Synergy Tie Rod w/ TRE Low Misalignment Dust Boots - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
 
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-24-2015, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Synergy Tie Rod w/ TRE Low Misalignment Dust Boots

anyone running a synergy tie rod with their low misalignment dust boots? just installed this recently and went wheelin' this weekend in the mud. i was apprehensive about how these boots were going to protect the joint, and they apparently don't. i'm waiting to hear back from synergy on e-mail, but see attached pictures of the results after wheeling. there was a bunch of mud, water, and grit mixed down in the joint with the grease. anyone else have experience running these dust boots? did you see similar results letting gunk in? i mean, this seems like what would happen since there is not a great seal on the boot by the stud. any comments welcome.
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-24-2015, 06:06 PM
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Are you running hydro assist steering?

If not, why are you running the low mis-allignment boots?

If yes, I will be interested to hear what Synergy says.
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post #3 of 21 Old 03-24-2015, 06:33 PM
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Regardless of whether he is running hydro assist or not the boots should not leak IMO. Mine did the same thing and they were seated properly against the TRE. The issue I see with mine is that the hole in the boot is too big and doesnt seal against the tapered part of the TRE. I took mine off, threw them across the garage, spent an hour cleaning shit out of the groove in my brand new TRE's and put the regular boots on.

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post #4 of 21 Old 03-24-2015, 09:10 PM
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Pump new grease into it and flush it out. The joint is not going to wear overnight.

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post #5 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks. I am not running hydro assist, but I'm not sure why that would matter in this boot allowing crap to get in there or not. Maybe these boots are for mall crawling only.
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post #6 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resharp001 View Post
Thanks. I am not running hydro assist, but I'm not sure why that would matter in this boot allowing crap to get in there or not. Maybe these boots are for mall crawling only.
My question on that was because these boots are specifically intended for guys running hydro steering so the tie rod doesnt flop which can screw up your steering. If you arent running hydro, I dont understand why you are running these vs. the standard boots.

If I were you I would go back to the standard boots and call it a day.

I agree thought that these boots shouldnt have an issue with sealing.
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post #7 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
. . . these boots are specifically intended for guys running hydro steering so the tie rod doesnt flop which can screw up your steering.
Huh? I must disagree, Sir!
This cures droopy (tie) rod and keeps it up and level, but I never saw any claims that it was specifically for hydro. assist.
I added these to gain some rock clearance and because it looks better, but I didn't need it to cure tie rod rotation from my ram.
If your hydro. assist ram is rotating your tie rod, these babies will yield to the thousands of pounds of force acting on them!
The fix for tie rod rotation is to get your ram parallel to your tie rod. Worked like a charm for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
If you arent running hydro, I dont understand why you are running these vs. the standard boots.
One reason would be to get the tie rod another inch away from the hungry granite hobgoblins lurking below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
I agree thought that these boots shouldnt have an issue with sealing.
Agree. Suggest greasing or at least checking all greasable joints after playing U-boat commander or bog-master.

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post #8 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ExWrench View Post
[COLOR="Lime"]Huh? I must disagree, Sir!
This cures droopy (tie) rod and keeps it up and level, but I never saw any claims that it was specifically for hydro. assist.
I added these to gain some rock clearance and because it looks better, but I didn't need it to cure tie rod rotation from my ram.
If your hydro. assist ram is rotating your tie rod, these babies will yield to the thousands of pounds of force acting on them!
The fix for tie rod rotation is to get your ram parallel to your tie rod. Worked like a charm for me.



One reason would be to get the tie rod another inch away from the hungry granite hobgoblins lurking below.
Everything I read about these were that they were mainly intended for guys running hydro assist due to the ram causing the tie rod to flop and then the steering got wonky.

I dont see how these would get the tie rod up any higher unless they physically hold it up higher vs the standard boot being allowed to compress.
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post #9 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
Everything I read about these were that they were mainly intended for guys running hydro assist due to the ram causing the tie rod to flop and then the steering got wonky.
Internet knowledge is free, and sometimes it's worth every penny.
As far as I know, they're not intended to be a band-aid for sub-optimal ram placement, but I'm sure they get used for that.
Hell, maybe they are for that, but my money's on urethane compressing much quicker than hydraulic oil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
I dont see how these would get the tie rod up any higher unless they physically hold it up higher vs the standard boot being allowed to compress.
That's Ed Zachary what they do, they just keep the rod ends running level so the tie rod doesn't droop.
It's only ~an inch, but 1" is all you gain going from 33s-->35s or 35s-->37s (except KM2s - divide by 2 for KM2 gains )

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post #10 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ExWrench View Post

It's only ~an inch, but 1" is all you gain going from 33s-->35s or 35s-->37s (except KM2s - divide by 2 for KM2 gains )
Got that right, my 35" KM2's on an 8" rim come out to 33.6" at 37 PSI with the weight of a 2dr JK on them.

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post #11 of 21 Old 03-25-2015, 10:30 PM
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Got that right, my 35" KM2's on an 8" rim come out to 33.6" at 37 PSI with the weight of a 2dr JK on them.
Wow, my kidneys hurt just reading that. Try dropping to 26-28 psi and tell me it doesn't ride 10 times better.
With a boatload of armor and crap, maybe 30-32 psi tops. <-- Internet guess (for what it's worth) - chalk test to be sure.
If you're over-inflated for MPG reasons, cool, but I sacrifice MPG for ride quality, even tread wear, and traction.


Aww, crap . . . my 3rd post in this thread, I should respond on OP's topic:

resharp001,
  • I personally don't see that your pictures and story agree with each other 100%
  • Not saying I'm right, but it looks like there's more or less to the story (or you're trolling?)
  • In your pics, there's dirt everywhere - including on the lip where the boots I have fit like a glove
  • To me, it looks like the Synergy boots were not installed, or not correctly, or ???
  • If that much crap got in without pressure, did you have 'em full of heavy grease to begin with?
  • When you swapped to these boots, did you maybe not add grease?
  • If you had adequate grease beforehand, a quick shot afterward should purge any water and dirty grease
  • If you wanna' say these boots are just for mall crawlers, have fun with that
  • If I keep typin', I'ma be late to slide my hoopty on over to Target an' get mah mall flex on, yo! Peace out.

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post #12 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 07:18 AM Thread Starter
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Aww, crap . . . my 3rd post in this thread, I should respond on OP's topic:

resharp001,
  • I personally don't see that your pictures and story agree with each other 100%
  • