how does the JK traction control work?? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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how does the JK traction control work??

so i just realized that the traction control is still on while in 4 lo

im just wandering what the purpose of this thing is in 4 lo especially when i have my lockers engaged front and rear


what exactly does it do and how does it work???
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post #2 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 09:19 AM
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Traction control simply monitors for a slipping (spinning) wheel and when detected applies the brake to the slipping wheel.

When locked up, all wheels move at the same speed so no slip is detected and no brakes are applied.

You generally don't run trails locked up all the time, so it still serves a purpose, although it's no substitute for lockers, and I rarely ever see it working for me.

Similar manual techniques have been used for years, like BTM (Brake Throttle Modulation) where you use the brake with your left foot to reduce the amount of spin on wheels without traction. This is very effective with Torsen diffs as they lock up quite well using this technique.
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post #3 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 09:37 AM Thread Starter
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thanks Phil

i did see it working this weekend when i was reaking havoc on the 2 feet of snow on the ground

didnt really see a purpose, as i dont like the computer doing my work for me, i like to control what i can when i can, so im not a fan of the traction control

Last edited by jeepik; 12-22-2009 at 09:41 AM.
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post #4 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 10:57 AM
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With my 09 Rubi tracton conrtol is automatically off in 4 lo. You might have a problem if it's not off. Maybe someone with your year and model can post up.

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post #5 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 11:20 AM
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I have an 09 2 door, and in 4hi I can tell the traction control is messing with me. After I reach down and turn it off problem solved. In 4lo I have no problems with it trying to control what I do. So I do think it is off.
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post #6 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepik View Post
thanks Phil

i did see it working this weekend when i was reaking havoc on the 2 feet of snow on the ground

didnt really see a purpose, as i dont like the computer doing my work for me, i like to control what i can when i can, so im not a fan of the traction control
amen, ESP sucks.

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post #7 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 12:10 PM
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The ESP stays on while in 4hi. You can disable it by holding the ESP button down for 10 seconds I believe. If you reach speeds of 40 mph in 4hi it will turn itself back on. It is completely off when you switch to 4Lo.

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post #8 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Kickerman View Post
With my 09 Rubi tracton conrtol is automatically off in 4 lo. You might have a problem if it's not off. Maybe someone with your year and model can post up.
TCS as it applies to wheel slip (spin) remains on in 4Lo and cannot be turned off.

"4WD Low Range
ESP Off
This is the normal operating mode for ESP in 4WD low
range. Whenever the vehicle is started in 4WD low range,
or the transfer case (if equipped) is shifted from 4WD
high range or neutral to 4WD low range, the ESP system
will be in this mode. In 4WD low range, ESP and TCS,
except for the “limited slip” feature described in the TCS
section
, are turned off until the vehicle reaches a speed of
40 mph (48 km/h).

"This feature remains active even if TCS and ESP are in either the “Partial Off” or “Full Off” modes."
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post #9 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 01:19 PM
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PhilD is correct.. When I took my Libby to wheeling with other Libbies.. I had a first hand account of ESP at work.. The 04 Libby in front of me was spinning it tires going up a trail.. When it was my turn, I slipped some but then a slight jerk and I started to climb.. It is a nice feature..

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post #10 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 01:21 PM
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It still works on 4-lo, when the wheel with no traction spins a little it locks that wheel up to give the other wheel power. I like the way it works, so much so I rarely use my lockers.

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post #11 of 24 Old 12-22-2009, 08:27 PM
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mine in my 08 rubi works great. when i go drifting at the mall late at night i have to turn it off.

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post #12 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 05:59 AM
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The BLD (brake lock differential) feature does remain active in 4LO, and it can be beneficial compared to an open diff without it, however as stated it is not a replacement for lockers. When one tire loses traction, the BLD function senses this and applies the brake to that wheel, which will then (hopefully) surpass the torque threshold and transfer the power to the other wheel, which hopefully has traction and allows the Jeep to move forward. Issues with the system are that there is a delay for this to happen, and it seems to require a bit more gas pedal since the brakes are needed to be applied to the spinning wheel. Neither of these issues are a factor for a locker. Still a very good feature that is part of all JKs and helps them be a bit more capable.

Here is a more comprehensive look at it:

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?p=entry&id=270

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post #13 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 08:47 AM
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Snow and 2 wheel drive is when it works the most for me.
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post #14 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ Warrior View Post
amen, ESP sucks.

