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post #1 of 36 Old 04-23-2017, 08:50 PM Thread Starter
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Boosted technology jk 3.8 supercharger

Is anyone familiar with this? I've been searching for any kind of review for months with no luck.
http://www.boostedtech.com/superchar...-supercharger/
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post #2 of 36 Old 04-23-2017, 09:19 PM
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Is anyone familiar with this? I've been searching for any kind of review for months with no luck.
http://www.boostedtech.com/superchar...-supercharger/
@ALASHA knows more about most s/c systems than most, maybe he can chip in.
My own feeling on these guys is they can't properly do a dyno run, and knowingly post anomalous data. The complaints I see on the web are mostly tune related. I ran an Eaton m90 from Avenger, still think it was a great system. There was a tuner (Jeremy) from Revolutions Performance also at [email protected]. He had some good JK tunes, dunno if he is still doing this.

Sorry, not a directly relevant response. Hope it helps.

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post #3 of 36 Old 04-24-2017, 06:37 AM
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This is the biggest pile of shit I have seen in a very long time. This is obviously an attempt at providing the cheapest piece of crap you could buy and it shows. Here is the list of crap wrong with this thing:

Non intercooled.
M62 instead of at least m90 - small blower equals less volume and hotter air compared to a larger blower at same boost
7th injector and FTC tuning is like 2007 era technology in the JK world. Guys dont know what they are doing to say the least.
dyno graph - WTF???? really shows they dont have a clue

If you want to drop over 3K to get nominal performance gains and more than likely reduce engine longevity drastically, then this is you kit.
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post #4 of 36 Old 04-24-2017, 07:09 AM
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Listen to the man.

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post #5 of 36 Old 04-24-2017, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
This is the biggest pile of shit I have seen in a very long time. This is obviously an attempt at providing the cheapest piece of crap you could buy and it shows. Here is the list of crap wrong with this thing:

Non intercooled.
M62 instead of at least m90 - small blower equals less volume and hotter air compared to a larger blower at same boost
7th injector and FTC tuning is like 2007 era technology in the JK world. Guys dont know what they are doing to say the least.
dyno graph - WTF???? really shows they dont have a clue

If you want to drop over 3K to get nominal performance gains and more than likely reduce engine longevity drastically, then this is you kit.
^^This.....don't do it....or at least I wouldn't

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post #6 of 36 Old 04-25-2017, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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That's kind of what I expected to hear, thanks all for the advice.
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post #7 of 36 Old 05-31-2017, 06:55 PM
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The Chrysler 3.8L V6 debuted in 1991. Was developed in the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysl...%26_3.8_engine

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post #8 of 36 Old 05-31-2017, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
The Chrysler 3.8L V6 debuted in 1991. Was developed in the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysl...%26_3.8_engine
Thanks Tips.
Just one question, how is that relevant to a thread asking about crappy supercharger?

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post #9 of 36 Old 05-31-2017, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
The Chrysler 3.8L V6 debuted in 1991. Was developed in the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysl...%26_3.8_engine
Thanks Tips.
Just one question, how is that relevant to a thread asking about crappy supercharger?
ooh, oooh, oooooh! I know!

Check the link in his signature He sells those crappy superchargers
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post #10 of 36 Old 05-31-2017, 08:07 PM
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7th injector and FTC tuning is like 2007 era technology in the JK world.
I would be happy to clarify any misconceptions.

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post #11 of 36 Old 06-01-2017, 04:49 AM
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Just some basics-

The Chrysler ECUs have been very difficult to crack and be able to reprogram. When installing 6 bigger injectors, 2 bar MAP sensors, forced induction the ECU needs to be reprogrammed. Many have tried like Diablosport, Hypertech and others. There have been many failures when trying this route. Years ago most, before we were easily able to reprogram ECUs, all the forced induction manufactures had to use 'Old School' technologies like the auxiliary injector to add the extra fuel required under boost. Whipple, TRD, Jackson, Ripp to name a few, all used auxiliary injectors to solve their fueling needs.

