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post #1 of 271 Old 11-10-2013, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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LS Swap Questions

I figured I'd start a new thread for questions about the LS swaps instead of highjacking someone else's or phoning Robbie everytime a question comes to mind. I figured between us we've probably run into the same problems or questions. Any questions or ideas are fine.

I was wondering about the EFI live tuner. So I can turn off the AFM with it, that's good, I'm trying to narrow down some vibration and I've done so much to my Jeep I don't know if I should start looking at driveline or engine.

Also, there isn't a reasonably priced tuner out there that could do both GM and Jeep systems is there? I have a superchips flasher and an Aeroforce gauge but I was thinking about something that could help bleed the ABS sensor as well as turn off AFM, anything out there.

Thanks,
Sean
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post #2 of 271 Old 11-10-2013, 04:00 PM
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The most popular GM tuning tools are EFI Live and HP Tuners. Either will give you full control of engine performance including AFM control.

HP Tuners has an easier interface to work with but EFI Live is more powerful in my opinion. They both come with scanners which support about all the pids and functional tests you will ever need. HP Tuners has been working on supporting Chrysler vehicles but it has been years and the JK is not supported.

Fact is unlike GM, Chrysler tuning is a PITA and scarce. We are a CMR dealer and what is available pales in comparison to GM tuning. Chrysler tuning is complex and difficult to work with.

Best bet is buy a Chrysler scanner like an early used Solus, Auto Ingenuity or whatever meets your budget. Most are capable of abs bleeding and more.

My advice with vibrations is narrow it down. Is is speed or rpm related? Get it in the vibration zone and put it in neutral, does it change? If it's always at the same speed it's probably driveline. Under a load it is usually drive shafts or driveshaft angles. Are your pinion angles correct, U-joints good? Remove one driveshaft at a time and see the effect.

The 5.3 is extremely smooth with hydraulic mounts unless it is in afm.

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post #3 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks Robbie, you've mentioned a lot of things to me over the phone and I can never remember it all, this helps when I can see it. I think I'll order the EFI sounds like that's the favorite.

I was almost positive it was the AFM because it's not the same as anything I've felt before. I tried shifting ti L2 and neutral to see if it goes away and it seems to. I have the 3" exhaust, Magnaflow cats to AFE rear, I think I read that magnifies it some. I'll see when I get my scanner, but I did throw the 171,174 codes again so it's back to searching for another vacuum leak. I checked as much as I could such as exhaust manifolds and gaskets, intake, valve covers, pcv lines, brake booster...etc, I may need to smoke it out. I found one pinhole and that brought my fuel trims way down so it made me realize just how small a leak I'm looking for.

Gotta figure out how to test fuel pressure as well. I will say this thing sure goes now, makes my F150 Triton feel like a pig.

Sean
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post #4 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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One more thing, idle is at 600 rpm, does that sound a little low?

Thanks,
Sean
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post #5 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 10:54 AM Thread Starter
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Just wondering if you guys used this brake booster connection and I also noticed the other thing on top of the air intake with no connection, any idea what it is and if that could be the cause of the vacuum leak?

Tried spraying around the engine but no response.

Thanks,
Sean
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post #6 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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Plugged the hole on the intake manifold, it was a strong vacuum that was hidden under my heater hose. Idle is up to 700 rpm and comes back down much quicker when revved. Hope that was it, going for a test run.

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post #7 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 05:50 PM
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no idea what the sensor to your brake booster is, don't have one on my jeep.
And that nipple on my intake is sealed. If you read on my swap I had a intake leak also and found that my oring to the master cylinder became missing when I took the body off. way to fiqure that out is run the car turn off then let sit a minute and pull out the valve that goes to it if there still is vacuum present your seal is good if not replace it
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post #8 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
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Rob told me about that one, I never removed my m/c, I disconnected all my lines and removed them for welding. Test run went good, I can't keep my foot off the gas, I still think it's the AFM I'm feeling now although I do have some driveline vibrations also. Spent a couple of hours trying to get seized up control arm adjusters loose. Not fun at all.

