No luck bleeding brake... :( - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 17 Old 06-05-2015, 07:36 PM Thread Starter
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No luck bleeding brake... :(

I recently installed new braided brake lines and a new master cylinder on my 08 JKU. I know everyone says it has to go to the dealer to get the ABS unit bled. I am at that point where I am starting to believe this. Is there any alternative ways of bleeding the air out of the ABS/ESP module?

Thanks
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post #2 of 17 Old 06-05-2015, 07:50 PM
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did you bench bleed the MC before installing it? You should be able to bleed even ABS brakes with out cycling the ABS unit. Ensure you are bleeding the brakes with out the engine running and ensure all your connections are completely tightened to make sure no are is sucking in prior to the brake pedal being released unless you are pressure bleeding the brakes. Also never let the Master Cylinder get low on fluid while bleeding.
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post #3 of 17 Old 06-05-2015, 08:08 PM Thread Starter
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I would consider myself an experienced wrench so I know the to do's and not to do's pretty well. It it apparent that I have air trapped in the ABS module as it is the highest part of the system. I did bench bleed the MC and have ran over a gallon of fluid through the lines with no avail. I did double check all fittings for leaks as I have been in the situation where air was being sucked in at a loose connection. I have to say this is rather frustrating.
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post #4 of 17 Old 06-05-2015, 08:21 PM
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Conventional bleeding will remove air from the regular brake system components. If there is air in the ABS system, a way to cycle that part of the brake system is required.

ABS system bleeding requires conventional bleeding methods plus use of the DRB scan tool. The procedure involves performing a base brake bleeding, followed by use of the scan tool to cycle and bleed the HCU pump and solenoids. A second base brake bleeding procedure is then required to remove any air remaining in the system.

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post #5 of 17 Old 06-05-2015, 10:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronjenx View Post
Conventional bleeding will remove air from the regular brake system components. If there is air in the ABS system, a way to cycle that part of the brake system is required.

ABS system bleeding requires conventional bleeding methods plus use of the DRB scan tool. The procedure involves performing a base brake bleeding, followed by use of the scan tool to cycle and bleed the HCU pump and solenoids. A second base brake bleeding procedure is then required to remove any air remaining in the system.
It would be more accurate to say requires Wi-Tech or aftermarket scanner that supports the scan bleed procedure, which many do these days. Snap-On, Autel, and most quality scanners will scan bleed a JK, no need for a dealer.

I do agree the scan bleed is required in most cases where components are replaced, or the system is open for a while, brakes don't feel right if you don't.

I'm not a fan of the Redneck bleed by going down a dirt road and making a few abs stops

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post #6 of 17 Old 06-06-2015, 04:04 AM
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Swapped calipers on my 2007 rubicon all 4 corners and had no issues what so ever using my home made pressure bleeder. ( I am to cheap to lay out cash for a good bleeder).
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post #7 of 17 Old 06-06-2015, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspevacek View Post
Swapped calipers on my 2007 rubicon all 4 corners and had no issues what so ever using my home made pressure bleeder. ( I am to cheap to lay out cash for a good bleeder).
Which doesnt pertain to or help the OP's situation at all.

You had your brake system open from one side. He had his open from both sides which introduced a lot of air. Think of taking a straw and filling it with soda and pinching off one side, soda stays in the straw. Now open up that straw and all the soda runs out. Same principal at work here.

Needs a more drastic bleeding procedure when you open it up from both sides.
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post #8 of 17 Old 06-06-2015, 03:16 PM
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Which doesnt pertain to or help the OP's situation at all.

You had your brake system open from one side. He had his open from both sides which introduced a lot of air. Think of taking a straw and filling it with soda and pinching off one side, soda stays in the straw. Now open up that straw and all the soda runs out. Same principal at work here.

Needs a more drastic bleeding procedure when you open it up from both sides.
I swapped all 4 calipers on my jeep did them all at the same time had the jeep up in the air. A pressure bleeder will in fact push most of the air thru the system. The fact I had all 4 corners open at the same time would actually pertain to his situation.
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post #9 of 17 Old 06-06-2015, 07:17 PM Thread Starter
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To clarify, I had my system open for 6 months while I was waiting for parts to arrive. I am trying to finish my Hemi Swap/ RK 3.5 X factor lift. All mechanical and electrical work is done, just need to work out the bugs. IE bleed the brakes
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post #10 of 17 Old 06-07-2015, 05:42 PM
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No luck bleeding brake... :(

Try pressure bleeding the system in the conventional rotation (rr, lr, rf, lf). Pressurize the bleeder as high as it will go. You can't hurt the reservoir, it has a max of 150 psi. Keep at it and they will eventually firm up. The ABS motor/pump unit only has to be bled with the Starscan if you replace it.


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Last edited by SoK66; 06-07-2015 at 05:57 PM.
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post #11 of 17 Old 06-07-2015, 07:30 PM
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Double check your rear calipers, make sure the bleeders are on top, if seen them swapped making bleeding impossible.

Chrysler recommends a manual or pressure bleed anytime the brake system is open; and a scan bleed anytime it is suspected air has entered the HCU. Chrysler recommends 15-20psi bleed pressure, Id be nervous at 150psi.

