Death WOBBLE Stumper.....2 months of trying to locate??? - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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Death WOBBLE Stumper.....2 months of trying to locate???

Hi I have 2012 JK with RE short arm kit 3.5" with a pro rock 44 in the front with 35's with 14k on it...Got my first DW after hitting a bump with the left front at about 15 mph a few months ago, besides scarying the crap out of me all was good. I trip to Fordyce later and it is out of control, un drivable! Happens 3 times in a 2 mile drive...It has been back to four wheel parts in Northern Ca three times and my local alignment guy and no one has a clue. Has a new drag link and track bar and a new steering box. Everything else checks out..I have looked at all of the posts and videos etc, laid under the jeep checked everything while someone steers it...NOTHING....At this point its starting to bum me out, its been almost 2 months without the jeep and its literally sitting in the shop? Any body have any guidance, I was thinking maybe a crack somewhere in the frame that you cant see or??Thanks for the help...
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post #2 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:00 PM
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How's your alignment check out ? Do you have the unlimited prorock ?
Drag link flipped or in stock location?



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post #3 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:02 PM
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I would focus on the frame side track bar mount. If the bolt hole is ovalled at all, you will have DW. If its cracked, you will have DW.

The other big factor is tire balance. Now before you say you had them rebalanced, perhaps read this:

http://classic.artsautomotive.com/GSP9700.htm

Good luck and hang in there. There is a reason for it.........it is always findable.

PS I have never had a shop of ANY kind fix my DW. I always had to figure it myself. Shops just want you in and out. This takes thinking and experimenting.................
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post #4 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:07 PM
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post #5 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:11 PM
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Please post pics of your front end.

Sounds like you have covered all bases, but just in case:

What tires are you running? Have you gotten them rebalanced since the DW?
Have you tried swapping your tires with another JK?

Tires usually aren't usually the cause of DW, but I had an MTR that was so out of round that it did actually cause DW.


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post #6 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:48 PM
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DW is most likely a track bar issue. All other issues ie tires/ball joints/alignment etc only contribute to it.


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post #7 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks guys I have the reid high steer knuckles, toyo MT, balanced and aligned, castor and cambor are perfect...I believe it is the pro rock unlimited..
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post #8 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Will post pics tomorrow its sitting collecting dust at the shop.
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post #9 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgmacd3 View Post
Thanks guys I have the reid high steer knuckles, toyo MT, balanced and aligned, castor and cambor are perfect...I believe it is the pro rock unlimited..

What speeds does the dw come in at?

No such thing as being perfect castor and camber. Give us #'s. Should be looking for 7degrees castor. Camber doesn't change unless you bend something. Maybe you new that? What is the toe? You can hide dw with 0 toe. Thrust angle is then over compensated for though.

Control arms try he passenger side lower arm being 1/4" longer. Really! Do it. You wanted suggestions. That is a teraflex lift setup in the their instructions. It works.

Castor 7degrees.

Now ball joints, those are good?
What trackbar do u have?
You can consider a sector shaft brace. Do you run steering dampened? That usually masks a problem but it will take some pressure off the steering box.

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post #10 of 64 Old 10-31-2013, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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DW comes on at low speeds 20mph or less after hitting a bump with one side. I have a sector shaft brace on there and have the redneck Ram to install (that why I have the rebuilt ported steering box) but want to figure out the wobble first so I am not just masking it as you say...I will get pics on the front end and exact numbers tomorrow on castor etc. Thanks again for the insight much appreciated..
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post #11 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltz View Post
Please post pics of your front end.

Sounds like you have covered all bases, but just in case:

What tires are you running? Have you gotten them rebalanced since the DW?
Have you tried swapping your tires with another JK?

Tires usually aren't usually the cause of DW, but I had an MTR that was so out of round that it did actually cause DW.
Same thing happened to a buddy with Wrangler MTR's. He was about to trade it in after changing everything except the tires. I told him to swap tires from my rig and he just decided to buy the tires. Problem solved after installing the tires. Believe he has roughly 10K with the new tires and no DW.

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post #12 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 11:26 AM
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If you can, find a shop that can do a road force test on the tires. They may balance out fine but be out of round or they may have a heavy spot in the tread. A road force test will detect this.
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post #13 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 05:18 PM
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I don't recall ever having someone follow every step of my inspection checklist who hasn't found all their issues.

