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post #1 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 05:47 AM Thread Starter
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Computer Issues...

hey guys, I don't post often tend to keep to myself but always spend hours on here reading and learning and searching but am in need of some help if someone has been through the same issues before!!

This winter/spring I built up my 2012 jku Sahara with junk yard one tons

Rear:
2003 GM 14 bolt with 5.38s

Front:
2007 HP60 ford sueprduty with 5.38s

theres lots more like 3 link long arms oris, lockers steering rolling on 42" SX2 blah blah blah but that's not what my problem is haha


Problem is;

The stock JK uses 52 tooth tone rings for the abs last year my jeep ran stock axles built up with 5.13s and 37's and I used my pro cal to calibrate my speedo and shit (which for some reason this year will NOT work to reset to factory just get blinking red light on dash horn wont honk very stupid)

anyways...

The new setup is rocking factory ford sueprduty wheel bearing which are infact 60 tooth tone rings inside and I am running dodge ram abs sensors as they plug right into the ford bearings!

so to sum it up:

Last year 52 tooth tone rings with 5.13s and 37
this year 60 tooth tone rings with 5.38s and 42s
Old program from last year stuck in computer Procal will not allow me to change anything so its going in the garbage not impressed with their service.


The jeep is currently stuck in what I am guessing is a "limp mode"
jeep is an automatic 5 speed with trip tronic, currently the trip tronic will not work and the jeep is not shifting gears correctly it is like stuck in 2nd or 3rd doesn't want to shift from forward to reverse and shit...

Was thinking I can limp it to the dealer friend works there and he can wipe my computers and flash factory up to date software on the jeep quick and I bought a superchips programmer to teach it the new setup..

I do have a check engine light to go with this issue which is a freeze frame and will not allow me to remove it with my code reader at home and it is a P0731 "gear ratio error in 1st"


what I am failing to understand is how this error can come about? weather I put 49s or 31s on the jeep or 3.73 or 5.38 how can that put the jeep in limp mode? the jeep sees pulses from the abs sensors correct? those pulses then give the speedo a read out correct? so by changing the tire size and gear ratio the speedo will be off by a lot but the jeep should drive and shift fine correct?

Maybe I don't fully understand the abs system and someone can educate me further? I understand its now seeing 60 pulses per revolution instead of 52 pulses which will throw things off is this causing my limp mode??

How are some of the builds I rear guys are telling the computer they have 33s with 4.10 gears to get their speedo right and not going into limp mode??

I drove the jeep in limp mode with my gps on and my speedo is within 2mph to my gps but the jeep is in limp mode...

Also I should state I tied my back 2 abs sensors into my front two sensors as I have read many guys do this too...

starting to wonder are all these builds on old jks and on standard jks so no one has issues?

can anyone help? if you need more info to help diagnose just ask! I clearly need a better understanding of the system to trouble shoot and fix it.

thanks guys

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #2 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 08:16 AM
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First off, get sensors on the rear. Artec makes 60t tone rings to match your fronts. Doesnt matter that they are DIFFERENT from the 52t, not a big deal you just program tire size to make your speedo correct. Just because you have tricked the system into thinking you have sensors on the rear, doesnt mean its working correctly NOR is it safe in my opinion. The computer needs 4 independent sensors to control things correctly as it can and does pulse each brake separately.

Your code and limp mode(stuck in 3rd gear) has to do with not having the gear ratio programmed correctly. You need to set 5.38. Trust me, mine did this when my programmer(aeroforce) wouldnt work correctly. Showed 4.88, but the computer didnt take it, result was limp mode. Had to buy a pro-cal to get it going.

The pro-cal is not garbage.

BEFORE the pro-cal will let you program you need to clear ALL CODES. The pro-cal can do this(clear DTC codes). If it wont, get a GOOD scanner(not a $29 scanner), and CLEAR ALL THE CODES, even the ones stored in the history. Every code needs to be gone. Every programmer works this way. If there are current codes, no programming can take place.


