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post #1 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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Weld Critique

Hey guys, I need some opinions here. I'm getting my Evo rock sliders next week and I need to find a good welder around town.

I found a local guy who owns a "fabrication" shop and I took a pic of his Mustangs roll cage today.

How do these welds look? should I keep looking for a welder or are these good enough for my rock sliders?? I'm no where near an expert when it comes to welds so any comments are welcome
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post #2 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 01:19 PM
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ive seen worse but it isnt the best. he should be able to weld the rockers on for you them welds will hold fine. i got some welding experience behind me certified in stick mig tig tube and some other stuff. just dont forget to unplug your battery

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post #3 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 01:24 PM
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do you got any more pics might be able to tell a little better. when you was looking at his welds were they all consistant or was there a few beads that had a few weird looking places in them. a picture of one weld wont really give us a idea of how good he is.

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post #4 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Disconnect the battery? Lol what for?

They looked pretty consistent I couldn't get any more pictures. They weren't extremely smooth when I ran my finger over them (the Weldporn page on Instagram looks like they are super smooth) Does it matter if these look more like "surface welds" instead of more penetrating welds? I wouldn't want my sliders to just rip off when I hit a rock
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post #5 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 01:36 PM
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if u dont disconnect the battery it may cause some electrical issues i always disconnect takes about 30 seconds cheap insurance haha. it looks like theres some penatration on the weld id say he will do just fine

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post #6 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 02:18 PM
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Yeah I think you'll be fine using him. Aint the prettiest bead but judging from the pic it looks to have good penetration. But take it with a grain of salt from me because I'm just a redneck with a mig and no formal welding schooling. Looks like some of my welding and I've never had an issue with my own work.
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post #7 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
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Ok good to hear, don't wanna shell out $300 for art welds (as much as I appreciate them but no one will see them being on the frame under the tub).. Thanks for the input guys, if anyone else can think of anything post it up!
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post #8 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 04:14 PM
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Those welds are on the cold side and with a mig he needs to be running up hill for a structural weld. If he has a decent machine ie miller 252 or bigger you will be fine if it's smaller you should have him do preheat on the frame to at least 250 degrees

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post #9 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 05:17 PM
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Those welds are on the cold side and with a mig he needs to be running up hill for a structural weld. If he has a decent machine ie miller 252 or bigger you will be fine if it's smaller you should have him do preheat on the frame to at least 250 degrees
i agree he should of started at the bottom run the weld up one side then started at the bottom and ran it up the otherside

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post #10 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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He seemed like a cool guy, he was working on his mustang for the drag strip so I'll make sure I ask him to do that from bottom to top and I'm sure he'll be fine with it.. What should I be expecting to pay? Around $200?
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post #11 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 08:41 PM
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Looks alot like TIG or cold pulse MIG.... will be fine for sliders

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post #12 of 31 Old 06-20-2015, 09:59 PM
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I would think 50-75 maybe 100 on the high side, I'd do it for free if you were local

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post #13 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 02:01 AM
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Both of those welds look like shit from someone who really doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. The sad part is it looks like a cage he welded on. I hope it was his cage and he doesn't end up killing somebody else.

The good:
*Looks like the steering wheel has been removed so at least it can't be driven.

The bad:
*It's not a weld, it's a string of tacks. In between each tack is a spot with little to no penetration.
*There is fuck all for a HAZ. The machine was too cold and being a string of tacks he got little heat into the metal and less penetration than just looking at the shitty weld.
*Up near the top of the top weld you can see it's convex and looks like cold lap. Again, machine was too cold because he didn't know what he was doing.
*It doesn't look like the tubes were cleaned(millscale removed).

Here's a couple pictures from a few years ago that shows what I mean about the string of tacks. I did the welding and posted the pics on another forum. This is 1.5"x .090"tube to 2x3x .125"tube, with a Miller 251 set up correctly.

[IMG][/IMG]

Here's the bottom side. You can see where each tack is and where it got fuck all for penetration.

[IMG][/IMG]

Some things you can get away with shitty welds on. Roll cages are not one of them. This is just a touchy subject to me (if you couldn't tell already) , I don't want to see people get hurt.

Can said welder weld on a set of sliders? Sure, let him go for it, he needs the practice. And nobody dies if a slider rips off.

There is nothing anywhere that says you have to MIG up hill. If your TIG welding sure, but not for MIG. CUP car cages are welded downhill MIG, and they're made to hit walls at 200mph. My entire full tube chassis, road racing '72Camaro was welded MIG down hill by me.

Here's something from Miller about welding tube.