Basically, there are only so many things it can be, and if everything is inspected in one sitting, newly installed parts don't have a chance to get damaged.

Some ran too much caster--more than 4.7 degrees.

Some had tire and wheel problems and didn't rotate or swap wheels to test.

Some did not take the step of removing each front control arm and the trackbar to inspect bushings, bracket bolt holes, and bracket welds (usually the culprit).

Some didn't use channel lock pliers to check the tire rod and drag link ends.

Some did not correctly check their ball joints.

Many had their bolts torqued with rubber bushings twisted/pre-loaded/binding to he wrong ride height.

Most relied on a shop or dealer to check things out--who rarely do everything in my checklist.




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Last edited by planman; 11-01-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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post #14 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 05:21 PM
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What track bar are you running? I've seen one aftermarket track bar that would flex. This was the cause of a friends DW.


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post #15 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
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Here are the pics, castor is at 4 degrees according to 4wheel parts..Sorry not the best pics. I am going to grab some stock tires on Monday and throw them on and see if that does anything..













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post #16 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 06:24 PM
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Where in Norcal are you. We have a Jeep night in Pacifica on Wednesday nights. If you are close come on by and we can check it out for you.
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post #17 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 06:30 PM Thread Starter
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Im in Marin...Might take you up on that..It is beyond sketchy to drive, would have to trailer it down..
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post #18 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 06:42 PM
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If you can't get it down here there is always Todd at Jeep Speed Shop in Cotati. He knows Jeeps inside and out.
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post #19 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 06:49 PM
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Just a couple things I noticed - may or may not cause a problem.

But both lower control arm mounts seem to be bent.

Is that a drop bracket for the frame side track bar mount? Are you supposed to run that with a flipped draglink? Usually you use a axle side bracket to raise the mounting point, although it looks like your draglink and trackbar are pretty much parallel in relationship to the mounting points.


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post #20 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 08:38 PM
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X2 I don't see a axle bracket. Can't see the frame side, it's too dark.
The TB needs to be lowered or raised to match the angle of the drag link. Raised is preferred because roll center is corrected as well.


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post #21 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 09:13 PM
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Brighter pictures would help. And take one so we can see everything at once.
If I'm correct it looks like a drop track bar bracket? If so I'd ditch that and get a raised one for the axle side. You'll want one that is for use with the Draglink flip, I like Synergy's but there are plenty out there.

Go through this thread: https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30723

Go step by step. You will find what's causing it.
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post #22 of 64 Old 11-01-2013, 11:26 PM
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It's your control arm bushings. Swap them out and your golden. Went through this before.
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post #23 of 64 Old 11-02-2013, 07:39 AM
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I fought DW for about 5 months. My JK became a garage queen....I was seriously think about selling the damn thing. I was at my wits end and just about ready to say F.... it! I had done every thing I was supposed to do including three front alignments (Kept thinking the last guy got it wrong!) . I thought I ran through Planman's checklist. https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30723

But then I put my stock tires back on and viola the DW was gone!!! Problem with the tires. Stuck the 35" GY MTR/K back on, rotating them front to back and visa-versa and the problem was resolved. After measuring the tires I found that three of the tires were out of round. I managed to get three of the five tires warranted by GY at no cost - they had less than 200 miles on them. The other two were good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by planman View Post
Some had tire and wheel problems and didn't rotate or swap wheels to test.
Yeah, that would be me. Did I mention that I thought I ran through Planman's checklist? Nope, I didn't. Right there in his introductory paragraph he says rotate or replace your tires!!! Before I got to this point I had multiple episodes of DW and had wallowed out the lower trac-bar brace. $$ and time to replace.

While waiting to receive the replaced tires I decided to replace my ball joints. I only had 32K on the JK at this time and it appeared that the BJs were in ok (1-2mm of movement in tire is not that much and hard to see). 3 of the 4 BJs were ok. The upper BJ on the passenger side was all sorts of floppy when I removed it. While I don't think this was the primary cause of the DW, it most certainly a contributing factor that amplified the out of round tires.

Got the new tires installed, got back on the road and the front end was tight again and no more DW. Life was good again.

