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post #1 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 06:27 AM Thread Starter
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Curious about HHO

With the recent talks about gas mileage I was curious if anyone on this forum has ever tried one of the Hydrogen Mod kits. In the research I have have done it seems fairly simple. I would like to know if their is really serious gas mileage gains and if possible long term effects to the engine as well as performance decreases.
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post #2 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 08:58 AM
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I know a guy who did it and he got worse mpg afterwards. He spent some time researching it further and came to the conclusion he needed to mess with the O2 sensors and computer to actually start seeing any benefit.

I looked into this a while back myself. If I was skeptical before researching it, I was even more so afterwards. The first thing that struck me was how MLM the whole industry appeared, and how crappy the available kits were.

It struck me as odd, that no "serious" players were involved, and that just about all the info came back to 3 or 4 web sites selling instructions.

Some of the kits available used things like jam jars in the engine bay, which just struck me as dumb.

I'm open to hearing about it, but it seems to me there are more people selling instructions and badly put together kits than they are using the technology.
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post #3 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 09:54 AM
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It's a good enough idea, hydrogen is easy to make, BUT.....
The levels required to do any good would be tough to make onboard.
You also have to take into consideration that the motor (computer really) wasn't designed with this in mind.

/jl

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post #4 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 10:20 AM Thread Starter
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I know a guy who did it and he got worse mpg afterwards. He spent some time researching it further and came to the conclusion he needed to mess with the O2 sensors and computer to actually start seeing any benefit.

I looked into this a while back myself. If I was skeptical before researching it, I was even more so afterwards. The first thing that struck me was how MLM the whole industry appeared, and how crappy the available kits were.

It struck me as odd, that no "serious" players were involved, and that just about all the info came back to 3 or 4 web sites selling instructions.

Some of the kits available used things like jam jars in the engine bay, which just struck me as dumb.

I'm open to hearing about it, but it seems to me there are more people selling instructions and badly put together kits than they are using the technology.
I noticed the same things about only a few sights and very cheaply constructed kits. The concept sounded good but I also was wondering how the computer configuration would handle it. Hopefully if anyone has any genuine good results they will post.
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post #5 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 02:21 PM
 
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E=MC2

And don't forget Conservation of Matter and Energy: Matter can not be created or destroyed, only change form.

Have heard a little of this, and the best explaination painted it like a form of hydrib setup. The catch is, no regenerative brakes, or any way to recapture the energy.

Sounds like a scam to me.
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post #6 of 20 Old 08-05-2008, 09:20 PM
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My friends an I have built 2. One is on a Dodge 2500 cummins and the other is on a Ford Contour. The Dodge saw a 2mpg increase and the Contour saw a 10mpg increase untill the computer compensated(about 3/4 of a tank) and got worse. You have to trick the O2 system to make it work. I just got my JK and won't put one on until we get the Contour figured out. We built the Smacks Generator which will fit in front of the engine fine if the radiator heat doesn't cause it to overheat.

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post #7 of 20 Old 08-06-2008, 06:26 AM Thread Starter
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My friends an I have built 2. One is on a Dodge 2500 cummins and the other is on a Ford Contour. The Dodge saw a 2mpg increase and the Contour saw a 10mpg increase untill the computer compensated(about 3/4 of a tank) and got worse. You have to trick the O2 system to make it work. I just got my JK and won't put one on until we get the Contour figured out. We built the Smacks Generator which will fit in front of the engine fine if the radiator heat doesn't cause it to overheat.
Thank you for some inside information. I like to hear first hand from someone that actually tried it.
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post #8 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 12:34 PM
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I haven't tried it myself, but I spoke to the CFO of ProMotorsGreen today and saw their system installed on a vehicle. The difference in their system is that it includes a computer that works with the factory computer to keep it from compensating and making the mileage worse.
The concept sounds feasable, and their website (www.promotorsgreen.com)seems to explain it well but the science is over my head.
The reason I came into contact with him is that I work for a large road service organization that will remain nameless. Their company wants us to do an independant study on it. I kicked it to our automotive research guys to see if they want to take it on or not. But the fact that they are seeking independant and impartial verification from a respected organization says something.
Again, I can't vouch for it as I have not tried it and the science is over my head.