ESP itself is pretty awesome and can do things you don't even have the controls for. The ESP can brake just one wheel at a time to control yaw. You can't do that.


People are confusing "ESP-electronic stability program" with "Traction control". They are separate functions.

The traction control is used to operate the "brake lock differential" functions.

Has nothing to do with ESP.


I taught performance driving for many years and am really impressed with the ESP. If you hold a drift out with the steering angle matching what the computer expects to see with wheel speed and the yaw/rotation sensors it will let you do it. Meaning, that if "you have control of the drift" the ESP actually lets you do it all you want. Once the parameters fail to match, it takes back over.

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post #15 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtremjeepn View Post
ESP itself is pretty awesome and can do things you don't even have the controls for. The ESP can brake just one wheel at a time to control yaw. You can't do that.


People are confusing "ESP-electronic stability program" with "Traction control". They are separate functions.

The traction control is used to operate the "brake lock differential" functions.

Has nothing to do with ESP.


I taught performance driving for many years and am really impressed with the ESP. If you hold a drift out with the steering angle matching what the computer expects to see with wheel speed and the yaw/rotation sensors it will let you do it. Meaning, that if "you have control of the drift" the ESP actually lets you do it all you want. Once the parameters fail to match, it takes back over.
I can understand the feature and won't argue that it can do things that I can't. I will however argue that I find myself to be much more capable of controlling the vehicle than the ECU is, and I'd much prefer to decide myself when brakes should be applied and engine power should be cut.

I work in rally racing, so I enjoy my sideways fun more than the average guy. I can confidently say that if my WJ had Traction Control/ESP and acted like the JK's do, then it'd be me in the ravines and ditches instead of the race teams.



When you try to just leisurely drive around a looped freeway ramp at a more than reasonable speed and it starts randomly cutting engine power and grabbing brakes one corner at a time, nearly running you off the road, then its nothing more than a tedious problem. I've had 4 JK's now, all with perfectly centered steering wheels and some with recalibrated speedo's and they've all done it.

The difference there is of course they've all had 35" and larger tires and I just don't think that system works well under those conditions, and with those tire sizes being very common on these Jeeps, it ought to.

When I step on the throttle, I'm doing it for a reason...I don't want some computer deciding for me if it should actually do what I tell it to do. I can understand its usefulness for other people.

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post #16 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ Warrior View Post
When you try to just leisurely drive around a looped freeway ramp at a more than reasonable speed and it starts randomly cutting engine power and grabbing brakes one corner at a time, nearly running you off the road, then its nothing more than a tedious problem. I've had 4 JK's now, all with perfectly centered steering wheels and some with recalibrated speedo's and they've all done it.

The difference there is of course they've all had 35" and larger tires and I just don't think that system works well under those conditions, and with those tire sizes being very common on these Jeeps, it ought to.

.

I had all the same issues until my AEV suspension.(had 35s and 3.5" lift before) You can RAIL this thing around without the ESP prematurely stepping in now. Until I had this set up I thought the ESP was JUNK. I think a lot of the suspensions out there are not playing well with the ESP sensors. Too much body roll, steering angle irregularities due to steering set ups etc.


The jeep is looking for a magical combo between yaw/rotation, wheel speed and the steering angle. If those parameters are messed up it will prematurely set off the ESP.

Some of the suspensions out there may trigger it for 1 or all three of the reasons. Too much body roll will screw with the yaw sensor. A steering linkage set up that changes the exact ratios will screw with the steering sensor, no matter if you are straight at a dead stop. (If it is looking for a 60 degree turn, but your new lifted steering set up gives 62 degrees mid corner the steering sensor is going to trigger it). ...and then obviously the wheel speed relative to all of those other sensors. It is not as simple as everyone wants to make it with just setting the steering wheel straight.

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post #17 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xtremjeepn View Post
I had all the same issues until my AEV suspension.(had 35s and 3.5" lift before) You can RAIL this thing around without the ESP prematurely stepping in now. Until I had this set up I thought the ESP was JUNK. I think a lot of the suspensions out there are not playing well with the ESP sensors. Too much body roll, steering angle irregularities due to steering set ups etc.


The jeep is looking for a magical combo between yaw/rotation, wheel speed and the steering angle. If those parameters are messed up it will prematurely set off the ESP.

