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post #1 of 27 Old 04-25-2015, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Stressed Out Stability Control System Today - is there a "rescue" feature from Jeep?

Just some background before I post my question. My main passion for the last 35 years has been desert racing. Jeeps are kind of a side attraction for me. I still race some, in fact, I'm signed up for a National Hare & Hound Desert Race next Saturday in my UTV. I've raced three different vehicle classes over the years.

Anyway, I did some exploring today in the Jeep, in the mountains of southeast Nevada. I got snowed out at high elevation and had to come back down to the high desert (5000 feet elevation) to get out of the snow. When I got back down to the main dirt road heading north-south my fuel situation limited which way I could go. If I went south to the highway there would not be a fuel station close enough to refuel before running out. So I had to go north, which was away from home, but I could gas up in Garrison, NV, and then return home. A few miles after turning north I see a sign that says "Garrison 66 miles", and I knew I had enough fuel to make it. The road was a typical desert road with long straights, sweeping turns, and a few wash crossings that made for big G-outs. After a few miles I start picking up the speed a little more, and then a little more. Eventually I'm hitting 70 on the straights, and sliding through the turns some. The Electronic Stability Program (ESP) is coming on for pretty much every turn, but it isn't interfering too badly, and I'm having a good time. I am noticing that the Jeep is working really good. Its not a race vehicle, but the Fox 2.0 shocks are working awesome for this type of driving. The Toyo M/T tires are working very well, with a smooth transition from grip to slipping that is easy to control. The bumpstops are set perfectly, and when the suspension is bottomed hard on a G-out the tires very very slightly buzz the fenders. Couldn't ask for a better set up for a basic exploring Jeep.

Then I enter a turn a little hotter than the rest. I get on the brakes a little harder than I normally would, then decide I'm going to have to drift this turn instead of brake for it, and go to get back on the gas. All of this takes about a half second if you've been doing this for a few decades. But, ... the ESP system had gone into full panic mode, far far more aggressively than its ever done before. And I realize that except for the steering wheel I have no control over the vehicle at all. I made it through the turn, but with a different method than I planned on. The ESP can apply brakes to just one side of the vehicle, which I obviously cannot do.

As I exit the turn and get back on the gas, I'm thinking to myself that I need to back it down a bit, and I notice that the Sirius radio had gone silent. I had been listening to a nice Patty Loveless song on Prime Country, and it stopped. The radio then starts speaking to me, and says "If this has been a roll-over, or you need emergency towing service please press such and such button to set up this service, or just speak directly into the radio. I didn't catch what button it said to press. I looked at the radio and the display says "VOICE" and there is a microphone symbol after the word, and everything is quiet, as if the radio is waiting for me to speak.

Being the conspiracy theorist that I am, I didn't want someone somewhere that is connected to a satellite listening to me. So I turned off the radio, and then turned it back on again, and it was back on Prime Country again, and the Patty Loveless song was ending.

Then I thought, why didn't I check this out. What is this "emergency towing service" that it was talking about? Is it satellite based, or cell phone based like On Star? Is this a service that could save your butt if you got into trouble in the middle of nowhere where there is no cell phone service? How do you go about activating it? And how much does it cost? Is it a Jeep based service, or do I need to stay subscribed to Sirius to use it?

Sorry for the novel, but it was one of those you had to be there moments. I think I made my ESP think I rolled my Jeep.

2017 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon; 35s - no lift, Warn 9.5 XP-S, ARB Twin Air, SPOD
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk (wife's Jeep)
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Megacab 4x4; 6.7 CTD, Aisen, AEV Prospector conversion; 37s, 4.10s, Warn 16.5K

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post #2 of 27 Old 04-25-2015, 08:40 PM
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Stressed Out Stability Control System Today - is there a "rescue" feature from Jeep?

I am Pretty sure it is cell phone based through a blue tooth connection between your U-Connect and personal cell phone. I can call road side assistance and emergency services with one touch of the voice button you described and giving the command "emergency" for 911 or towing for Chrysler road side assistance. The road side assistance number is pre-programmed in to the head unit but the emergency number you have to program yourself. Hope This Helps
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post #3 of 27 Old 04-25-2015, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, if it is cell phone based then it doesn't do any good. There is no cell phone service in most of the places I go exploring. I was hoping it had something to do with Sirius.

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2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk (wife's Jeep)
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Megacab 4x4; 6.7 CTD, Aisen, AEV Prospector conversion; 37s, 4.10s, Warn 16.5K
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post #4 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 02:52 AM
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Unfortunately, transmitting a signal up to a satellite is a lot more complex than receiving one, so there is no way implement that in the Jeep's radio is a cost effective way.