The Chrysler 3.8L V6 is just an 'Old Technolory' engine. Designed in the 80s and built inthe 90s thru 2011 in the Jeep JK. Pushrod, low compression, poor flowing heads and manifolds. Originally designed for the Minivan. That's the truth. Failed attempts to use 6 bigger injectors and ECU reprogramming required different solutions. Many complaints have been the 'tuning' of most all of the 3.8L forced induction kits.

To add about 100HP requires more fuel, about 60 lbs/hr more fuel. So instead of adding 6 bigger injectors and not being able to reprogram the ECU with any success, using the 7th injector was a reasonable solution. By using a single 60 lb/hr 7th injector all the fuel needed under boost could be supplied. Controlling this additional injector is basically a stand alone controller. The Split Second FTC1 controls this extra injector and ignition timing during boost. Chrysler spent thousands of hours an millions of dollars programming their ECUs. Cold start, idle, cruise, emissions. SO don't mess with and change this. It works perfect out of boost. Only in boost does the FTC1 turn on and pulses the extra injector and retard the timing, both of which are required during boost. The FTC1 'piggybacks' into the stock ECUs wires/connecotrs and takes some signals and intercepts the crank and cam sensor signals to do this. It is easily and fully programmable for the fuel and timing retard in tables by boost and rpm. A clean and simple solution to a difficult problem. Also 6 bigger injectors costs about $250 more than 1 single 60lb/hr injector.

Then instead of injecting the extra fuel needed during boost with 6 bigger injectors right into the head and valve/combustion chamber, The 7th injector Injects the fuel INTO the supercharger inlet and adds the additional benefit of COOLING the charge intake air temperatures. The fuel acts as a 'Chemical/Liquid' intercooler reducing the charge intake air temps by 50-80 degrees. No heat soaking. Try and do that with a front mount air to air or top mound 2" thick water to air intercooler.

New superchargers cost between $2000 to $2500. Tomorrow they are used superchargers. By re-purposing the GM Eaton superchargers for a different application saves money. Millions of these superchargers were built by Eaton for GM. They have run over 100,000 miles with minimal maintenance and million of miles collectively. By modifying the housing, these supercharger can be made to fit different applications, like the Jeeps 4.0, 3.8 and 3.6 engines. They are ideal superchargers for Jeeps. They build boost early just off idle and build Torque. Just what the Jeeps need. No having to rev it out to build boost like centrifugal superchargers require. And they are cheap. Easily rebuildable and last nearly forever. A New SC will add $2000 to kits cost.

M62 vs M90. It is best to use an appropriately sized supercharger for the intended application. For low reving Jeep engines keeping a supercharger in it's efficiency range is most important. A faster spinning M62 is more efficient than a slower spinning M90. Air temps are about the same with either supercharger compressing to 5-6psi. The M62 takes less power to spin than the M90. For a low reving, low boost 4.0 or 3.8L engine the M62 is a perfect fit.

The 3.8L engine is 232CI. It 'ingests' 232 CI of air for each engine cycle. Each engine cycle is 2 revolutions. So for 1 revolution, the engine ingests 116 CI of air. The M62 SC puts out 62 CI of air per revolution. By using a 2.5" SC pulley and the 6.375" crank pulley achieves a 2.6:1 step up. 6 psi of boost requires about 37.5% more air, so the 3.8L 116CI + 37.5% = 160CI of air. Spinning the M62 SC 2.6 times the crank revolution will put out 62 x 2.6 = 161 CI of air. Just exactly what the 3.8L Jeep engine requires to make 6 pounds of boost. The SC will be turning at maximum 5000 engine rpm, 13,000rpm which is under the maximum recommended constant speed and is right in it's most efficient zone. It really is the perfect size supercharger for a low reving low boost application like the JK 3.8L. For a higher reving engine or requiring more boost, then the M62 is too small.

