the 4l60's twisting under the power of a 6 liter engine. The 4l65 was a good transmission behind small blocks and other V8's but when strength was required you needed to step up to the 4l80, esprcially with large tires that grab and don't spin. The larger LS's like the 6.2's went to the 6l80 which shares the larger output shaft of the 4l80 to handle the additional torque. A 6.0 engine in stock trim can put out near 400 ft pounds of torque and a 6.2 well over 400. The small input in the 241J was the weak point. I had one customer break an output shaft on a 4l65 with a 6.0 so he purchased a custom hardened output shaft and twisted that.

Some Hemi guys have good luck running the J behind the Chrysler transmission but we found from experience going to the large input makes the 241J hold up to 450-500 HP on the street(in reality it's not so much the gear as the larger OS). Remember we have done hundreds of conversions and this is our experience over many years.

We like and work with Novak all the time. I believe Novak is now outsourcing the input gears and they are imported but we never had a problem when we used them. The Novak adapter uses two horizontal studs to support a somewhat thin "L" bracket which mounts a rather small poly transmission mount. Early on we used the Novak adapter because it was shorter than our full size adapter to get better DS length. We replaced the small "L" bracket(as you know) with a larger stronger "L" bracket to support the full size HD GM 2 stud 4x4 mount.

I still prefer our full size clocking ring with the transmission mount bolting horizontal to the adapter, the same way GM does it. On very high HP builds I feel the direct bolt method is stronger than the cantilevered "L" bracket with the small poly mount.

If converting a 2WD 6l80 to a 4WD you may have an issue with the Novak adapter since it is shorter and some of the 6l80 output shafts are not splined far back enough. You can run a short input gear or a .5" spacer but it's easier to run the full size adapter which is the same size as the stock TC GM adapter.

We don't have any magic just experience, we have been doing LS JK swaps since 2009.

I do agree with the above statement about the gear vs chain TC on the street. The geared TC's run heavy gear oil, have critical tolerances, can be slightly noisy, need to warm up, hard to shift... where the chain case runs ATF, an oil pump, is quiet... But when it comes to off road the A2 has many advantages which make it worth having. In addition I know Advance is improving the A2 right now to make it even better.

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post #19 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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We like and work with Novak all the time. I believe Novak is now outsourcing the input gears and they are imported but we never had a problem when we used them. The Novak adapter uses two horizontal studs to support a somewhat thin "L" bracket which mounts a rather small poly transmission mount. Early on we used the Novak adapter because it was shorter than our full size adapter to get better DS length. We replaced the small "L" bracket(as you know) with a larger stronger "L" bracket to support the full size HD GM 2 stud 4x4 mount.
The box that the input gear came in had a big ole "made in china" sticker on it so I think your assumption is correct there.

Also there is no doubt hands down that your L bracket and mount is so far beyond superior to the small poly mount that comes with it that its not even funny.

My issue with the conversion input gear that was provided in the novak kit is as follows, and I will try to be as gentle as possible here... I don't want to kick anyone in the nuts.

The gear and the bearing that seats on it have a slip fit but it is a tight tolerance slip fit which is good as you don't need a press or special tools to swap the bearing or the gear. My speculation about the gear after seeing 3 of them now is that it is not a piece that is made specifically for this swap. Rather it is a piece that happens to fit and work for this swap with a little bit of modification that is either performed by novak or some third party. All I can tell you for 100% sure is that the gear does not come the way that you will get it for this swap when it is new out of its factory. The gear has been modified in a way to extend the bearing seat to match the factory gear. The problem is who ever did the machining did not properly indicate in the original part and the extended bearing seat was machined on 2 different pieces off center by .003". This does not sound like much but the slip fit as intended is probably .001" TOPS. When I tried to seat the gear into the bearing it would just hit a stop and not go down past a point. When I pulled the bearing out of the case to fit it by hand and diagnose the issue I found out what was going on. After contacting novak about it they sent another and it was identical. I had to put it on my personal lathe and machine it properly to get it to fit. The other kicker is that this gear is hardened but only on the surface so everywhere that they machined it the material is very soft (for steel) and I wonder if it will lead to any kind of premature wear and slop on the gear.

Photo in the next post of the area I am talking about.....
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post #20 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 10:08 AM Thread Starter
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The area below the pick down to the seat is where they removed material to make this gear work with this conversion.

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post #21 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 11:14 AM
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We've never had an issue with the 6l80 input gear regardless of brand, we use to turn our own input gears out. The 6l90 input gear Novak sells has a rather thin wall because the larger output of the 6l90 but we have run several without issue.

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post #22 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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We've never had an issue with the 6l80 input gear regardless of brand, we use to turn our own input gears out. The 6l90 input gear Novak sells has a rather thin wall because the larger output of the 6l90 but we have run several without issue.
I would have rather had an unmolested specimen to machine myself instead of what I got. I could have done 10x better job.
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post #23 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 11:55 AM
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I would have rather had an unmolested specimen to machine myself instead of what I got. I could have done 10x better job.
It's somewhat of a pain if you start with a 241C input gear that is hardened and then modded, currently our gears are made from scratch then hardened properly. Make sure the pocket bearing is installed I have seen them left out.

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post #24 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 03:17 PM
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In addition I know Advance is improving the A2 right now to make it even better.
Care to elaborate? ETA?


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post #25 of 25 Old 03-01-2017, 04:40 PM
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Care to elaborate? ETA?
That's tough to answer but I can say I work with Mike and Steve over at AA on a regular basis. AA has built a test rig inside a Jeep with the floor cut out so they can monitor case temps, the affect exhaust heat has, oil viscosity but most importantly clearances. The Atlas case is aluminum and expands when hot. The front output section is supported by tapered rollers instead of roller bearings, this means end play is critical so this must be factored into the design. Tapered rollers on the steel spindle of a car is very different than in the A2.

Then you have gear to gear contact vs a chain which is very tolerant. Remember when the Atlas became popular we were putting around in 4 and 6 cylinder Jeeps putting out 100-200 HP, crawling in 3,500 pound 2 door Jeeps. It's a different world today, 6,000 pound JK's with 400 HP cruising at 80 mph for hours on end, this is a huge load on the TC, especially without unlocking hubs. Imagine going 80 mph around a sweeping turn in the mountains of Colorado, the front and rear shafts turning at different speeds generating heat and friction, especially with heavy gear oil. Unlocking hubs pretty much eliminate this issue but the stock JK does not have unlocking hubs. Then some guys wrap the exhaust pipes around the Atlas putting more heat into it.

In reality if you drive normal it's unlikely you will ever have an issue with an Atlas, like anything else if you push it stuff can happen. I have customers drive 80-90 mph for a full tank of gas because they can. Add climbing hills and wide sweeping turns and that is a lot of load and heat on a TC. A chain driven TC with ATF has less friction, less heat and a different a bearing design to support the shafts. In addition the Atlas is splash oiled where the 241 has an oil pump.

We all know Advance is adding an oil pump to the A2, I saw it when they came up to SEMA, I don't know the release date; but if I remember it's more for towing then anything else. I am confident AA will continue to refine the Atlas to make it better in every way, it is evolving along with us. The Gen V and LS3 JK's you saw go to Fordyce both had A2's in them, they drove over 500 miles there and back and ran the trail with no issues.

We are currently doing four builds with Atlas's. I will say we stay away from the A4's with the V8 swaps, one it's not needed in most cases and the high low section poses a different set of issues. If you talk to AA they will tell you they prefer the A2 with a V8. If you get an Atlas and can afford unlocking hubs you will have the ultimate set up IMO.

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