That said, your ECU probably logged it as an accident in it's memory.
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post #5 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 11:23 AM
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Sorry for the hijack but are there any computer gurus who know how to eradicate the ESC? I know it supposedly can be turned off but it ain't so; with the ESC off light on my 2013 JK still grabbed the brakes the other day during some high speed sliding.
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post #6 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 02:47 PM
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The bullydog 40417 programmer will turn it off completely...it shows several lights on the dash (e-brake, ABS, traction control and something else) in this mode but makes the drive much more interesting.

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post #7 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 03:05 PM
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So the nanny-state systems nearly throw you off the road and then ask if you need their assistance. Lovely.

I can't stand the interference...I'd live with idiot lights just to get rid of it all.
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post #8 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 03:11 PM
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Pretty sure the steering wheel dance turns off everything but abs.
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post #9 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 04:18 PM Thread Starter
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The last I checked the steering wheel dance didn't work on 2013 and newer Jeeps. It doesn't work on my 2014.

Some people are figuring this out though. Like someone posted, Bullydog has a programmer that deactivates it. And there is a really good off road shop about 50 miles from where I live that I hear has figured out how to deactivate the nanny systems. They install a switch anywhere you want, and when you flip the switch the whole system stays deactivated until you flip the switch back again. I don't know if their system causes the dash lights to come on like the Bullydog tuner does, or not. I'm going to check into it though. I think if you know how to drive the nanny systems are more dangerous than they are a benefit.

2017 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon; 35s - no lift, Warn 9.5 XP-S, ARB Twin Air, SPOD
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk (wife's Jeep)
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Megacab 4x4; 6.7 CTD, Aisen, AEV Prospector conversion; 37s, 4.10s, Warn 16.5K
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post #10 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOPWR2U View Post
The last I checked the steering wheel dance didn't work on 2013 and newer Jeeps. It doesn't work on my 2014.

Some people are figuring this out though. Like someone posted, Bullydog has a programmer that deactivates it. And there is a really good off road shop about 50 miles from where I live that I hear has figured out how to deactivate the nanny systems. They install a switch anywhere you want, and when you flip the switch the whole system stays deactivated until you flip the switch back again. I don't know if their system causes the dash lights to come on like the Bullydog tuner does, or not. I'm going to check into it though. I think if you know how to drive the nanny systems are more dangerous than they are a benefit.
Steering wheel dance doesn't work on 2012+
If you push and hold the button for 5 seconds in 4hi it will disable it to the same degree it automatically does in 4lo (it will even scroll the same thing on your odometer). Not sure exactly what it disables and it is still annoying, just to a much lesser degree.

I forget exactly which wire but it runs under the console. I thought It was purple/blue but dont hold me to it. If you hook it to a switch you can disable it whenever you want. I found the info on another Jeep forum so the info is out there. I never did it to mine but I really hate dealing with it too. I come from a similar background as you and do as much fast desert stuff as I crawl.
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post #11 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 07:16 PM
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I know if you know how to drive the nanny systems are more dangerous than they are a benefit.
FIFY
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post #12 of 27 Old 04-26-2015, 11:37 PM
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I would love to here more about the shop if you don't mind sharing.
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post #13 of 27 Old 04-27-2015, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOPWR2U View Post
The last I checked the steering wheel dance didn't work on 2013 and newer Jeeps. It doesn't work on my 2014.

Some people are figuring this out though. Like someone posted, Bullydog has a programmer that deactivates it. And there is a really good off road shop about 50 miles from where I live that I hear has figured out how to deactivate the nanny systems. They install a switch anywhere you want, and when you flip the switch the whole system stays deactivated until you flip the switch back again. I don't know if their system causes the dash lights to come on like the Bullydog tuner does, or not. I'm going to check into it though. I think if you know how to drive the nanny systems are more dangerous than they are a benefit.
The "Steering wheel dance" does NOT work on 2013. Believe me, I've tried it with high hopes many times! There is a YouTube video that explains what wire to cut and splice into a switch to disable everything. Yes, the dash lights do illuminate. As far as the nanny functions being dangerous if you know how to drive, I've said this exact thing several times and could not agree with you more. I like to engage in some spirited driving every now and again as well, and these electronic baby-sitters make the vehicle handle so erroneously, it's frankly scary as hell! I expect the vehicle to perform one way, but the computer decides to "fix" it and does something I can't predict!