Also, what rear locker did you go with? If its an auto locker you WILL have issues with the transmission.
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post #3 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 08:22 AM
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If I remember right, Pre 2012s only took readings from the tone rings so you could change gear ratios without having to program for it. Doing the same on 2012+ puts you in limp mode as it took readings at the tone rings and output shaft I believe.


I think you will have to program in a 6.20 gear ratio to get it happy. Could be way off on that bit though...


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post #4 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 08:32 AM
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Why not just pull the sensors, clear the codes, then go for a rip to see if thats the issue?

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post #5 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 09:06 AM
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I think you will have to program in a 6.20 gear ratio to get it happy. Could be way off on that bit though...
Somebody that has done the D60/14b swap will probably be in here, maybe, and say exactly what they did.

But my understanding is program the gear ratio to what it is, then for the speedo you end up having to change tire size to account for the difference in tooth count on the tone ring to get that happy. I think it was Stan who explained this.

I believe his issue is his gear ratio isnt set correctly in the ECU(he says old program stuck in computer because pro-cal wont program) which put him into limp mode. IF you dont clear EVERY code, the ECU wont take the programming no matter how many times you send it. He says the pro-cal is a piece of shit, but if the codes arent cleared(a battery pull wont clear them in this case) no programmer, including the dealer star scan(or whatever its called), will actually be able to program the ECU.

Like I said, I ran into the exact same scenario when my programmer(aeroforce) DIDNT set the correct gear ratio(it said it did, but it didnt). It got the tire diameter correct and my speedo was 100% correct, but it was still in limp mode. Got a pro-cal, cleared ALL DTC's with pro-cal as well as a several hundred dollar Snap-on scanner, set pro-cal for correct gear ratio and bam, everything was happy again.
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post #6 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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I have a good reader not a $20 one but not one capable of clearing this code its a freeze frame code, I have star scan coming to clear the codes so I can fix it

the procal is locked to my old setup from last year and wont let me change because of the code... so it is looking for 5.13s and 52 tooth ring which clearly is not there

I made my own rings for the back and had them hooked up but decided I want a mechanical locker so I re-pinned the computer to tie the backs to the front so I can run a grizzly or Detroit and not go into limp more that's my personal decision and opinion if you think that's not safe because it wont pulse each wheel that's fine I didn't ask for opinions on abs safety

talked to some more people while waiting for responses and came up with this

2012+ jks work like this

The diagnosis monitors actual gear position by checking the torque converter slip ratio calculated by Transmission Control Module (TCM) as follows:

Torque converter slip ratio = A x C/B

A: Output shaft revolution signal from revolution sensor

B: Engine speed signal from Engine Control Module (ECM)

C: Gear ratio determined as gear position which TCM supposes

If the actual gear position is higher than the position (1st) supposed by TCM, the slip ratio will be more than normal. In case the ratio exceeds the specified value, TCM judges this diagnosis malfunction.

So, with that considered, output shaft RPM and axle shaft RPM (wheel speed sensors) are NOT agreeing with each other. Add to that an amount of converter slippage which is different than anticipated which can also throw this code. All this is very likely because of the different tone ring tooth count.


So to further that the jeeps current TCM is looking for 52 tooth with 5.13 gears and a desired toque converter slip to drive which it did do just fine last year so the output sensor saw 5.13 revolutions per 52 pulses are the sensor

now with 5.38s and 60 tooth count the TCM is seeing a ratio which is way out of spec from the program that the Procal has locked in (due to the code being frozen)

there seems to be a few ways to overcome this issue:

1. Clear the codes with a "good" scanner.... and then reset the computer with the procal if it will allow me to unlock it then. Which at this point to procal is still useless because if I would need to "trick" the computer I would need to now tell the computer the rig is running 4.66 gears which is not an option with the basic procal

There is a formula for it you go 52/60*5.38= 4.66

this tricks the computer because of the difference in pulse counts but procal wont let you do 4.66 so it wont work need superchips programmer...

