Gears are driving me nuts - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Gears are driving me nuts

So I just put in a new set of G2 front and rear gears among the other list of things so I was expecting to chase down vibrations and such from the driveshafts, engine etc. I took it into a good 4x4 shop here in town today for an alignment and got the owner to do a test drive to see if he could pinpoint where it was coming from. Had the front D/S off and the rear pinion was dead on but still getting a drone....heavy at high speed. Thought maybe tires out of balance but it's been in the air up on the lift since parked so I didn't think so.

We got it up on the lift and ran it while he was down below with a stethoscope, it was coming from the rear axle. I got him to open it up where he ran a test pattern and measured my backlash. Wear pattern was bang on and backlash was about 7 thousandths. The oil was grey and gritty and when you looked closely at the teeth they both said it looks like it was chattering. I had all new bearings, shims, crush sleeve....everything. I even bought an expensive dial indicator torque wrench for pinion preload. New axles and axle bearings, new ARB locker everything new. Bearing caps photographed and put back on the same, good preload.

I'm stumped???? Ordered a new set of Yukon's and bearings for another install but I cannot figure out what went wrong. They figure a bad gear set, anyone else run into that before?? I guess I should be happy it wasn't in the engine. I'm pretty sure he's not trying to rip me off cause every time I go in to buy something he talks me out of spending more money lol.

Any ideas???

Thanks,
Sean

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post #2 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 06:11 PM
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IMO, I'd pull the rear driveshaft and run off the front axle for a testing period. It won't blow up or grenade if you turn reasonably...but it'd give you a little more data to run with.

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post #3 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Yea, that's my plan for tomorrow, way to frustrated today to go any further.
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post #4 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 08:29 PM
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did you test backlash across the whole gear or just one section of it? it might be .007 on one side and be .011 on the other. you need to gauge it across the board

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post #5 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 08:29 PM
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I had a local shop do a gearing change a year ago with Yukon 5.38s. Changed the gear oil in both axles at 500 miles, and the rear at 1000 and just recently 7,000 miles since the swap. Oil (Valvoline synthetic 75-140) came out very black and there was quite a bit of muck on the magnet. It has a faint vibe at around 48 mph - 50 mph that isn't driveshaft related, I've tried two different driveshafts. A guess is that it may have a deteriorating pinion bearing, but it really makes no R&P or bearing related sounds. Stumps me, so I'll be interested in reading what you find.
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post #6 of 21 Old 11-14-2013, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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I checked backlash 3 times and run-out on it, I was very slow and meticulous when I did it. I'm thinking maybe a carrier bearing is eating itself up or maybe an axle bearing. I noticed my one axle seal is leaking, new and RTV'd as well. I picked up new bearings for the ARB today, I'll swap D/S's and take it for a test drive before I tear into it AGAIN. I even cross referenced all my torque settings from my manual to the internet.

I'll take pictures.

Sean
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post #7 of 21 Old 11-15-2013, 07:07 AM
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I just did gears recently and messed up the crush sleeve the first time I was torquing it down. If you don't get that right on, it could be causing problems in your pinion bearings. I was lucky the overhaul kit came with 2 crush sleeves.

Also make sure you are using the right running torque(drag) for the bearings you are using, it if a different number for new bearings, vs used bearings.
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post #8 of 21 Old 11-15-2013, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input, I'm trying to come up with a cure for this and not just throw money at.


I was sure everything was set correct. Drove around today without the rear D/S and the rear was running smooth and the vibrations were back into the steering wheel. Called the guys who built my shafts and told them, they said they might get to it sometime next week.....nice. I took them over to Standens and they are going to check and balance them for me, and if needed they said they can run my jeep on the rack and pinpoint the problems.

If the original guys never balanced them I'm going to loose my $hit. Set of gears cooked, now my axle seal is leaking, and my T-case is making funny noises....not happy right now.

Sean
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post #9 of 21 Old 11-15-2013, 05:07 PM
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Did anybody check the pinion bearing preload? If that is our of spec you will get a bunch of noise at all speeds. It can also cause the pinion to walk around causing the odd wear that you were talking about and it will wear the bearing prematurely. Give us a call and we can go over the specs with you to make sure this does not happen again.


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post #10 of 21 Old 11-15-2013, 07:10 PM Thread Starter
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I had it preloaded for a rotational force of 20-30 inch pounds I think, that was pinion only, no carrier and a bloody expensive dial torque wrench. I'm seriously convinced it's the driveshafts but won't get em back until Monday. I may call you, thanks for the offer.

Sean
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post #11 of 21 Old 11-15-2013, 10:30 PM
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Q1, Was the regear same ratio or different? If different you changed the DS speed. Q2, Do you have adjustable trailing arms? If so you can change pinion angle and see if vibes go away, all it takes is a turn or so either way.

