Follow up to rear pinion seal leak and play in pinion. - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-15-2010, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Follow up to rear pinion seal leak and play in pinion.



Well crap. I finally got around to installing a new pinion seal and a new pinion nut--torqued to specs--and there still is a fair amount of play.

I am thinking that what must have happened was that I came down hard on the flange and damaged the outer bearings.

This is all virgin territory for me.

Any experienced members that can give me direction here?

The outer bearings are D below:





Is it time for me to take it to a mechanic along with an overhaul kit?


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post #2 of 24 Old 01-15-2010, 09:09 PM
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I do not know the answer to your question, but I did want to ask you what the driving symptom of this condition is, is it a clunking when applying throttle or something?

My rig clunks a fair bit and I've always wondered if it was due to DS play?

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post #3 of 24 Old 01-15-2010, 09:34 PM
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I have had something similar happen on my old XJ. The driveshaft was out of balance and threw the bearings on the pinion. Basically fixing it is like re-installing the gears. We just did my gears last week and they are not extremely simple. Nothing crazy, but if you dont have the proper pullers and peresses, it pretty much impossible.

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-15-2010, 09:54 PM
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Why buy the overhaul kit? The two bearings, seal and crush sleeve will run you about $75. The kits are way over priced. If you messed up the outer bearing you may have cracked the housing too.

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post #5 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 08:22 AM
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Please define play? If you are talking about rotational play, this is just gear slop and most likely fine. If you are talking about up/down-side/side play then this is not fine.

What's on the magnetic drain plug? If you've damaged the bearings you'd usually expect to find shavings on the plug.

Does it make any noise?
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broncojohn View Post
If you messed up the outer bearing you may have cracked the housing too.
Good point. Degrease the housing thoroughly and keep an eye out for any leaking fluid. Bad bearings will often cause enough play for fluid to get passed the seal, so it will be a good way to keep an eye out for that too.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 08:40 AM Thread Starter
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Up and down and side-to-side play.

I'll go pull the diff cover and magnetic drain plug to see what's there.

It didn't make noise when we were wheeling or loaded it on the trailer.


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post #8 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 09:19 AM
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[QUOTE=planman;317605]Up and down and side-to-side play.[/quote[Bad bearings I'd guess.

Quote:
I'll go pull the diff cover and magnetic drain plug to see what's there.

It didn't make noise when we were wheeling or loaded it on the trailer.
May not be much if you haven't driven it on the street much since it happened, but worth checking.
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 10:30 AM Thread Starter
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Some of these are a little blury. The ring teeth look good, but there are alot of shavings.

I have bearings left over from when AEV did my 5.13 gear install. I ordered overhaul kits, but their tech didn't use the bearings because I only had about 6k-7k miles on my JK at the time.

I'll pull out the boxes to see what I have and figure out what I will need.

Hopefully, the housing is not damaged. Jeepsareus has new rear Rubi JK housings for under $600 shipped.


Here are some pics:






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post #10 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 10:49 AM Thread Starter
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I have bearings and pinion seals left over from the overhaul kits. Prroblem is they aren't labeled front or rear. So I need help knowing which pinion seal is slightly larger. This will help me know which package is front or rear.

What else will I need? Should I just buy a rear install kit?
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 11:32 AM
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the rear pinion seal is larger along with the bearing and race.
I doubt you did this my coming down on the housing unless you hit the drive flange really hard, I have had the weight of my jeep on the rear drive flange and I dont have any leaks. My guess is knowing how too many techs are nowadays is that the tech had too much bearing preload so he backed off the pinion nut and didn't replace the crush sleeve. Without the proper torque the nut might have loosened and the drive flange backed off a little allowing the bearing to have room to destroy its self.


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post #12 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyguy View Post
My guess is knowing how too many techs are nowadays is that the tech had too much bearing preload so he backed off the pinion nut and didn't replace the crush sleeve. Without the proper torque the nut might have loosened and the drive flange backed off a little allowing the bearing to have room to destroy its self.
What he said. How many miles since the re-gear? My guess, the bearing failed due to installation error.

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyguy View Post
the rear pinion seal is larger along with the bearing and race.
I doubt you did this my coming down on the housing unless you hit the drive flange really hard, I have had the weight of my jeep on the rear drive flange and I dont have any leaks. My guess is knowing how too many techs are nowadays is that the tech had too much bearing preload so he backed off the pinion nut and didn't replace the crush sleeve. Without the proper torque the nut might have loosened and the drive flange backed off a little allowing the bearing to have room to destroy its self.
X2 on all points.

I've had a lot of weight on rear drive flange and the shaft and never had any issues.
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 12:43 PM
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Bearings & race for Pinion:

Inner M802048 & M802011 Works for front as well
Outer M88048 & M88010 Rear only

The numbers are the Same for Koyo and Timken

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This is exactly why we need to practice proper gun control.

If he was aiming down the sights correctly and had plenty of practice rounds under his belt, there would only be one side of this story.
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post #15 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 12:56 PM
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You can order a crush sleeve from a reputable drivetrain dealer. The new one out of my install kit measures 1.340 ID .623 height.