I would suspect air in the HCU if the system were open for 6 months. I don't understand the resistance to a scan bleed, it takes about 4 minutes with two guys and you only need to open the passenger side bleeders.

We use clear hose on the bleeders when bleeding, and after a through base bleed we normally see some air exit on the scan bleed. I will say after driving gravity and heat cause the air to exit and the pedal feels better even without a scan bleed.

I've done over a hundred scan bleeds and I would say in most cases I feel an improvement in the pedal, not always. We have had some systems open for months and without a scan bleed the pedal is soft.

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post #12 of 17 Old 06-07-2015, 07:45 PM
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The reservoirs are marked "150 psi" max, etc. Factory pressure bleeds on the line at something like 100 psi. Rears area bugger to get fluid through at lower pressures. I can generally get them bled well at 25-30 psi with a home shop Motive pressure bleeder. As a precaution after a master cylinder swap I had the local dealer bleed them with the Starscan routine, no air in the system, no change at all in pedal feel.

Curious what scan tool you are using?

'09 JKRU. 4" Teraflex long arm, Teraflex R44 housing, Teraflex / Fox Resis, Poly Performance skids, Nemesis Billy Rockers, Nemesis flares, 37" ATZ P3s on 17" 5x5.5" Trailready HDs, Spyntec hubs, Teraflex BBK, Mopar BBK master/booster, Superior front & Alloy USA rear axle shafts, CTMs, Reids, Synergy drag link & tie rod, WTOR hydro-boosted steering, 5.38s, TF Dual Rate front bar, TF bumpers, Warn Powerplant, Tom Woods shafts, AA xfer case cable, Kilby canister relo, RH4x4 cage.
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post #13 of 17 Old 06-07-2015, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoK66 View Post
The reservoirs are marked "150 psi" max, etc. Factory pressure bleeds on the line at something like 100 psi. Rears area bugger to get fluid through at lower pressures. I can generally get them bled well at 25-30 psi with a home shop Motive pressure bleeder. As a precaution after a master cylinder swap I had the local dealer bleed them with the Starscan routine, no air in the system, no change at all in pedal feel.

Curious what scan tool you are using?
15-20 psi is what the service manual calls for, states "should be sufficient ", we use 25-30 psi.

I had a seal let go with a Wagner bleeder once on an iron master and fluid was everywhere. I find when bleeding there are two componants, time and pressure. I've had good luck gravity bleeding if you have the time which they don't on the assembly line.

I use various scanners, I like Wi-Tech when I have the time; I run all the factory tests and scan all the modules. It's rare to find a JK without a code somewhere, might be a radio or lighting code but there is usually one somewhere. I look closely for U codes in the SAS, ABS or other modules.

Problem with Wi-Tech is the time it takes to log in with Chrysler(Tech Authority) and the fact they can monitor everything you do.

I used a Solus and Varius for a while but it takes to long to configure, I hate that about Snap-On. The Ultra Pro we have works well and is touch screen. The Autoingenuity we have doesn't seem to bleed right.

By far my favorite scan tool now is our new Autel, Android touch screen and it mimics Chryslers Wi-Tech well. It is almost as fast as you can press the buttons, no need to log online and has autoscan which checks all the modules for codes and clear them in half the time of Wi-Tech.

The DRB, Starscan and Mobile are outdated and cannot work with the latest Chrysler vehicles. If you have a older vehicle the DRB or Starscan work well.

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post #14 of 17 Old 06-08-2015, 05:28 AM Thread Starter
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I am lucky enough to have a friend drop off his Solus/Snap On scanner....

I ran the ABS bleed function and did see an improvement in brake pressure. We did run out of time before we could finish manually bleed the rest of the system.

thanks for your input!
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post #15 of 17 Old 06-08-2015, 05:50 AM
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Hey Robbie - Carl T from Michigan here.

After wheeling the LS3 you guys installed in March I installed the Dynatrac ProGrip brakes. I also installed new calipers. Since then I've been unable to get a firm brake pedal feel. I've noticed a couple times that the rubber "plunger" on the bottom of the brake fluid cap was extended - indicating either a leak or air in the system. My brake fluid level is not dropping and I don't see any leaks so I suspect that after bleeding several times with no improvement that I have air in the ABS system.

I bled the system again yesterday with a helper pumping the brake. No air came out of bleeders yet when I started the Jeep I was able to push my foot to the floor and then pump up the pedal. Still feels mushy to me.

I'm going to take it to my local mechanic for a complete bleeding, including ABS this week.

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post #16 of 17 Old 06-08-2015, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tspevacek View Post
I swapped all 4 calipers on my jeep did them all at the same time had the jeep up in the air. A pressure bleeder will in fact push most of the air thru the system. The fact I had all 4 corners open at the same time would actually pertain to his situation.

If you don't let all the fluid drain from the reservoir there's no way air can get in the ABS unit. So, for example, when you're swapping in new flex lines if you do them one at a time and cap off the open hard line while you're working then the reservoir won't completely drain.

As I noted above, even when I installed a larger master cylinder the ABS unit didn't need to be bled. The spools sealed it off enough no air got in it.



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post #17 of 17 Old 06-09-2015, 02:27 PM
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Mechanic did a power flush/bleed, ABS bleed, followed by manual bleed and the brakes feel good and firm again.
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