The M90 would require a 1.77:1 step up to put out the same 160 CI of air for 6 pounds of boost. This requires a 3.5" SC pulley and the SC will operate at a maximum engine 5000 rpm of 8,850 SC rpm and lower during lower engine rpms. This is well BELOW it's efficiency zone. It will put out less boost and requires MORE power to spin. For the Jeep JK 3.8L this is just too big for this low rpm, low boost application.

Cheaper, low cost is all relative. Using a rebuilt sub $500 supercharger is cheaper than a new $2500 SC. The SC kits could be easily $2000 more expensive with a Brand New SC that is a used SC tomorrow. Savings include- Repurposing used/rebuilt M62/M90 SC -$2000, 5 less bigger injectors -$250, No intercooler (it does have a liquid/chemical intercooler) -$1200
Total savings is $3450 compared to others.

I hope that clears up some general misconceptions. Education is needed to make informed decisions. Only take feedback from someone who uses and has experience with a product.
Happy boosting.
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post #12 of 36 Old 06-08-2017, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
I would be happy to clarify any misconceptions.
This isn’t a misconception. This is a fact. Ripp did piggy back tuning with a 7th injector back in 07 until Diablo started supporting reflashing of the JK ecu.


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Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Years ago most, before we were easily able to reprogram ECUs, all the forced induction manufactures had to use 'Old School' technologies like the auxiliary injector to add the extra fuel required under boost. Whipple, TRD, Jackson, Ripp to name a few, all used auxiliary injectors to solve their fueling needs.
Keyword is old school. Just because it was done doesn’t mean it’s the best solution. Just like we moved from carburetors to fuel injection so did all of the aftermarket companies you mentioned as well as just about every major reputable performance company in existence today transitioned to full reflashes.
Reprogramming the computer is exponentially better than trying to lie to it. Today’s ECUs can adjust based on input so they will in effect negate what your piggy back does to a certain degree.
Furthermore, adding a supercharger completely changes the air flow characteristics across the board, not just under load conditions further supporting the idea that a reflash is the right way to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
The Chrysler ECUs have been very difficult to crack and be able to reprogram. When installing 6 bigger injectors, 2 bar MAP sensors, forced induction the ECU needs to be reprogrammed. Many have tried like Diablosport, Hypertech and others. There have been many failures when trying this route. ……
Failed attempts to use 6 bigger injectors and ECU reprogramming required different solutions. Many complaints have been the 'tuning' of most all of the 3.8L forced induction kits.
You word your statement like Diablosport failed in relfashing JK ECUs. They have quirks and suck as a company but they certainly didn’t fail. You can successfully tune a JK ECU to handle larger injectors, a different map sensor and forced induction. Just takes a skilled tuner. I have the first relfashed and supercharged JK in the country and have been running strong and without issue for the last 7+ years.


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Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Then instead of injecting the extra fuel needed during boost with 6 bigger injectors right into the head and valve/combustion chamber, The 7th injector Injects the fuel INTO the supercharger inlet and adds the additional benefit of COOLING the charge intake air temperatures. The fuel acts as a 'Chemical/Liquid' intercooler reducing the charge intake air temps by 50-80 degrees. No heat soaking. Try and do that with a front mount air to air or top mound 2" thick water to air intercooler.
That 7th injector is not cooling when you are in a non boost situation like crawling or partial throttle driving where you are still under vacuum but that supercharger is still adding heat to the system. Furthermore, a 7tgh injector doesn’t guarantee even distribution of supplemental fuel across all 6 cyclinders. You can create a lean condition in one cylinder while causing a rich condition in another. Ill take my chances with a water to air intercooler…

Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
M62 vs M90. It is best to use an appropriately sized supercharger for the intended application. For low reving Jeep engines keeping a supercharger in it's efficiency range is most important. A faster spinning M62 is more efficient than a slower spinning M90. Air temps are about the same with either supercharger compressing to 5-6psi. The M62 takes less power to spin than the M90. For a low reving, low boost 4.0 or 3.8L engine the M62 is a perfect fit.