Kevin
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post #14 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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$75 for the job sounds awesome, but i want this to be done once and forget about it, don't want my sliders to just come off when I land on a rock!

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Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
Both of those welds look like shit from someone who really doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. The sad part is it looks like a cage he welded on. I hope it was his cage and he doesn't end up killing somebody else.

The good:
*Looks like the steering wheel has been removed so at least it can't be driven.

The bad:
*It's not a weld, it's a string of tacks. In between each tack is a spot with little to no penetration.
*There is fuck all for a HAZ. The machine was too cold and being a string of tacks he got little heat into the metal and less penetration than just looking at the shitty weld.
*Up near the top of the top weld you can see it's convex and looks like cold lap. Again, machine was too cold because he didn't know what he was doing.
*It doesn't look like the tubes were cleaned(millscale removed).

Here's a couple pictures from a few years ago that shows what I mean about the string of tacks. I did the welding and posted the pics on another forum. This is 1.5"x .090"tube to 2x3x .125"tube, with a Miller 251 set up correctly.

[IMG][/IMG]

Here's the bottom side. You can see where each tack is and where it got fuck all for penetration.

[IMG][/IMG]

Some things you can get away with shitty welds on. Roll cages are not one of them. This is just a touchy subject to me (if you couldn't tell already) , I don't want to see people get hurt.

Can said welder weld on a set of sliders? Sure, let him go for it, he needs the practice. And nobody dies if a slider rips off.

There is nothing anywhere that says you have to MIG up hill. If your TIG welding sure, but not for MIG. CUP car cages are welded downhill MIG, and they're made to hit walls at 200mph. My entire full tube chassis, road racing '72Camaro was welded MIG down hill by me.

Here's something from Miller about welding tube.
Youtube Video

Kevin
Awesome Info Kevin I appreciate it! Just to ease your concerns, the picture I took was of the roll cage of HIS mustang lol

BigInBoca and I were talking about this before I posted the thread and he had brought up the same point of no penetration with the welds so I rather take it to someone who knows what they are doing and doesnt need practice (unless he does it for free, which he won't)

Luckily there's another place locally I can go to, I havent stopped by yet but they seem to have been doing this for longer, they do a lot mud boggers and trailer builds.. here are the two pictures of welds I found on their Facebook page:




Opinions? These do seem like better welds but I'm no expert and that's why I'm here...
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post #15 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 07:33 AM
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THE OP'S PICTURES ARE OF TIG WELDING NOT MIG WELDING.

All of you talking about "cold weld" and "string of tac's" and "shoulda gone uphill" obviously dont know WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You arent allowed per most rule books to MIG weld a cage, got to be TIG welded. Do people do it, yes, but its not allowed in most cases. You have to "qualify" the procedure which requires weld testing and lots of money. TIG welding is considered "qualified" from the get go. I understand NASCAR teams mig weld their cages and I am sure they spent the money to qualify the procedure and show NASCAR the results. Then they are required to MIG weld their cages using the exact settings set out in the qualification.

What I see in the OP's pictures doesnt look bad at all. His travel speed isnt all that smooth, but its hard to free hand TIG weld around tubes like that.

Would I have that guy do welding for me? Maybe if I saw more of his work.

The second set of pictures you posted from a different shop are MIG welds and they look pretty good. Just based off of those pictures I would lean towards that shop.

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post #16 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
*There is fuck all for a HAZ. The machine was too cold and being a string of tacks he got little heat into the metal and less penetration than just looking at the shitty weld.
When you run a TIG hot and fast you get little HAZ vs. low and slow.

Here is a GREAT video on machine amps and how much HAZ they create.
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post #17 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 07:45 AM Thread Starter
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THE OP'S PICTURES ARE OF TIG WELDING NOT MIG WELDING.

All of you talking about "cold weld" and "string of tac's" and "shoulda gone uphill" obviously dont know WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

You arent allowed per most rule books to MIG weld a cage, got to be TIG welded. Do people do it, yes, but its not allowed in most cases. You have to "qualify" the procedure which requires weld testing and lots of money. TIG welding is considered "qualified" from the get go. I understand NASCAR teams mig weld their cages and I am sure they spent the money to qualify the procedure and show NASCAR the results. Then they are required to MIG weld their cages using the exact settings set out in the qualification.

What I see in the OP's pictures doesnt look bad at all. His travel speed isnt all that smooth, but its hard to free hand TIG weld around tubes like that.

Would I have that guy do welding for me? Maybe if I saw more of his work.