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This is exactly why we need to practice proper gun control.

If he was aiming down the sights correctly and had plenty of practice rounds under his belt, there would only be one side of this story.
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post #16 of 24 Old 01-16-2010, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys.

Today was our 4x4 club's Mod Day.

So, I showed our club members what I'm up against.

Fortunately, one of our brand new club members owned an offroad shop in Missoula. He moved here to buy an exhaust shop, but still does some custom fab work and builds. Also, he has done several JK Rubi gear installs. I was pleasantly surprised.

We are breaking for lunch. So, I am off to trailer my rig to his shop.

Very happy because I miss my jeep terribly. It has been parked since Thanksgiving weekend.

I'll post what he finds when he pulls things apart.

His concern that with play in the pinion it may have worn a poor pattern on the ring.


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post #17 of 24 Old 01-17-2010, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Report:

He pulled the carrier to inspect things. Then, he called me to tell me I need new gears because the little chunks/pieces of bearing have grooved most of the ring teeth.


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Last edited by planman; 01-17-2010 at 09:27 PM.
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-17-2010, 09:33 PM
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That sucks, so what was his opinion on what happened?


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post #19 of 24 Old 01-17-2010, 09:44 PM Thread Starter
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He hasn't said, but I look forward to asking.

I had about 8000 miles on the gears, with frequent fluid changes (with Royal Purple), long freeway drives, and some heavy offroading. AEV did the install in Missoula, MT.

From the posts here, it sounds like the pinion nut was either not properly torqued, or the installer went too far then backed off, or some other problem with the crush sleeve.

I researched and the pinion nut torque specs for a non-Rubi D44 are 160-200.

The torque specs for the Rubi D44 are 200-350.


I also decided to buy a Tom Woods rear driveshaft from Phil to install at the same time.


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post #20 of 24 Old 01-17-2010, 10:06 PM
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Forget pinion nut torque specs, what you want to look for is bearing preload, preload keeps the bearings from slopping around the housing.

Typical new bearing preload is 20-30 INCH pounds, this is the amount of torque needed to rotate the pinion as measured with a (duh) inch pound tq wrench, beam type... period

Used bearings preload typically 10-20 in lbs


When you think of the rear diff working, imagine the twisting (torque) forces acting upon everything back there... the tranny,trans case and diff MULTIPLY the tq going to the diff, this is why there is preload on both pinion and carrier bearings, now take these forces and then twist a 33,35,37,40" or whatever size tire. MASSIVE forces at work here, makes you wonder how the skinny rear axles don't snap more often.

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post #21 of 24 Old 01-18-2010, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ockgator View Post
Forget pinion nut torque specs, what you want to look for is bearing preload, preload keeps the bearings from slopping around the housing.
X2

Quote:
Typical new bearing preload is 20-30 INCH pounds, this is the amount of torque needed to rotate the pinion as measured with a (duh) inch pound tq wrench, beam type... period
X2 again. For new bearings the torque to rotate should be 20-40 in/lbs.
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post #22 of 24 Old 01-18-2010, 05:01 PM Thread Starter
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Will the source of the failure be easy to identify when my guy pulls everything apart?

AEV did the gear install. It is possible that if it was installer error, they may comp me at least partially.

I am looking at $300 for labor and $215 for parts to fix it. (Gears and an install kit only because I have the new bearings left over from the overhaul kit the AEV tech did not use.)

It wouldn't make sense for me to trailer it 350 miles to Missoula to their shop, spend the night, wait 1/2 day for them to fix it, then drive home 350 miles home to save the $515. I'd end up spending $300 on fuel and $100 on a hotel, and miss 1 1/2 days of work.


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post #23 of 24 Old 01-19-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Will the source of the failure be easy to identify when my guy pulls everything apart?
Usually yes, but proving it was some one elses fault is another thing.

Quote:
AEV did the gear install. It is possible that if it was installer error, they may comp me at least partially.
Usually an installer will put the job right if they admit it was their fault, but it's worth asking if they'll cover the cost.
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post #24 of 24 Old 01-19-2010, 06:23 PM
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With differentials its often hard to find out what went wrong first.

I'll bet you see damaged pinion bearings, and the end of the crush sleeve peened over from getting hammered.

Sometimes the crush sleeve crushes a little more with use (abuse), then the resulting play damages the bearings.

Sometimes the bearings wear (too much preload, water in oil, or just faulty) and this adds play that then hammers the crush sleeve.

Sometimes the pinion nut is reused and the nylock part of it fails, allowing it to come loose.

It is often a chicken or egg deal.

When I can I use a spacer and shims instead of a crush sleeve.

From here on out, check for play often and replace the crush sleeve as required. It will never be as simple as "tighten the nut" and move on.

*Disclaimer- I have been out of Jeeps for a few years but I build differentials for a spec racing type car. We have to use the stock diff and we know all about how to make them live because of that. YMMV
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