The 3.8L engine is 232CI. It 'ingests' 232 CI of air for each engine cycle. Each engine cycle is 2 revolutions. So for 1 revolution, the engine ingests 116 CI of air. The M62 SC puts out 62 CI of air per revolution. By using a 2.5" SC pulley and the 6.375" crank pulley achieves a 2.6:1 step up. 6 psi of boost requires about 37.5% more air, so the 3.8L 116CI + 37.5% = 160CI of air. Spinning the M62 SC 2.6 times the crank revolution will put out 62 x 2.6 = 161 CI of air. Just exactly what the 3.8L Jeep engine requires to make 6 pounds of boost. The SC will be turning at maximum 5000 engine rpm, 13,000rpm which is under the maximum recommended constant speed and is right in it's most efficient zone. It really is the perfect size supercharger for a low reving low boost application like the JK 3.8L. For a higher reving engine or requiring more boost, then the M62 is too small.

The M90 would require a 1.77:1 step up to put out the same 160 CI of air for 6 pounds of boost. This requires a 3.5" SC pulley and the SC will operate at a maximum engine 5000 rpm of 8,850 SC rpm and lower during lower engine rpms. This is well BELOW it's efficiency zone. It will put out less boost and requires MORE power to spin. For the Jeep JK 3.8L this is just too big for this low rpm, low boost application.
When one tries to size a supercharger or turbo for an application, they will refer to a compressor map to determine the best fit. Garrett does an excellent write up on this process (https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-con...o-Tech-103.pdf) but Eaton provides their maps in cubic meters of flow per hour compared to Garrett’s pounds per minute so I had to resort to this write up to get a good basis (How to Size a Custom Supercharger | eHow)

You can use either write up to determine that you will be around 7-8 psi of boost at redline (~5800 rpm) which is ~1.5 pressure ratio.
Next up, assume the stock 200 hp number from the factory is accurate and expecting a 50% increase from a supercharger is fair so our target is 300hp. Based on my dyno graphs, I was making peak torque at around 3550 rpm so that gives us our rpm range and I assumed .9 VE at 3550 and .8 VE at 5800. These are assumptions and are probably a bit high for what the old 3.8 really does but still gives us a good guesstimate of where we need to be.
If you follow along the second write up with the numbers I provided and do some conversion to cubic meters per hour, you should get about 544 and 790 cubic meters per hour at 3550 and 5800 rpm respectively.

We now have enough information to look at the respective compressor maps to get an idea of where we are at. Both maps are posted below.
Starting with M62, with 544 as the x axis and 1.5 as the y axis, we are probably in the 62 adiabatic efficiency circle. The higher that number, the cooler the incoming air. At 790 you are damn near off the graph which means you are essentially outside the blower’s usable range.
Looking at the M90, you are at 60 and 58 adiabatic efficiency respectively. Well within the efficient operating window of that blower and we are spinning the blower quite a bit less (green dotted lines represent supercharger rpm).

So what have we learned here? Yes the M62 is cooler at that lower rpm as you mentioned but only by about 3% and it falls flat on its face as you rev the motor. The M90 has a lot more potential and is better situated to handle the entire rpm range.

In case anyone is wondering, 7-8 psi peak is about what I saw on my stock kit and I actually got 55% increase in HP so real world numbers line up fairly well with the math. Also the M62 is designed for 2.5-4.0L engines while the M90 can accomidate 3-5L engines (Fifth Generation Superchargers) further supporting the fact that the M90 is the better choice for the application.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Only take feedback from someone who uses and has experience with a product.
You got that right…





Bonus for anyone that cares, look at the map for the TVS1320 and look how sweet it is
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Last edited by ALASHA; 06-04-2019 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Garrett moved their write up
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post #13 of 36 Old 06-08-2017, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
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This isn’t a misconception . . .