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post #14 of 27 Old 04-27-2015, 06:12 AM
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re:Stressed Out Stability Control System Today - is there a "rescue" feature from Jee

I cannot comment on the Satellite salvation OnStar thing or whatever...I am technologically savvy - I develop software for a Microsoft partner-but I only use satellite Sirus for tunes and have never generated a 'roll-over emergency response from my Wrangler Unlimited..but if I were 'Jeep Speed emulating' in that manner I would have pulled my J6 fuse prior to taking the first high speed turn "wheels out" ala Duke Boys in my '11 JKUs, just dealing with the xmas tree dashboard leds. Freedom from the TIPM until back on the highway.


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post #15 of 27 Old 04-27-2015, 11:19 AM
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Does anyone know if pulling the J6 fuse deactivates the ESC/ABS on a 2013 & up JK?
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post #16 of 27 Old 04-27-2015, 08:07 PM
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You may not know that in many vehicles the abs module acts as a flight recorder of sorts, they store data before and after an event in a loopless cycle. Some abs modules transmit data directly to the manufacturer via satellite.

Some systems like OnStar transmit a lot of information. Insurance companies have CDR's, crash data retrieval experts. After a incident CDR's will gather the modules and extract the data. They will use the data for analysis and possibly against you.

Recently a Nevada law enforcement officer was clocked at over 140 mph when he rear ended a car resulting in multiple fatalities, the data recording's were analyzed by Ford to determine the circumstances.

There is a good chance Chrysler knows about your event and possible reckless driving, I hate big brother but it is built into our vehicles.

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post #17 of 27 Old 04-27-2015, 09:18 PM
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Not sure you're interested, but this is related to one of your questions...

There are two-way satellite positioning and messaging systems the can be used when you're out in the middle of nowhere. These systems can transmit your position up to orbiting satellites (so others can know where you are), as well as send messages ("I'm ok." or "I'm not OK, send my friends"), and engage your rescue insurance ("I'm injured, come get me").

I have the Spot GPS Messenger which can do all of this.
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post #18 of 27 Old 05-04-2015, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Seems we have two schools of thought in this thread.

Wrangler 2016, and others say that it is much more complicated to transmit to a satellite than it is to receive from one, and that if communication were done, it would be cell phone based. I know that communication with On Star is cell phone based, because I asked them when they wanted me to renew my service on a GM vehicle. I also agree with him that my ECM has likely logged this "event". Kind of sad really, because there was no "event", or at least there wouldn't have been one if the nanny systems would have let me do the driving.

Motech says that our systems (On Star in particular) communicate with, and inform GM, and presumably Chrysler for our vehicles, if there is an event. Would this communication be satellite based, cell phone based, or just from a dealer interrogating our ECM when the vehicle is brought in for service? If cell phone based, there was no cell phone service where this happened. And I do my own service on my Jeep, so hopefully the ECM will never be interrogated.

I personally dislike the nanny systems more with each experience I have with them. I am going to look into ways to disable them completely.

Oh, and as for the desert race I mentioned I would be running in my UTV, it happened two days ago, and went off without a hitch. I can't emphasize enough how nice it is to be able to buy a vehicle (Polaris Rzr XP 1000 Fox Edition in my case), and not have to do one single thing to it to have such fantastic off road performance. Buy it, take it straight off the showroom floor to a local desert race, flog the crap out of it, have a good time, and nothing breaks. It's like a dirt bike with four wheels and a cage. Sorry to get off topic.

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post #19 of 27 Old 05-05-2015, 05:06 AM
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Onstar uses cellular data for transmission/reception. It's how Onstar sends your car unlock codes, turns it into "stolen mode" etc.

We don't have that in our jeeps. Data is recorded onboard, and there's no data transmission unless it's physically hooked up to a data device by the manufacturer or one of its cronies. It can control your phone in a limited fashion through bluetooth, as well as start calls for you, but that's it.

I keep data turned off on my cellphone as a rule, since I have a low bandwidth cap and it's my backup internet for work should my house internet go down.... and when things want to send data, either via bluetooth or otherwise, they cause a popup asking me to enable data. I've driven like you have and had the same warning, MOPWR2U... and it didn't try to TX any data, although it did ask if I needed to call a cab or someone who cared. I'm not worried about it.
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post #20 of 27 Old 05-06-2015, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
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Buy it, take it straight off the showroom floor to a local desert race, flog the crap out of it, have a good time, and nothing breaks.
apparently that is just not a "jeep thing"
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post #21 of 27 Old 05-06-2015, 06:42 PM
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Unfortunately, transmitting a signal up to a satellite is a lot more complex than receiving one, so there is no way implement that in the Jeep's radio is a cost effective way.