The second set of pictures you posted from a different shop are MIG welds and they look pretty good. Just based off of those pictures I would lean towards that shop.
LMAO this cracked me up

thanks for the info I wasn't aware of those details! I'll be stopping by the second shop once I get the sliders in to have them give me a price. if it's around the $100 range I'll be going with them
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post #18 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MIURA View Post
LMAO this cracked me up

thanks for the info I wasn't aware of those details! I'll be stopping by the second shop once I get the sliders in to have them give me a price. if it's around the $100 range I'll be going with them
I will admit my blood pressure goes up when people are talking about and giving advice on stuff when its OBVIOUS they dont know what they are looking at. If you dont know, or arent sure, just say nothing.

What a lot of people dont understand about TIG welding is you dont even NEED filler metal. Almost ALL stainless pipe in a dairy or other food service environment is welded without filler. Its called autogenous. Its pretty strong in the right environment. I wouldnt use it(nor is it allowed in the rule books I dont think) in cages or something that needed a lot of strength, but with TIG welding you can do this. Its actually what you do when you are learning to TIG weld. You do a lot of welding and running "beads" with no filler just to focus on arc length, torch angle, travel speed, reading the puddle, etc... In your pics IMO his filler rod was a little thick or he dabbed to much in thats why the weld profile looks "like a series of tac's" even though its not. Those welds should have a flatter profile.

Im not the greatest TIG welder and have never welded fish mouthed cages like that, but I have messed around with welding tubes to flat plate just for practice and its tough. Most guys will weld 1/2 the tube then re position and weld the second half. Some only weld 1/4 and then re position. If you are good(I am not) you wont even be able to tell where the welder stopped and started. Lots of guys that weld tube in a shop environment use positioners and turn tables. They physically never move and let the work piece turn.
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post #19 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 12:41 PM Thread Starter
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I will admit my blood pressure goes up when people are talking about and giving advice on stuff when its OBVIOUS they dont know what they are looking at. If you dont know, or arent sure, just say nothing.

What a lot of people dont understand about TIG welding is you dont even NEED filler metal. Almost ALL stainless pipe in a dairy or other food service environment is welded without filler. Its called autogenous. Its pretty strong in the right environment. I wouldnt use it(nor is it allowed in the rule books I dont think) in cages or something that needed a lot of strength, but with TIG welding you can do this. Its actually what you do when you are learning to TIG weld. You do a lot of welding and running "beads" with no filler just to focus on arc length, torch angle, travel speed, reading the puddle, etc... In your pics IMO his filler rod was a little thick or he dabbed to much in thats why the weld profile looks "like a series of tac's" even though its not. Those welds should have a flatter profile.

Im not the greatest TIG welder and have never welded fish mouthed cages like that, but I have messed around with welding tubes to flat plate just for practice and its tough. Most guys will weld 1/2 the tube then re position and weld the second half. Some only weld 1/4 and then re position. If you are good(I am not) you wont even be able to tell where the welder stopped and started. Lots of guys that weld tube in a shop environment use positioners and turn tables. They physically never move and let the work piece turn.
That's understandable, and welding is such a controversial topic it always makes for interesting posts. I have no knowledge when it comes to this so I'm always down to learn. I'm not sure how long he has been welding for, but he was also working on a 350Z with a corvette engine and a 150 shot of nitrous, he was doing all the fabrication for that car.. I'm definitely gonna go with the second shop, they have a much bigger thing going and I've heard enough people mention them..

One day I want to learn how to weld so all that knowledge is gonna be useful! Maybe I'll get to the point where I don't need to reposition myself one day lol
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post #20 of 31 Old 06-21-2015, 05:45 PM
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I guess that would be me, Mr. rjacobs, whom you say doesn't know what the fuck their talking about. So, I guess I'll just have to scroll through your ignorant drivel and make some comments.............if ya don't mind. First, I guess I should qualify myself, Your Highness, as knowing a little bit about welding and having ran a couple beads. Many moons ago(just after high school) 35 years ago I worked in a offroad fab shop and learned how to weld, then moved up to the shipyards in San Diego (NASCO, Continental Maritime, Soustwest Marine and Pac Ship). In that time I ended up as a certified Journeyman Ship fitter/ welder, certified Pipe fitter/welder and Journeyman sheetmetal fabricator/welder. I was certified D1.1 unlimited for plate, pipe and box. Certified API 1104 for pipe up to 36'', stick and TIG. Certified ASME title IX boilers and pressure vessles, stick and TIG. By the time I left to get into Commercial Diving, I was the general foreman of the structural group that consisted of all three trades. I was in charge of every welder/fabricator and fitter and at times, that was thousands of people. In the Commercial Diving industry here in the gulf I once again got into welding, which was underwater SMAW and dry hyperbaric SMAW/TIG. I did testing for R&D on different flux compounds for the wet welding at different depths, qualified heat batches of TIG rods, WPS's, PQR's and WPQR's. Everything over a 1 atmosphere change in depth required a whole new set of quals. In addition to that I'm a level II NDT (MPI and UT) and certified B5.15:2010, which means I can shoot and interpret X-rays of welds. I also taught the welding school at work (topside, wet and hyperbaric) for years. So to say that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about I find rather funny. I've done welding jobs all over the world. Now days, I just build my own shit, correctly.