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post #9 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 01:06 PM
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The concept sounds feasable, and their website www.promotorsgreen.com
That is one of the web sites that made me cynical of the whole thing. It is one of many web sites selling the Dennis Lee / Better World Industries / United Community Services of America Hydro Assist Fuel Cell.

UCSofA ask What could the Body of Christ do with Billions of dollars a year to evangelize and re-instate Christian values in America? prominently on their web site, which is fine, but makes me wonder a little...

There are literally 100's of web sites selling this exact same Hydro Assist Fuel Cell, which are part of a UCSofA/BWT MLM scheme. Which makes me very cynical of their product and claims, especially with the large amount of religion thrown in and their plan to give everyone free electricity at home with no cost, etc

http://www.ucsofa.com/
http://www.bwanetwork.com/

Call me a cynic, but I'm not rushing out to give my money to their MLM scheme.
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post #10 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 03:19 PM
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....to give everyone free electricity at home with no cost, etc
Tesla had this idea, didn't he?

/jl

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post #11 of 20 Old 08-07-2008, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PhilD View Post
That is one of the web sites that made me cynical of the whole thing. It is one of many web sites selling the Dennis Lee / Better World Industries / United Community Services of America Hydro Assist Fuel Cell.

UCSofA ask What could the Body of Christ do with Billions of dollars a year to evangelize and re-instate Christian values in America? prominently on their web site, which is fine, but makes me wonder a little...

There are literally 100's of web sites selling this exact same Hydro Assist Fuel Cell, which are part of a UCSofA/BWT MLM scheme. Which makes me very cynical of their product and claims, especially with the large amount of religion thrown in and their plan to give everyone free electricity at home with no cost, etc

http://www.ucsofa.com/
http://www.bwanetwork.com/

Call me a cynic, but I'm not rushing out to give my money to their MLM scheme.
I don't see any link from promotorsgreen to any of the organizations that you mention. Did I miss something? Also in talking with him, there was no mention of any MLM/pyramid operation. He did mention that they had partnered with 4wheel parts to sell, install and service these units. From what I read on their site and from talking with him (Frank Colson btw) is that they designed a computer that comes with their system that works with your factory on board computer. Again, I don't have any first hand info other than meeting and talking with this guy by chance, but it seems that this is a different animal than the groups that you cite. The fact that they are seeking independent verification from a very reputable organization speaks well for them. I guess time will tell.

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post #12 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 03:51 AM
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I know a guy who did it and he got worse mpg afterwards. He spent some time researching it further and came to the conclusion he needed to mess with the O2 sensors and computer to actually start seeing any benefit.
Any benefit he may see from messing with the O2 sensors could only come from leaning out the Air Fuel ratio which would have a detrimental effect on engine life.

It's impossible to see Mileage improvements from HHO with onboard generation. The Energy it takes to seperate a water molecule into seperate hydrogen and oxygen atoms is the exact same as is released when the two hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom combine. Therefore, at best, the most amount of power we could make would be just enough to make the same amount of HHO as we just burned. But in reality we could never make that much due to not having a 100% efficient engine, we lose available power due to friction, and a frictionless engine is impossible to build.

It is however possible to use water to increase the power output of an engine. It's called Water injection. And it's due to the amount of energy required for Hydrogen to change thermal states. Basically as water is injected into the intake air it absorbs energy from the air (raising its temprature and lowering the temprature of the air). The effect is like putting an intercooler on an forced air induction engine. This lower temprature of the combustion gasses (Air, Fuel, & Water) allows for higher compression, and later ignition, resulting in an increase in efficiency of the engine, and thus a higher power output. It also steam cleans the engine resulting in almost no power robbing carbon build-up.
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post #13 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 06:14 AM
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I don't see any link from promotorsgreen to any of the organizations that you mention. Did I miss something?
Just look at the product he's selling?

http://www.promotorsgreen.com/

It is the same MLM product as marketed by BWA;

http://www.bwanetwork.com/engine.htm

The same product is available all over the place and is definitely MLM.
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post #14 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 06:23 AM
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they designed a computer that comes with their system that works with your factory on board computer.
He didn't design anything, it is a kit available from BWA, he's just re-selling it.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, although DEnd makes some very good points, but the whole MLM feel of the industry, and in particular the HAFC product, leaves me somewhat cynical. When I hear about other people claiming to have designed a MLM product themselves, I do not take them seriously and can only laugh at their credibility.
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post #15 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 06:23 AM
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Tesla had this idea, didn't he?
They refer to him often actually.
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post #16 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 02:09 PM
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It is however possible to use water to increase the power output of an engine. It's called Water injection. And it's due to the amount of energy required for Hydrogen to change thermal states. Basically as water is injected into the intake air it absorbs energy from the air (raising its temprature and lowering the temprature of the air). The effect is like putting an intercooler on an forced air induction engine. This lower temprature of the combustion gasses (Air, Fuel, & Water) allows for higher compression, and later ignition, resulting in an increase in efficiency of the engine, and thus a higher power output. It also steam cleans the engine resulting in almost no power robbing carbon build-up.