Had to little problems I found now, windsheild washer lines are hooked up backwards. I could hear the pump but nothing was coming out in the front, it was shooting the back window. Also got the ABS ESP indications and a code showing a bad speed sensor. Couple of easy fixes.

I think besides the vacuum leaks all my other problems have been self induced and not related to the swap.

DWN, I was asking if you had pictures of your airbox in your build thread, do you have any available??

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Sean
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post #9 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 08:56 PM
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That first picture is of a Brake Booster Pressure Sensor. I have not seen it used on a 3.8 JK in the States. It is used by all Pentstars because the small displacement engine revving high in heavy vehicle causes you to lose power brake assist. The computer uses it to change engine parameters to maintain sufficient vacuum and in the Pentstar fires up the electric vacuum pump to assist braking. Some Superchargers have this issue when in boost, they lose brake assist after a short time. My guess is they put it in there to act as a check valve but did not make it functional in the 3.8 JK. We don't need electric vacuum assist with the V8 since they produce a lot of vacuum.

The second picture shows a port that is sometimes used by some chassis that need vacuum to run accessories like HVAC servos. Most of the vehicles have gone with electric servos and the days of the vacuum drive is almost over. In most engines that port is sealed. Some engines also run a Baro sensor below the MAP sensor for better altitude control.

The Gen IV engines idle very low, the 6.2 SUV engine will idle down to 525 rpm when warm. Most 5.3's idle between 575-650 depending on temp, gear selected, vehicle speed etc. I like to bump the idle up a little especially for crawling. I think the low idle reduces emissions and uses less fuel.

The LS engine uses a very sophisticated OS that is airflow dependent. A MAF sensor is used along with the MAP sensor for extremely fast and precise fuel control. From 10 seconds after start up your LS can be in closed loop. Using actual airflow vs calculated airflow like Chrysler does is much better on the street in my opinion. Race cars and vehicles that don't care about drivability use a MAP sensor only and run in a speed density mode. The LS can run in a speed density mode if chosen but on the street or off road the MAF will run more stable.

The trade off is everything must be perfect, the MAF can pick up the smallest of vacuum leaks. A bad seal on the oil filler cap or dipstick tube will be caught by the MAF. I just had a customer dyno tune his 6.2 JK for performance. The vehicle is going to Mexico so emissions doesn't matter where it is registered. It is putting out over 400 hp at the rear wheels and has no rear O2's, MAF sensor, long term fuel trims, etc. It is a blast to drive, uses a little more fuel and doesn't have the stable feel of a MAF vehicle, especially after a cold start. Once you get the MAF dialed in and all the leaks fixed the MAF OS is the best set up for the street IMO.

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post #10 of 271 Old 11-11-2013, 10:30 PM
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Robbie you should have been awarded the MAN OF THE EVENT Sema 2013.

Now can we use ALL LS Accessories truck PS Pump, Alternator, Pulleys Etc ? I am thinking of supercharging the 6.2 LS and avoid brackets?
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post #11 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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On mine it looks like the A/C pump would hit the upper control arm if it was the stock location.

I was just wondering, went out driving around all over today and my Jeep "average eco" on the dash says I'm burning 7.2 liters/100kms as opposed to my 3.8 was averaging 15 L/100kms. That can't be right is it. I did go 140kms on about 1/4 tank of gas though........I'll do the math I guess.

Ordered EFI live today, I have no clue how to use it so I'll be asking even more questions now.

Sean
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post #12 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 04:46 PM
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Ill get some pictures of the air box when I go and adjust my crank sensor again. Right now im down with 3 wizdom teeth pulled. Maybe by this weekend. I have some air leak from my oil cap tube so I might pull that apart and find its problem also
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post #13 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 04:59 PM
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If you have the oil filler tube that sticks up above the valve cover there are two large O-rings that seal it, one on the cap and the other on the valve cover. Sometimes the tube gets knocked when installing the engine breaks the tab holding the tube down so it doesn't seal. If you can rock it around it is broken, replace it with a new tube and seal(sold separately, about $10).

As far as the DIC readout. One be sure your Jeep gas pedal is plugged in. Depress the pedal to almost WOT and wedge it open with a triangle shaped shim. This will bring the mpg down. You can use the pedal to fine tune the display, the further down it is the lower the mpg displayed.

Remember you will also use the Jeep pedal to reset the oil reminder indicator.

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post #14 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoTech View Post
If you have the oil filler tube that sticks up above the valve cover there are two large O-rings that seal it, one on the cap and the other on the valve cover. Sometimes the tube gets knocked when installing the engine breaks the tab holding the tube down so it doesn't seal. If you can rock it around it is broken, replace it with a new tube and seal(sold separately, about $10).

As far as the DIC readout. One be sure your Jeep gas pedal is plugged in. Depress the pedal to almost WOT and wedge it open with a triangle shaped shim. This will bring the mpg down. You can use the pedal to fine tune the display, the further down it is the lower the mpg displayed.

Remember you will also use the Jeep pedal to reset the oil reminder indicator.
So I can get a close accurate mpg reading if I plug in the pedal? I dont have an oil change light so I tossed the pedal. Its in tge garage somewhere still. Im at 80 mpg last I looked
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post #15 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 07:03 PM
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So I can get a close accurate mpg reading if I plug in the pedal? I dont have an oil change light so I tossed the pedal. Its in tge garage somewhere still. Im at 80 mpg last I looked
That's right, cut the pedal as shown in the instructions plug it in and mount it. You can still reach it this way with your toe to reset oil reminder.

Unplugged mpg will indicate very high. Plugged in use the pedal to fine tune the display, It will be close but they are never that accurate even stock. I programmed my interceptor to within a few tenths but it took a lot of effort and I forgot how lol.

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post #16 of 271 Old 11-12-2013, 07:27 PM Thread Starter
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I'm leaving mine at 7 L/100KM so my wife thinks it was money well spent, she can't even stay below 12 in het RDX.

Sean
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post #17 of 271 Old 11-13-2013, 07:59 AM
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I had my pedal pretty darn close but released it to reset my oil change indicator. Would not reset untill I released the pedal! But now I am getting anywhere from 20 to 30 mpg! Where and what kind of vibration are you getting? I had a combination tire and driveshaft. My front Woods is just out of neutral with the yoke so I still have some caster even though it is not much 1.5 degrees. I still have a little bit but at 4 degrees with my tires not balanced good it was almost undriveable! Getting tires dynamicaly balanced and took off driveshaft led me to issue.

2008 Sahara 2011 LS5.3 6spd. auto 30/44, 35" NITTO's, 4.10 gears with TrueTracs front and rear, 3.5" Metalcloak game-changer ARB, front track bar drop and drag link flip steering box cross brace to passenger frame rail, PSC pump and reservoir. EFI Live tune on motor.
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post #18 of 271 Old 11-13-2013, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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I'm closing in on the vibrations. I read that the rear pinion should be 2 degrees less than the D/S on a CV driveshaft but after talking to the owner at the local 4x4 shop yesterday he said to make it straight in line and not worry about axle wrap. Just set it up this morning gonna test drive it now. I noticed it's built out of phase by 90 degrees, Is this normal? I pulled my front apart and lined up the yokes, not sure if the rear will come apart.

I had gotten my lift installed by another 4x4 shop here in town and noticed among other things he didn't put bushings in my sway bar disco's. They were screwed so I put in some Synergy ball joint ones as well as new Synergy adjustable LCA's up front so I could get my caster back.

I'm sure it's gonna take me twice as long to smooth out going back and forth like this but I'm thinking once they do my alignment and check over my work it should be in good shape.

EFI shipped from Auckland NZ yesterday and Fedex says it's already in town today, that was fast and only $41.

Picture of my vacuum leak on the pcv line.

Sean
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post #19 of 271 Old 11-13-2013, 04:05 PM
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You will like EFI Live! So many things to look at but it does get confusing. Robie knows it well but there are many a guru on the EFI Live forum to ask also. Trial and error just have your originals backed up and heed the warning box's so you dont brick your box. Some things like the TPS are hands off areas!

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post #20 of 271 Old 11-13-2013, 06:22 PM
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I would not pull the drive shaft apart. If they gave it back that way then it was balanced together like that or one would assume they did it that way.

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post #21 of 271 Old 11-14-2013, 07:58 AM
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Might want to check these guys out, you data log your LS swap then send info to them so they can custom tune.

http://www.blackbearperformance.com/autocal.asp

Dealer for: MoTech, Atlas, Dynatrac, Rock Krawler, ORO, Currie, Poison Spyder, Bilstein, Fox, SWAY-A-WAY, Ridid, Adams and Tom Woods DS's. And much more!


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post #22 of 271 Old 11-14-2013, 05:07 PM
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I have LS3 Motech conversion with custom Extractors, Exhaust and COLD CAI. Running 6.2LS3 with 6L80E.

I have used many others but this guy Steve knows his shit. He has a chevy himself and finding the right tune on 37" Tires with 6L80E is the ticket.

So not only engine but the transmission ha sto be tuned properly.

I am extremly happy with this guy and his customer service is best like Robbbie,

http://www.6l80etuning.com/
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post #23 of 271 Old 11-14-2013, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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I'll have to check this all out, thanks.

Just arrived gotta open it up and figure out how to run windows on my MAC. I can't believe I didn't notice that.....might be buying a garage PC.

Sean
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post #24 of 271 Old 11-14-2013, 09:24 PM
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I'll have to check this all out, thanks.

Just arrived gotta open it up and figure out how to run windows on my MAC. I can't believe I didn't notice that.....might be buying a garage PC.

Sean
garage PC is the way to go. Buy a cheap one for 200 bucks. Just buying a copy of windows to put on your mac will probably cost as much as a cheap laptop you can use for tuning. In order to run windows on it you will need to use the app called Boot Camp its a free mac os app but it still needs you to buy a copy of windows and it must be a full version

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post #25 of 271 Old 11-14-2013, 11:56 PM
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EFI Live can be confusing at first, remember the search bar is your friend when it comes to finding parameters.

Load EFI Live tuner, scanner and scan and tune on your pc. Update them all before using. Update the firmware on the flashscan too. EFI Live is a PITA if everything isn't up to date.

First thing is SAVE a copy of the original file, it's essentially the stock tune with vats removed.

Then "save as" a copy and name it modded tune; this way you can have to backup file if you screw things up.

There's a lot to learn with EFI Live, it may seem overwhelming at first but just change one thing at a time and observe the results.

To turn off afm go to - engine operation-air fuel management-parameters-afm equipped and set to "no", then save the file.

Download the tune as calibration only, takes about 30 seconds. You only need to do a full flash if changing vats or other important OS data, a full flash takes 4-5 minutes. The cal on a Gen IV ecm is about 2 megabytes and the tcm almost as much; in comparison a Gen III PCM is just over 200 kilobytes.

Be sure the flashscan is plugged into the pc whenever working with the cal. If the flashscan is not plugged in many important parameters will not be displayed like os patches, in addition you won't be able to save changes. It can be frustrating at first.

When saving or downloading files be sure to select the correct controller or you will get nowhere. Your ecm is an E38 and your TCM is a T43.

Eventually you can save many tunes on the flashscan and take it with you abd download at will. A economy tune, crawl tune, etc.

BTW I talked to James at Adams today and he mentioned he never builds a ds out if phase, something about both joints having to move together. One of my 69' Camaro's had the experimental ds that was clocked 45 degrees out of phase, it always vibrated. I was told GM eventually replaced them with conventional shafts.

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