Quote:
THE OP'S PICTURES ARE OF TIG WELDING NOT MIG WELDING.
So, if the OP's picture is of TIG weld, the welder is worst than I thought. I'd really like to hear why you think this is so. Can you say with out a doubt that we're looking at 4130? Or would you think that there might be a better chance that it's 1020 DOM?

Quote:
All of you talking about "cold weld" and "string of tac's" and "shoulda gone uphill" obviously dont know WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
Again please enlighten me oh wise one. Is it the running too cold your happy with? Maybe it's the lack of penetration that gives you that warm fuzzy feeling? Or could it be that its not one continuous weld that gives you wood.
Those welds would not pass tech even if Helen Keller was running it.

Quote:
You arent allowed per most rule books to MIG weld a cage, got to be TIG welded. Do people do it, yes, but its not allowed in most cases.
Tell me what EXACT rule book you get this bullshit from. I want to here it from your mouth and see it for myself. Because it sure a fuck isn't in the NASA CLUB CODES AND REGULATIONS 2015.3 EDITION. https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...282/2015.3.pdf . And by the way, that would be Section 15.6 Roll cage, page 43. 15.6.15
Quote:
Welds: All welding must be of the highest quality with full penetration. All tubes must be welded 360-degrees around the circumference of the tube.
Notice nothing about TIG?

Lets try the SCCA GCR.
http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1434659329
Section 9.4 Rollcages. 9.4.G4
Quote:
It is recommended that all joints of the roll cage be welded. All welding must include full penetration, no cold lap, no surface porosity, no crater porosity, no cracks, no whiskers, and so forth. Welds shall be continuous around the entire tubular structure. Procedures for welding alloy steel shall be in accordance with accepted industry practice. It is recommended that a certified AWS D1.1 welder do all welding.
Again, not a fucking peep about TIG. They just say to use someone that knows what they're doing. This is for sportsman all the up to the big boys in GT1.

How bout NHRA? Have to be a member to get inside the entire rule book. But the 25.5 cage spec(for fast cars) says.
Quote:
All 4130 chromoly tube welding must be done by approved TIG heliarc process; mild steel welding must be done by
approved MIG wire feed or approved TIG heliarc process. Welding must be free of slag and porosity. Any grinding of welds prohibited.
The SCCA, NASA and NHRA don't fuck around with safety. Hell, NHRA won't even let you take a grinder to anything, they want to see what you did.

The BITD car/truck rule book. http://www.bitd.com/images/stories/p...CTRuleBook.pdf .
States in SCR 34.
Quote:
Rollcage construction material may be crew, dom, whr, wcr mild carbon steel or 4130 chromoly. 4130 chromoly is highly recommended for all rollcage construction. Stress relieve all welded intersections by flame annealing. All welds must be of high quality and craftsmanship with good penetration and with no undercutting of parent material. Oxy-acetylene brazing on rollcage is strictly forbidden.
Again not a peep about TIG only. They'll let you MIG 4130 even.

Lets try the King of the Hammers rule book, shall we?
http://ultra4racing.com/wp-content/u...4.1-wlogo1.pdf
Quote:
6.2.5.3 Roll cage main structure material may be CREW, DOM, WHR, or WCR mild carbon steel or 4130 chromoly alloy steel. All welds must be of high quality and craftsmanship with good penetration and with no undercutting of parent material.
Hey, guess what I didn't see....you guessed it...a requirement for only TIG welding. What I don't like, is that they don't require a one piece main hoop diag from the drivers top 'B" the pass bottom "B". Everyone else does, and for good reason. So pleas show me the rule book that says TIG is required.

Quote:
You have to "qualify" the procedure which requires weld testing and lots of money. TIG welding is considered "qualified" from the get go.
By your retarded logic, if I show up somewhere with a bad ass Miller Aerowave TIG machine under my arm, I'm qualified from the get go? Just think about what you said. Right now you should be feeling "not smart". Yes, they will qualify heat batches of filler and procedures in house. They are required BY NASCAR to MIG weld and use mild steel for roll cages. Mild steel has more give to it than 4130, it absorbs impact forces better.

Quote:
The second set of pictures you posted from a different shop are MIG welds and they look pretty good. Just based off of those pictures I would lean towards that shop.
The second set of pictures show the welder isn't smart enough to remove millscale before welding. The lever arm design of the mount is ....interesting. The welding does look better than the first pics though.

Quote:
What I see in the OP's pictures doesnt look bad at all. His travel speed isnt all that smooth, but its hard to free hand TIG weld around tubes like that.
Never heard of walking the cup have you? I didn't think so.

Quote:
I will admit my blood pressure goes up when people are talking about and giving advice on stuff when its OBVIOUS they dont know what they are looking at. If you dont know, or arent sure, just say nothing.
I couldn't agree more.

Quote:
What a lot of people dont understand about TIG welding is you dont even NEED filler metal. Almost ALL stainless pipe in a dairy or other food service environment is welded without filler. Its called autogenous.
I've done a shit ton of it. Only on fillets and only on stainless tables and benches used for food prep in galleys. It likes to crack because....well, there's no filler. I've also done it when tacking stainless sheetmetal together before finishing welding it.

Quote:
Im not the greatest TIG welder and have never welded fish mouthed cages like that, but I have messed around with welding tubes to flat plate just for practice and its tough. Most guys will weld 1/2 the tube then re position and weld the second half. Some only weld 1/4 and then re position. If you are good(I am not) you wont even be able to tell where the welder stopped and started. Lots of guys that weld tube in a shop environment use positioners and turn tables. They physically never move and let the work piece turn.
So your not really a welder and have never welded a cage and that makes you qualified to run your cock sucker on the internet. Nothing you said was correct and now you look like a dope.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
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post #21 of 31 Old 06-22-2015, 04:53 AM Thread Starter
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I guess that would be me, Mr. rjacobs, whom you say doesn't know what the fuck their talking about. So, I guess I'll just have to scroll through your ignorant drivel and make some comments.............if ya don't mind. First, I guess I should qualify myself, Your Highness, as knowing a little bit about welding and having ran a couple beads. Many moons ago(just after high school) 35 years ago I worked in a offroad fab shop and learned how to weld, then moved up to the shipyards in San Diego (NASCO, Continental Maritime, Soustwest Marine and Pac Ship). In that time I ended up as a certified Journeyman Ship fitter/ welder, certified Pipe fitter/welder and Journeyman sheetmetal fabricator/welder. I was certified D1.1 unlimited for plate, pipe and box. Certified API 1104 for pipe up to 36'', stick and TIG. Certified ASME title IX boilers and pressure vessles, stick and TIG. By the time I left to get into Commercial Diving, I was the general foreman of the structural group that consisted of all three trades. I was in charge of every welder/fabricator and fitter and at times, that was thousands of people. In the Commercial Diving industry here in the gulf I once again got into welding, which was underwater SMAW and dry hyperbaric SMAW/TIG. I did testing for R&D on different flux compounds for the wet welding at different depths, qualified heat batches of TIG rods, WPS's, PQR's and WPQR's. Everything over a 1 atmosphere change in depth required a whole new set of quals. In addition to that I'm a level II NDT (MPI and UT) and certified B5.15:2010, which means I can shoot and interpret X-rays of welds. I also taught the welding school at work (topside, wet and hyperbaric) for years. So to say that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about I find rather funny. I've done welding jobs all over the world. Now days, I just build my own shit, correctly.


...

Have a nice day,

Kevin
That is a very impressive resume Kevin, kudos to you Underwater welding has always blown my mind, watching youtube videos on it makes for a fun time.. I really don't know shit when it comes to welding so I have nothing to say regarding the rest, just wanted to say something about the resume lol

I'm just gonna sit back and follow though cause I'm learning a lot through this! thanks for the input Kevin
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post #22 of 31 Old 06-22-2015, 05:56 AM
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post #23 of 31 Old 06-22-2015, 08:36 AM
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i took 5 yrs of welding school so i guess i dont know what im talking about

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post #24 of 31 Old 06-22-2015, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by braindead0 View Post
Some folks are fine with being screwed over, perhaps finding confrontation to be more stressful than just living with whatever the problem is. These are excellent consumers, manufactured to the finest specifications.
Reformed Jeep addict... Jeepless for now.
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post #25 of 31 Old 06-22-2015, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
THE OP'S PICTURES ARE OF TIG WELDING NOT MIG WELDING.
Absolutely fucking not. And if they are then the guy needs to become an accountant or a truck driver.
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