Some of the suspensions out there may trigger it for 1 or all three of the reasons. Too much body roll will screw with the yaw sensor. A steering linkage set up that changes the exact ratios will screw with the steering sensor, no matter if you are straight at a dead stop. (If it is looking for a 60 degree turn, but your new lifted steering set up gives 62 degrees mid corner the steering sensor is going to trigger it). ...and then obviously the wheel speed relative to all of those other sensors. It is not as simple as everyone wants to make it with just setting the steering wheel straight.
That makes sense. I still think the most proficient answer is to give me a simple option to permanently eliminate it.

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post #18 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ Warrior View Post
That makes sense. I still think the most proficient answer is to give me a simple option to permanently eliminate it.
For certain uses I think this is fine. I have taught performance driving at the professional level from beginners to Indy car and can tell you that a properly working system is better than 99% of the people that "think" they can drive.

One issue I see is that insurance companies base their rates off you having the systems like ESP. So if they find it disabled and have an accident your contract may be voidable.

__________
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post #19 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 10:44 AM
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My esp almost spun me out getting on the highway when it actually rained here a couple weeks ago. It pitched the jeep completely sideways at 20 mph...which was just awesome.

What pisses me off about it is that if I go 40 on that on that ramp it never goes off... I go 20-25 and it goes off. I've also noticed that if I run with 25lbs of air in the tires it goes off a lot less than it does with 32 pounds in the tires on that particular on ramp. The stupid ESP only seems to go off on ramps that are like that, a downhill sharp right hand corner. I can drive up the mountain through the twisties and drive as fast as I want and the fawking thing never goes off.

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post #20 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDMF View Post
..... The stupid ESP only seems to go off on ramps that are like that, a downhill sharp right hand corner. ....

When I had my previous suspension I had a constant issue with a downhill, decreasing left hand corner here in Denver, CO. (on ramp from w. Colfax to S. I25 for anyone that cares). (Jeep was on 35s, AEV Procal, Wheel dead center, etc)

I happen to have AEV here when my suspension was installed and told them about the corner. They claimed that I should not have an issue with it and wanted to go see it in person. So I took Jim Frens down to the corner in my now AEV suspended Jeep. We railed the corner several times trying to get the ESP to prematurely come one and NOTHING.

There was something about the other set up that triggered the ESP prematurely when presented with that corner. Funky dynamics in the yaw sensor vs steering angle is my speculation.

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post #21 of 24 Old 12-23-2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason @ Warrior View Post
The difference there is of course they've all had 35" and larger tires and I just don't think that system works well under those conditions, and with those tire sizes being very common on these Jeeps, it ought to.
I've ran 36, 37 and 40" tires on my JK for close on 80k miles and I can only recall ESP/BAS activating once, and that was when I lost traction going around a wet corner.
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post #22 of 24 Old 12-24-2009, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by SDMF View Post
My esp almost spun me out getting on the highway when it actually rained here a couple weeks ago. It pitched the jeep completely sideways at 20 mph...which was just awesome.

What pisses me off about it is that if I go 40 on that on that ramp it never goes off... I go 20-25 and it goes off. I've also noticed that if I run with 25lbs of air in the tires it goes off a lot less than it does with 32 pounds in the tires on that particular on ramp. The stupid ESP only seems to go off on ramps that are like that, a downhill sharp right hand corner. I can drive up the mountain through the twisties and drive as fast as I want and the fawking thing never goes off.
Same here: sweeping right onramp down and banked kicks on the ESP. This started happening after I went from 35s to 37s and did a drag link flip with a Poly Performance track bar axle bracket.

With the 35s, the drop pitman, and FT drop track bar mount, it didn't do this.

The drag link flip and track bar changes have the two rods perfectly aligned and on the same plane....I have NO bump steer and the Jeep, otherwise, handles like a dream.

I really don't quite understand why it does this now when it didn't before. My only thought is to adjust the steering so that the steering wheel is about 5 degrees right of where it is now. Even though it appears centered, maybe it's off just a little. I am curious to see if this will help or make it worse. I'm thinking to try this because the Jeep never kicks the ESP going on a left clover leaf--only a right one....

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post #23 of 24 Old 12-24-2009, 12:01 PM
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Mine kicks in on any loop on/off ramp, and on the twisty's in the mountains. Everything is set perfect.

Phil, you said you drive like an old man!

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post #24 of 24 Old 12-24-2009, 12:05 PM
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Phil, you said you drive like an old man!
Miss Daisy I do generally, but I occasionally try to run over the guy walking with the flag in front of me
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