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post #12 of 21 Old 11-16-2013, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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I went from 4:10 to 4:88 so yea it would change, not sure what that would do, can you explain pls. I tried the rear pinion from 2 degrees below to 1 degree above and went back to straight on with the D/S, none of which made any difference but I figure with a D-cardan I should be in line, might be 1 degree below.

They didn't mention anything about gearing when they built it, curious what that means???

Thanks,
Sean
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post #13 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Got my drive shafts back today, took them to a different shop than the ones who built them so I could get an honest answer. Here's what they said:

Rear was out of balance by 54 grams on CV end 17 grams on slip end.
Front was in fact out of phase and had excess runout and balance. 56 grams on CV end and 39 grams on slip end.

His words were "that's enough to rattle your fillings out"

So $250 for new ring and pinion, $280 for new install kit, $270 for Driveshaft work, new axle seals and bearings $150 +-, $120 new ARB carrier bearings, plus a quote for about $1000 for labor. I haven't even looked into my T-case yet. Gonna try out the shafts before I tear into the axle and diff and see what difference they make then I get to install another ring and pinion.....YAY (sarcasm).

I think I'm gonna cal P*** driveline and see what they have to say, same company that gave me the wrong front pinion bearing before. I really doubt they'll help out.....we'll see.

Sean
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post #14 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 03:37 PM Thread Starter
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Got them back on and zero vibrations, who would think someone could get custom built drive shafts that were supposed to be checked and balanced for only $1500 and have them actually done right......

Now to fix all the damage caused by this.

Sean
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post #15 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 05:16 PM
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I've had three different sets of gears and two different ratios, stock and aftermarket shafts, different angles etc. in mine and still have vibes in mine. I gave up. Thousands of miles later and a trip to Moab and back and it hasn't grenaded itself. It's just kind of annoying some times.

I gave up! Maybe one day it will show it's ugly head until then screw it!
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post #16 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 06:37 PM
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Having done quite a few gear sets in my time, I can tell you with good education that yes, even when everything is dialed in, you can still get a "tone" at different speeds, just nature of the beast at times. I do know that Yukon gears are good to go with, I myself wouldnt go other than Yukon or Precision.

As far as driveline vibes, in my experience, those pesky driveshafts are 99% of the time the culprits. After that is T-case, and then axle problems (but typically if you have vibes from an axle, you have or are going to have BIG problems).

Im sorry to hear all these problems with your rig, I hope it all works out for the best. Just empty every pocket, right?
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post #17 of 21 Old 11-18-2013, 08:52 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, I think the test drive I did today before pulling it all apart reminded me it's a worthwhile hobby. I enjoy working on it but this gearing thing is getting old fast, this will be my 5th axle in the last couple of months. It's cost me a couple thousand in parts but I was quoted by the three 4x4 shops in town $3000 for a gear swap. This way was more work but now I think I have a good handle on what I'm doing, no better way to learn other than getting paid for it.

Sean
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post #18 of 21 Old 11-19-2013, 09:09 PM
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Good to hear you found your problem.

I asked about ratio swap because such change will alter driveline rpm, sometimes leading pieces to reach a frequency that will make noises or vibrate.

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post #19 of 21 Old 11-22-2013, 05:31 PM Thread Starter
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Got the new Yukon's in today, all new bearings and seals, new axle bearings, seals took it for a test drive and no leaks so far and best of all no vibrations. Also had to put a new output shaft seal in the t-case and decided on a new chain while I had it out. No more leaks out of that yet either.

I was reading through the Yukon gear installation instructions and found they say for a dana 44 JK to torque the ring gear bolts to 135 ft/lbs.......no way. I found 65 for 7/16" bolts and 80 for the 1/2" bolts. Then they have a regular Dana 44 at 55. Think they have to redo those or am I missing something???


Sean
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post #20 of 21 Old 11-24-2013, 04:46 PM
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torques does go by bolt size.
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post #21 of 21 Old 11-24-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgo70 View Post
Got the new Yukon's in today, all new bearings and seals, new axle bearings, seals took it for a test drive and no leaks so far and best of all no vibrations. Also had to put a new output shaft seal in the t-case and decided on a new chain while I had it out. No more leaks out of that yet either.

I was reading through the Yukon gear installation instructions and found they say for a dana 44 JK to torque the ring gear bolts to 135 ft/lbs.......no way. I found 65 for 7/16" bolts and 80 for the 1/2" bolts. Then they have a regular Dana 44 at 55. Think they have to redo those or am I missing something???


Sean
At this point, I don't think you should be second guessing the book. If you did 65, I would absolutely go revisit that. I have fixed ring gear bolts that have come out before [from whomever not using loctite]



Mine are usually done via 1/2" impact, as does just about every shop on the planet. Cross 'em snug, hit 'em and mark the done bolts. Away it goes. Don't forget the red loctite.

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Last edited by Goodysgotacuda; 11-24-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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