<drops science on CobraMarty, drops the mic>







You got that right…





Bonus for anyone that cares, look at the map for the TVS1320 and look how sweet it is
Hey ALASHA,

Thanks for taking the time to post all that. I learned something

But . . . pix no workee - any chance you could attach 'em?
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post #14 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 05:47 AM
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Just some basics-
.
It appears you are pimping your products here, ie your link in your profile, If you are a vendor purchase a yellow star like all the other vendors here.
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post #15 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 05:53 AM
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Anyone buying anything from Cobramarty deserves what little they get. Product is weak, website is weak, sales pitch is weak. I'd trust Ripp long before this.
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Running 37's as a daily driver is dumb
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post #16 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 06:28 AM
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you know one of the best things about hanging out on Jeep sites, they are a lot like motorcycle sites. folks here are not afraid to call you out or bust your fucking bubble if you're trying to sell crap.

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post #17 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 07:29 AM
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Hey ALASHA,

Thanks for taking the time to post all that. I learned something

But . . . pix no workee - any chance you could attach 'em?
Sorry. They were working when I posted but I guess that forum blocks cross posting. All the maps can be found here

https://www.superchargerforums.com/t...essor-maps.94/
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post #18 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 12:41 PM
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Internet educated 'know it alls' who can just regurgitate what they have read online. Go with it.
When you have any actual experience with a BT supercharger kit, We can talk. Until then you just don't know.

Good luck and best wishes Jeep'in.

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post #19 of 36 Old 06-09-2017, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CobraMarty View Post
Internet educated 'know it alls' who can just regurgitate what they have read online. Go with it.
When you have any actual experience with a BT supercharger kit, We can talk. Until then you just don't know.

Good luck and best wishes Jeep'in.
First of all, purchase a yellow star. Second, the whole point of this forum is discussion. So if this is the best you can come back with then I wish you luck.

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post #20 of 36 Old 06-10-2017, 06:47 AM
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Discussion Yes, outright attacks No. It is what it is.

I have been turbo and supercharging cars for over 40 years. I own 9 Jeeps- 2 are '85 turbodiesels, 3 are supercharged, 2 built forged motors 4.1 an 4.2L.
Also a Turbo Mini, a supercharged F150, Excursion TurboDiesel, Truck TurboDiesel, and numerous other cars, over 20 total.
None are stock, all have been modified.

So my son and I live and breath cars, engines, turbo and superchargers.
Just saying.
Now go out and wheel and get your Jeeps dirty. No pavement pounders here.

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post #21 of 36 Old 06-10-2017, 09:43 AM
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The 7th injector idea is interesting. It accomplishes some of the same things that methanol injection does, especially if you spray into the blower (which I think some designs do).

Larger injectors and map sensors are not the only way. When I had a blower on my OBD-I Miata, it came with a small device that plugged into your fuel injector signal and also had a vacuum line going to it. It was a MAP sensor of sorts, I suppose. The way that it worked was that it sensed boost and then just increased the IDC by keeping the injectors open longer.

I also had a device on there that sensed boost and had a knob on it to adjust the timing. I forgot exactly how it worked but it allowed you to keep a more advanced setting than you otherwise could. On a car like that, you had to back the timing off.

This FI kit worked well and utilized the stock Mazda MAP sensor and fuel injectors.
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post #22 of 36 Old 06-10-2017, 02:13 PM
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The 7th injector idea is interesting. It accomplishes some of the same things that methanol injection does, especially if you spray into the blower (which I think some designs do).

Larger injectors and map sensors are not the only way.
That's all I'm saying.

Auxiliary injectors which inject the fuel after the turbo or supercharger do not have the benefits of injecting fuel into the supercharger.
Unfortunately you can not inject fuel or water/meth into to a turbocharger or a centrifugal supercharger. But you can inject fuel or water/meth into a roots/twisted roots or twin screw supercharger.
Injecting fuel or water/meth after the turbo/supercharger does not give good distribution unless they are port injected. Poor distribution will cause richer/leaner cylinders and different intake temps to each cylinder.
Injecting after the turbo/supercharger will not allow enough time to 'vaporize' and cool the charge intake air temperature.
In a log type intake manifold, the fuel/water/meth will 'stack up' at the end and the end cylinder will be richer than the front cylinders.

By injecting fuel or water/meth into the supercharger it does several things.
-It helps seal the rotors to each other and the case and prevents backflow and increases efficiency and boost.
-It cools the compressed air by the vaporization of the fuel/water/meth by 70*F. Decreasing charge intake air temperature will decrease chance of detonation, allow less timing retard under boost, allow for lower octane fuel to be used and increases power by 1%/10*F decrease in temperature.
-It gets mixed and 'homogenized' with the air into a 'complete mixture' such that everywhere the air goes, the same amount of fuel/water/meth will go.

The auxiliary injector is controlled by it's own stand alone injector controller. It 'piggybacks' only to intercept the crank position sensor and cam position sensor and to get 12v pos and neg. It also taps into the manifold after the turbo/supercharger and reads vacuum and boost. It can then know the rpm and boost and can alter the timing of the crank and cam position sensors to allow for timing retard under boost and fire/pulse the auxiliary injector 6 times per engine cycle to allow for an even flow of fuel during the engine cycle. It is fully programmable. It has a timing and fuel table which are rpm and boost dependent.
The ECU must be in 'OPEN' loop so that the additional injected fuel does not cause the stock ecu to pull back fuel from the stock 6 injectors.

Different applications require different solutions. I would not use an auxiliary injector on a new Corvette, Camaro. Mustang, BMW, etc. But on a vehicle which is low tech, low performance, low output and with an ECU which is difficult at best or unable to tune/adjust, Like the Jeep 4.0L or 3.8L, the auxiliary injector works surprisingly well. Simple, easier, reproducible, cheaper and reliable. And it also functions as a liquid/chemical intercooler to cool the charger intake air temperatures after the turbo/supercharger.

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post #23 of 36 Old 06-11-2017, 04:31 AM
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White13JKUR-

WOW, I read your Edelbrock install thread. Lots going on there. You experienced and hit on so many issues and problems.

I agree that running a 2bar MAP sensor on a 1bar OS is part of the problem as well as high charge intake air temperatures. Mix in fouled spark plugs, bad plug wires, lazy O2 sensors, hot air intakes,crappy Chinese replacement parts, bad batteries, excessively worn/high mileage engines, higher boost, contaminated intake air with PCV oil, previous tune installed can all cause problems and have you chasing your tail.

The other is that about every 2 years, Chrysler changes up the ecu and tuning. When people talk across different years, there can be some confusion.

'98 XJ SUPERCHARGED 4.0L 225rwHP
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post #24 of 36 Old 06-11-2017, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
This isn’t a misconception. This is a fact. Ripp did piggy back tuning with a 7th injector back in 07 until Diablo started supporting reflashing of the JK ecu.
Yes they were but they were injecting fuel after the centrifugal supercharger and had poor distribution and mixture and less cooling effect. It was controlled by a 'piggyback' but it did not retard the timing during boost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Keyword is old school. Just because it was done doesn’t mean it’s the best solution. Just like we moved from carburetors to fuel injection so did all of the aftermarket companies you mentioned as well as just about every major reputable performance company in existence today transitioned to full reflashes.
Reprogramming the computer is exponentially better than trying to lie to it. Today’s ECUs can adjust based on input so they will in effect negate what your piggy back does to a certain degree.
Furthermore, adding a supercharger completely changes the airflow characteristics across the board, not just under load conditions further supporting the idea that a reflash is the right way to do it.
Different era's require different solutions. Different applications require different solutions. And yes a Jeep 4.0L and 3.8L engines are 'old school'.