About 8 months later I had another episode of DW! Damn it all! Luckily, I was only 2 miles or so from the house, kept it under 40 and got back home without another episode. First thing I did was check out Planman's checklist again. And his newly posted how to conduct an inspection videos. Yes, his checklist explained how to conduct the inspection, but I like pictures....I'm just slow that way. Found the problem in less than 10 minutes - the tie rod ends were bad. Probably as a result of my previous DW episode coupled with stress of larger tires. Replaced the OEM tie rod and drag link (what the hell, I was already replacing tie rod).

Also, at some point in this process I replaced the 14mm bolts with 9/16 bolts.

The front end of the jk has never been tighter. 8 months later and with multiple wheeling trips, I still have total confidence in the vehicle...finally. (always check your bolts afterwards!).

Apologies for the length of this post, but I want to share my experience with chasing DW. I thought I had followed Planmans checklist, I didn't and it cost me me time and money.

In the end it was worth it. Learned a hell of a lot about the JK and had the satisfaction of resolving the issue on my own.

BTW - this is not a paid advertisement for Planman, just one guy's thanks that he put the time and effort into developing his checklist and videos.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." - H.L. Mencken

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post #24 of 64 Old 11-02-2013, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RUCKDOG View Post
I fought DW for about 5 months. My JK became a garage queen....I was seriously think about selling the damn thing. I was at my wits end and just about ready to say F.... it! I had done every thing I was supposed to do including three front alignments (Kept thinking the last guy got it wrong!) . I thought I ran through Planman's checklist. https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30723

But then I put my stock tires back on and viola the DW was gone!!! Problem with the tires. Stuck the 35" GY MTR/K back on, rotating them front to back and visa-versa and the problem was resolved. After measuring the tires I found that three of the tires were out of round. I managed to get three of the five tires warranted by GY at no cost - they had less than 200 miles on them. The other two were good.



Yeah, that would be me. Did I mention that I thought I ran through Planman's checklist? Nope, I didn't. Right there in his introductory paragraph he says rotate or replace your tires!!! Before I got to this point I had multiple episodes of DW and had wallowed out the lower trac-bar brace. $$ and time to replace.

While waiting to receive the replaced tires I decided to replace my ball joints. I only had 32K on the JK at this time and it appeared that the BJs were in ok (1-2mm of movement in tire is not that much and hard to see). 3 of the 4 BJs were ok. The upper BJ on the passenger side was all sorts of floppy when I removed it. While I don't think this was the primary cause of the DW, it most certainly a contributing factor that amplified the out of round tires.

Got the new tires installed, got back on the road and the front end was tight again and no more DW. Life was good again.

About 8 months later I had another episode of DW! Damn it all! Luckily, I was only 2 miles or so from the house, kept it under 40 and got back home without another episode. First thing I did was check out Planman's checklist again. And his newly posted how to conduct an inspection videos. Yes, his checklist explained how to conduct the inspection, but I like pictures....I'm just slow that way. Found the problem in less than 10 minutes - the tie rod ends were bad. Probably as a result of my previous DW episode coupled with stress of larger tires. Replaced the OEM tie rod and drag link (what the hell, I was already replacing tie rod).

Also, at some point in this process I replaced the 14mm bolts with 9/16 bolts.

The front end of the jk has never been tighter. 8 months later and with multiple wheeling trips, I still have total confidence in the vehicle...finally. (always check your bolts afterwards!).

Apologies for the length of this post, but I want to share my experience with chasing DW. I thought I had followed Planmans checklist, I didn't and it cost me me time and money.

In the end it was worth it. Learned a hell of a lot about the JK and had the satisfaction of resolving the issue on my own.

BTW - this is not a paid advertisement for Planman, just one guy's thanks that he put the time and effort into developing his checklist and videos.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
Sounds very famaliar. I took mine to an alignment shop that specialized in large trucks and RVs. They were supposed to be DW experts. They had the Jeep for several days and I think it was worse when they were done. (To be fair they admitted they could not resolve the problem.) It was the tires...........
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post #25 of 64 Old 11-02-2013, 10:45 AM
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I agree with most of the guys posting up for ya that there really isn't a shop around that will take care of this problem. There are so many factors that contribute and only so much time a shop is willing to put into a job before they simply give up or tell you that you have to start all over and dump a fortune with them.

I've never looked into Planman's checklist but it sounds like a great write up and I would def read it over for better understanding of what to check and how to check it.

Trackbars and wheels/tires do seem to be the primary culprit, then down the line of failed or failing parts lists of each related component. We see so many rigs that have gone through and replaced everything just to have the parts go bad very quickly due to getting beat to shit by the dw.

I've personally been pretty lucky and never experienced dw on my rig. Of course I am so anal about checking all the steering components very regularly and servicing them as needed or replacing them if there is the slightest amount of play or slop that maybe by sheer dumb luck I stay just ahead of the curve. lol.

Yes, your pics suck. Don't know how any of us could help with such unclear pics. Good eye to those who can haha. So all the steering components are RE as well, including the trackbar, draglink and tie rod you are running?

I do see that you have a dropped frame trackbar bracket along with a RSP sector shaft brace. I will assume that when the dropped tb bracket was installed along with the RSP ssb it was set up custom and that no stress was put on the sector shaft or gearbox itself. Not that this would affect dw, but rather it would affect your sector shaft and gearbox over time (this is completely off the subject so sorry, just checking for ya). I'm not a huge fan of the front frame side drop bracket. Yes it gives more clearance for the use of any tb especially with the RSP ssb but it also allows for some flex that might be avoided a little better by raising the tb at the axle side instead (Artec makes a great one -no I'm not a dealer or anything like that, just like their weld on mount).

Again, off subject a little, but important to the equation. How much caster was built into your PR44? Typical PR44 setting is 6 deg with the pinion at zero which is pretty much the same as a stock rubicon d44. You say 4wheel parts told you that your caster is set at 4deg? Seems a little low to me on a RE 3.5" lift unless you have some heavy ass bumpers and winch gear and the lift has sagged out really bad. By seeing the clearances on your dl flip and the dropped tb bracket I would say sagging isn't the case. You only have a couple degrees of pinion angle which seems pretty low to me too (am I the only one). I doubt you have a PR44 with 10 deg of preset caster though but check on that so you know which PR44 you do have.

Check the caster yourself and don't rely on 4wheel parts. Use a large socket and place it on the upper ball joint with a digital angle finder. This will help you to set your own caster/pinion angles and also get you working on your own alignment and get the jeep out of the shop. Anyway, I recommend starting at 5.5 deg if not even a little stronger and work from there positive or negative depending on how YOUR rig responds to it. Also note that both sides may not be the same due to mounting brackets possibly being mounted in slightly different positions on either side (both axle and frame). In other words, your control arms may not be the same lengths. Very common and nothing to worry about as long as the axle is perpendicular to the frame to begin with and positioned properly front to back. Once axle position is set using the lower arms, the upper arms will just fall in where they fall in at whatever caster or pinion angle you ultimately decide on. Upper arms can be off as much as 1/2" easily although not commonly that much, but rare that they are exact on each side. Avoid the desire to twist the axle to make them the same length and know that both sides of caster may not be exact. Also avoid adjusting the lower arms to compensate as this begins to put your axle at an opposing angle which then starts to put wear on components and will result in a pull to one side or the other...

I don't want to bad mouth any manufacturer but RE joints can sometimes tend to wear very prematurely so def check out the control arm joints. Good thing is that if they are bad, RE should replace the joints for free. If you had your rig at 4wheel parts then they should have already checked them. Now, with that said, it's very likely that they didn't so put that burden on yourself too. Once you determine that the control arms are holding the axle in the correct position, you can then start diagnosing other problems. Changing the tires out is a great starting point to determine if they are the culprit or not. If you still experience dw then start at the trackbar like most folks are saying, bushings or joints, mounting holes and bolts. Even slight wear can contribute. Seems like the quality of our tre's these days leaves a lot to be desired so really check and double check them. Again, even the slightest amount of play can multiply during a dw experience. Ball joints add a lot to the equation as well so don't ignore them.

Death wobble is a nightmare and due to all the factors involved, it can take time to diagnose. But if you rule out tires then it should be much easier. Get the rig down to some of the guys offering to look at it and have them help you learn how to align it yourself. The more familiar you get with it and the more regularly you maintain it the less likely you are to have issues and the happier you will be. Nothing can be more frustrating than chasing an illusive problem and that's why we are all here, to help each other out. Good luck man!!

Originally Posted by van7559
I can bury my pinky in the rear, and just barley feel it, the front is a little easier, but still seems low to me!

I fist fuck life with a nuclear powered pneumatic fuck hammer for 60, 70 hrs a week...
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