2. Clear the codes and reset the procal and then go deep into starscan and re program the computer to look for 60 pulses per revolution not the factory 52 pulses so that I don't have to trick the computer and then tell the computer it is using 5.38 gears as though everything is normal...

thanks for the help though guys

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #7 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 09:59 AM
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Did you swap out your radio since installing the ProCAL?

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post #8 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 10:26 AM
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Wheel speed sensors have ZERO to do with your gear ratio not being correct in the ECU. As you posted, its NOT looking at wheel speed sensor to determine if the setting is correct. Its monitoring gear position as it relates to output shaft speed and engine speed to determine if the setting is correct.

Get your codes fully cleared. IMO the pro-cal can do this with the DTC clear function(it worked on mine when I had the SAME code that the cheapy scanner I tried first wouldnt clear it). THEN program the correct gear ratio and see what happens after that. Until you can get the correct ratio programmed as starting point you are grasping at straws. IF you have a star scan being brought to you, you can use it to program gear ratio as well(I believe you can use it for 5.38 gears, but not 100% sure) and ditch the pro-cal.

You can unhook the speed sensors completely to take them out of the loop. You will have traction and stability control lights and maybe a CEL, but the jeep will still drive and shouldnt enter limp mode.
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post #9 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Did you swap out your radio since installing the ProCAL?
yeah I did change my radio actually to a 730N could that fawk with it??

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #10 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
Wheel speed sensors have ZERO to do with your gear ratio not being correct in the ECU. As you posted, its NOT looking at wheel speed sensor to determine if the setting is correct. Its monitoring gear position as it relates to output shaft speed and engine speed to determine if the setting is correct.

Get your codes fully cleared. IMO the pro-cal can do this with the DTC clear function(it worked on mine when I had the SAME code that the cheapy scanner I tried first wouldnt clear it). THEN program the correct gear ratio and see what happens after that. Until you can get the correct ratio programmed as starting point you are grasping at straws. IF you have a star scan being brought to you, you can use it to program gear ratio as well(I believe you can use it for 5.38 gears, but not 100% sure) and ditch the pro-cal.

You can unhook the speed sensors completely to take them out of the loop. You will have traction and stability control lights and maybe a CEL, but the jeep will still drive and shouldnt enter limp mode.


The problem I see it as though is there is a 14% increase is pulses being sent to the TCM from the wheel speed sensors...

going form 52 pulses per one revolution to the TCM up to 60 pulses per one revolution to the TCM is an increase of about 14%... in conjunction with the drive shaft turning a slightly larger amount from 5.13s to 5.38s its just out of spec so throws a code no??

your saying the tone rings don't have any affect on the tranny shifting? or am I reading what you posted wrong because I feel they have a huge effect on the tranny...

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #11 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian-Jku View Post
The problem I see it as though is there is a 14% increase is pulses being sent to the TCM from the wheel speed sensors...

going form 52 pulses per one revolution to the TCM up to 60 pulses per one revolution to the TCM is an increase of about 14%... in conjunction with the drive shaft turning a slightly larger amount from 5.13s to 5.38s its just out of spec so throws a code no??

your saying the tone rings don't have any affect on the tranny shifting? or am I reading what you posted wrong because I feel they have a huge effect on the tranny...
I dont believe the tone rings have a single thing to do with the gear ratio being incorrect in the ECU. I dont believe the wheel speed sensors send any data to the TCM. Maybe some kind of ancillary data, but nothing that would be causing this. From what I know of the wheel speed sensors they integrate with the ABS/TC/Stab control/speedo/odometer.

from what YOU posted, I assume from the factory service manual, the tone rings have ZERO to do with the trans.

TCM knows gear position
ECU monitors output shaft speed(trans)
ECU knows engine RPM

IF those things dont match up with what it thinks it should see from all of them, boom, code.

none of those things point to the wheel speed sensors though.