In a simple low out, low rpm, low boost application, the auxiliary injector works well. Would it be better it it was designed and built and tuned at the factory? Absolutely. My '91 GMC Syclone case in point.

Today every major performance company does full flashes, but then again only support the newer vehicles and the abandoned the older('97-'06) or niche/low volume vehicles like Jeep.

There is NO lying to the stock ECU here. It 'steals' some wires and sensor values and is it's own stand alone auxiliary injector controller. It only delays the crank and cam sensor signals to retard timing under boost.

When you are in OPEN loop, the stock ecu does NOT negate what the auxiliary injector is doing.

And adding a SC and changes the airflow characteristics does not support the idea of needing a reflash. So does low restrictive air filters and intakes, bigger throttle bodies and headers also change the airflow characteristics and do not require a reflash as the ecu can adapt to the changes. When the supercharger has a 'ByPass Valve' at the inlet of the SC, there is very little change in airflow characteristics. THe intake air doesn't flow thru the supercharger.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
You word your statement like Diablosport failed in relfashing JK ECUs. They have quirks and suck as a company but they certainly didn’t fail. You can successfully tune a JK ECU to handle larger injectors, a different map sensor and forced induction. Just takes a skilled tuner. I have the first relfashed and supercharged JK in the country and have been running strong and without issue for the last 7+ years.
They have their 'Quirks and fail as a company' Yes that is a fail. None of the Big Major SC builders are able to supply a kit with a proper tune. So now you have to employ an outside skilled Tuner to build a tune that the SC company should have supplier. At an additional cost of $500-1000 on top of the $5500-6500 SC kit cost. That's a fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
That 7th injector is not cooling when you are in a non boost situation like crawling or partial throttle driving where you are still under vacuum but that supercharger is still adding heat to the system. Furthermore, a 7tgh injector doesn’t guarantee even distribution of supplemental fuel across all 6 cyclinders. You can create a lean condition in one cylinder while causing a rich condition in another. Ill take my chances with a water to air intercooler…
Your right, under vacuum the 7th injector is not turned on and is not cooling. The SC has a bypass valve and the air bypasses the SC. The fuel is staying cool and ready to be injectod under boost and cool the charge intake air temps.

Sandwiched under the SC and on top of the engine both heat soak way more and even though there is a bypass valve, the air still passes thru the heated manifold and intercooler core.

Crawling has minimal airflow for a FMIC or the water-air IC heat exchanger. They get hot and heatsoak when crawling.

You are right that there is poor fuel distribution when the 7th injector injects fuel AFTER the SC. When the fuel in injected INTO the SC it gets mixed/homogenized and vaporized and is blended with the air. Everywhere the air goes, fuel is right with it. There is NO fuel distribution issues. It's been tested.

2" thick water-air IC has to try and cool the heated air in only 2" of length. The charged air coming out of the supercharger can reach 250*F. The SC can add +150*F temp to the temperature of the air entering the SC which is already heated 20-40*F above ambient.

Liquid will always cool better than air. Injecting water/meth/fuel will cool the hot charged air more than any air-air or air-water IC.
Tell me which is 'hotter'- Putting your hand in a pan of 200*F water for 5 seconds or putting your hand in the oven at 200*F for 5 seconds. More heat transfer.

And you will be taking your chances with a air-water IC that doesn't work when crawling, gets heat soaked, can have a pump failure, only cools over 2" thick core, etc. On a street driven vehicle, it's a different application and a different story. Or maybe you only street drive your Jeep, IDK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
When one tries to size a supercharger or turbo for an application, they will refer to a compressor map to determine the best fit. Garrett does an excellent write up on this process (https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...compressor_map) but Eaton provides their maps in cubic meters of flow per hour compared to Garrett’s pounds per minute so I had to resort to this write up to get a good basis (How to Size a Custom Supercharger | eHow)