That said, your ECU probably logged it as an accident in it's memory.
Being both Hughes net and Via Sat certified I can assure you I tis a very touchy thing with LOS (Line of Sight) needing to be locked on to a specific sat to transmit to it. The window when doing installs from no signal to max signal and back to no signal is about a 2" sweep of the antenna. The vertical is far tighter then that. With Sat TV I have a pretty decent window where I can still have functional TV service just not optimal signal. On the Transmit side of things dish slightly out of wack and you get nothing. Basically it is near undoable for something mobile like a vehicle. Something such as a sat phone operates a little different but at the same time must set inside of a spot beam to work that is why you end up with a lot of dead spaces on Sat phone service.
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post #22 of 27 Old 05-06-2015, 08:32 PM
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Being both Hughes net and Via Sat certified I can assure you I tis a very touchy thing with LOS (Line of Sight) needing to be locked on to a specific sat to transmit to it. The window when doing installs from no signal to max signal and back to no signal is about a 2" sweep of the antenna. The vertical is far tighter then that. With Sat TV I have a pretty decent window where I can still have functional TV service just not optimal signal. On the Transmit side of things dish slightly out of wack and you get nothing. Basically it is near undoable for something mobile like a vehicle. Something such as a sat phone operates a little different but at the same time must set inside of a spot beam to work that is why you end up with a lot of dead spaces on Sat phone service.
It's not near undoable, it just requires stuff that TYPICALLY is noticable... there are covert satcom antennas. Zero dead space within coverage areas with one of these bad boys. This is what you need if you want to TX out of a vehicle reliably... mind you it's a foot and a half or so across at the bar's and about a foot tall and needs to be mounted on a metal face for best performance.
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post #23 of 27 Old 05-18-2015, 07:30 PM
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I'd like to remove this annoyance on my 2012 as well. At times I like the system. Other times it's scared the hell out of me. A few other times I've called and made a total ass of myself to the dealer. I'd LIKE a way to turn the system ALL THE WAY OFF but Jeep wants nothing to do with turning it off for liability/insurance/govt reasons

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post #24 of 27 Old 05-18-2015, 08:31 PM Thread Starter
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I find it interesting that the Wrangler ESP is way more intrusive than the Grand Cherokee system is. Two days ago I drove to Las Vegas and bought a motorcycle (2014 Honda Valkyrie) and drove the wife's 2014 Grand Cherokee, and towed my 18' tilt bed auto transport trailer that I usually use behind the Ram pickup to trailer my jeep, to trailer the motorcycle home with. When I took the exit from highway 95 to I-15 I didn't realize there was such a sharp turn on the exit ramp. I was looking in the mirror to make sure the motorcycle was trailering okay, and when I looked forward I was faced with a 40 mph turn, right in front of me. I got on the brakes and did a controlled four wheel skid the whole way around the turn, with 18' trailer in tow. There was a whole lot of tire squealing going on, and other than my passenger crapping his pants, it was uneventful otherwise. NOT ONE PEEP from the 2014 Grand Cherokee's ESP. If I would have done that with my 2014 Wrangler the ESP would have gone into full panic mode again.

2017 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon Recon; 35s - no lift, Warn 9.5 XP-S, ARB Twin Air, SPOD
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Trailhawk (wife's Jeep)
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 Megacab 4x4; 6.7 CTD, Aisen, AEV Prospector conversion; 37s, 4.10s, Warn 16.5K

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post #25 of 27 Old 05-18-2015, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
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I find it interesting that the Wrangler ESP is way more intrusive than the Grand Cherokee system is. Two days ago I drove to Las Vegas and bought a motorcycle (2014 Honda Valkyrie) and drove the wife's 2014 Grand Cherokee, and towed my 18' tilt bed auto transport trailer that I usually use behind the Ram pickup to trailer my jeep, to trailer the motorcycle home with. When I took the exit from highway 95 to I-15 I didn't realize there was such a sharp turn on the exit ramp. I was looking in the mirror to make sure the motorcycle was trailering okay, and when I looked forward I was faced with a 40 mph turn, right in front of me. I got on the brakes and did a controlled four wheel skid the whole way around the turn, with 18' trailer in tow. There was a whole lot of tire squealing going on, and other than my passenger crapping his pants, it was uneventful otherwise. NOT ONE PEEP from the 2014 Grand Cherokee's ESP. If I would have done that with my 2014 Wrangler the ESP would have gone into full panic mode again.
I wonder if it's the lift that could be part of the issue? While I feel I have a "mild" lift, who knows what the big brother insurance companies dictate to our elected legislators to put into law stuff they have no idea about?

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