Like I said, unplug them, take them out of the loop, nothing bad will happen. You will STILL be in limp mode from the gear ratio incorrect code.

From what I understand when doing my research for my D60/14b build I am planning is that you take up the difference in tone ring tooth count by adjusting tire size until you get the speedo to match the GPS. The tone rings being off, until you correct for that, COULD cause stability control/TC issues.

Your current problem is the gear ratio is incorrect in the computer, it is sensing this, and throwing the code. Clear your code's fully, get the gear ratio programmed correctly and go from there. IF you still have issues AFTER you have verified the gear ratio programming is correct, take the next step after that.

Last edited by rjacobs; 06-17-2015 at 10:58 AM.
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post #12 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 12:09 PM Thread Starter
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now I understand what you are saying! thanks for explaining it differently

when I first put them in I had no sensors hooked up at all and the jeep wouldn't move any more then 1st gear and like 2kmh off rev limiter which was like 1500rpm assuming this was because all 4 abs sensors were unplugged it was interesting

I had:
abs
traction control
exclamation mark
and a few other lights on the dash all at once

im assuming it was just cutting all power for safety since it was getting no feedback

I know the front sensors control speedo and the rear sensors monitor the difference between front and back for traction control and cruise control

tonight I will clear all the codes that are present and use programmer to teach it that there are 5.38s in it now and see what happens

currently the speedo it bang on! up to 60kmh atleast... checked with my garmin gps last night so I guess the larger tires compensate for the difference and it worked out haha

thanks for the help ill see what happens tonight

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #13 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 12:19 PM Thread Starter
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TCM knows gear position
ECU monitors output shaft speed(trans)
ECU knows engine RPM

IF those things dont match up with what it thinks it should see from all of them, boom, code.

none of those things point to the wheel speed sensors though.



Wait a second another question!

how does it know if those things don't match up if it doesn't use the tone rings??

If TCM knows gear position, ECU knows shaft output speed and engine RPM, Where is the end of the loop feeding back?

does it not need the wheel sensor to tell it the difference on drive shaft speed to wheel speed to feed back to tell it that the gear ratio is wrong?

the way your explaining it would mean the tranny has no idea what gears you are running because it is only checking the drive shaft revolutions and doesn't care about the ratio to the tires...

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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post #14 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 01:10 PM
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yeah I did change my radio actually to a 730N could that fawk with it??
Yes, 100%. ProCAL looks for nodes in 9 sources, radio is one of them. Put the stock radio back in and retry the ProCAL. I don't know where the others are, but this solves one piece of one issue.

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post #15 of 16 Old 06-17-2015, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Yes, 100%. ProCAL looks for nodes in 9 sources, radio is one of them. Put the stock radio back in and retry the ProCAL. I don't know where the others are, but this solves one piece of one issue.
interesting!! thanks for the heads up

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post #16 of 16 Old 06-18-2015, 05:11 AM Thread Starter
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all fixed!

swapped stereo cleared codes plugged in aev pro cal reset to factory and ditched it

put 730N back in grabbed superchips tricked computer and said I am running 4.66 gears instead of 5.38s and it shifts and drives perfect.

just playing with tire size now to trick speedo into being correct.

and yes the speed sensor tone rings at each wheel do in fact feed info to the transmission and the speedo

only other way around it is to use starscan or drb software and get a smart buddy who knows his way around it and get down deep into the abs coding in the ecu for the jeep and switch the pulse counts from 52 to 60 and then you can tell it your actually running 5.38 gears but not many people know the software good enough to get that in depth and do it right! so most just trick it

thanks for the tips jeeps running mint now I would post a pic if I knew how haha

cheers

2012 JKU, shaved 14/SD60hp locked/spooled, 4 link Front 3 link rear, ORis all around, D3 all over, 42" SX2 tires, 20" Trail ready HD double beadlocks, PSC Full hydro
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