You can use either write up to determine that you will be around 7-8 psi of boost at redline (~5800 rpm) which is ~1.5 pressure ratio.
Next up, assume the stock 200 hp number from the factory is accurate and expecting a 50% increase from a supercharger is fair so our target is 300hp. Based on my dyno graphs, I was making peak torque at around 3550 rpm so that gives us our rpm range and I assumed .9 VE at 3550 and .8 VE at 5800. These are assumptions and are probably a bit high for what the old 3.8 really does but still gives us a good guesstimate of where we need to be.
If you follow along the second write up with the numbers I provided and do some conversion to cubic meters per hour, you should get about 544 and 790 cubic meters per hour at 3550 and 5800 rpm respectively.

We now have enough information to look at the respective compressor maps to get an idea of where we are at. Both maps are posted below.
Starting with M62, with 544 as the x axis and 1.5 as the y axis, we are probably in the 62 adiabatic efficiency circle. The higher that number, the cooler the incoming air. At 790 you are damn near off the graph which means you are essentially outside the blower’s usable range.
Looking at the M90, you are at 60 and 58 adiabatic efficiency respectively. Well within the efficient operating window of that blower and we are spinning the blower quite a bit less (green dotted lines represent supercharger rpm).

So what have we learned here? Yes the M62 is cooler at that lower rpm as you mentioned but only by about 3% and it falls flat on its face as you rev the motor. The M90 has a lot more potential and is better situated to handle the entire rpm range.
Of course you look at compressor maps. But you also have to look at the application engine. the Jeep 4.0 and 3.8 do not rev over 5000rpm. They are also choked of by very poor flowing intake manifolds, low duration and lift cams and poor flowing small valve heads. They really act like an engine is 30% smaller, and they injest air closer to 3L engines. They are very low output engines. 190hp/242cid= .78hp/ci is very low.

5-6psi will give 40% more power and not have the increased heat of 7-8psi.

These engines don't rev, and more boost is not always a good thing, more heat, more problems. Any idea how much additional HP the stock fuel pump can supply? How much more boost can the stock head gasket or head bolts support before failure? How much more boost can the hypereutetic pistons handle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
In case anyone is wondering, 7-8 psi peak is about what I saw on my stock kit and I actually got 55% increase in HP so real world numbers line up fairly well with the math. Also the M62 is designed for 2.5-4.0L engines while the M90 can accomidate 3-5L engines (Fifth Generation Superchargers) further supporting the fact that the M90 is the better choice for the application.
So you don't need 7-8psi at peak. You want 5-6psi across the whole rpm range. This will add a real +60rwhp and +70rwtq. That is a lot and plenty for the Jeeps when they only start with 135rwhp and 185rwtq.

Yep the M62 is designed for 2.5-4.0L engines and the last time I checked the Jeep 4.0 and 3.8L engines are less than 4.0L and with their poor flowing intake manifold, heads and low lift low duration cam they flow air and only act like a 3.0L engine. Looks like a perfect fit. Lower temps, lighter rotor weight, higher operating efficiency.
IN THIS APPLICATION, stock Jeep 4.0L or 3.8L with low 5-6psi boost and low reving 5000rpm maximum, the M62 is the right fit.

'98 XJ SUPERCHARGED 4.0L 225rwHP
Jeep XJ TJ JK 4.0 3.8 3.6 M62/90 Supercharger Expert
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post #25 of 36 Old 06-11-2017, 05:49 AM
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In a different application like a built engine with bigger cam, ported big valve head, free'r flowing exhaust, more rpm to 5800-6000rpm, or Stroker 4.6-4.7L engine the M62 is small. The M90 is a better fit for this application. But how many of these SC kits are going on an engine like this?

'98 XJ SUPERCHARGED 4.0L 225rwHP
Jeep XJ TJ JK 4.0 3.8 3.6 M62/90 Supercharger Expert
I supercharge Jeeps
PM me any questions

Last edited by CobraMarty; 06-12-2017 at 04:14 AM.
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