I remember reading about this in CarCraft back in the late 70's. They had a DIY project on a high compression Chevy small block (what else). Very simple, they used a windshield washer pump, tubing, a reservoir, a couple of vacuum switches (set at different Hg) and some sort of metering jet.

According to the article they were able to advance the timing some and get more power out of the motor. In the winter they suggested an alcohol/water mix to prevent freezing.

Since we can't control the timing (yet) I wonder how well this would work with the 3.8?

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post #17 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 02:13 PM
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They refer to him often actually.
Tesla was an efn genius. Most of his research was "confiscated by the authorities" when he died. Too bad, he was WAY ahead of his time.

/jl

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post #18 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by DEnd View Post
Any benefit he may see from messing with the O2 sensors could only come from leaning out the Air Fuel ratio which would have a detrimental effect on engine life.

It's impossible to see Mileage improvements from HHO with onboard generation. The Energy it takes to seperate a water molecule into seperate hydrogen and oxygen atoms is the exact same as is released when the two hydrogen atoms and the oxygen atom combine. Therefore, at best, the most amount of power we could make would be just enough to make the same amount of HHO as we just burned. But in reality we could never make that much due to not having a 100% efficient engine, we lose available power due to friction, and a frictionless engine is impossible to build.............
This is something that has been bugging me since the first time I heard it, and it's been many now. If you were using power derived directly from the engine to create the gas I guess this makes sense.

But since you are using electricity from the alternator/battery how is this HHO generator not just another accessory? Like auxillary lights, etc. Or does it tax the electrical system to the point it actually effects the fuel mileage? I just don't get it. Please explain.

I have also read there isn't sufficient power from the electrical system to generate enough to be effective. I guess time will tell. I've lived long enough to know the old saying is right "If it's too good to be true, it probably is!" It's just too bad there's a snake oil salesman on every corner trying to separate us from our money.

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post #19 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 09:25 PM
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This is something that has been bugging me since the first time I heard it, and it's been many now. If you were using power derived directly from the engine to create the gas I guess this makes sense.

But since you are using electricity from the alternator/battery how is this HHO generator not just another accessory? Like auxillary lights, etc. Or does it tax the electrical system to the point it actually effects the fuel mileage? I just don't get it. Please explain.

I have also read there isn't sufficient power from the electrical system to generate enough to be effective. I guess time will tell. I've lived long enough to know the old saying is right "If it's too good to be true, it probably is!" It's just too bad there's a snake oil salesman on every corner trying to separate us from our money.
Electricity from the alternator/battery is derived directly from the engine, and there are efficiency losses in the alternator, wiring and even battery.

Though there is a tax on the electrical system, the main waste is in the engine itself. A good engine is only something like 25-30% efficient. Meaning of the potential energy in a fuel only ~25% of it actually goes to powering the vehicle (and accessories). So automatically 75% of the power produced from the HH0 is lost to engine inefficiencies. in order to get a net gain from HHO you would have to be able to capture and use about 95% of the potential energy in the HHO. The efficiency enhaments that HHO has on a Gas (or diesel) engine (which should be very similar to water) would then be seen in the output of the engine.

Last edited by DEnd; 08-08-2008 at 09:29 PM.
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post #20 of 20 Old 08-08-2008, 09:27 PM
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He didn't design anything, it is a kit available from BWA, he's just re-selling it.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, although DEnd makes some very good points, but the whole MLM feel of the industry, and in particular the HAFC product, leaves me somewhat cynical. When I hear about other people claiming to have designed a MLM product themselves, I do not take them seriously and can only laugh at their credibility.
It will be interesting to see if our guys even agree to look at this. This isn't their first rodeo and they can smell a hack a mile away.

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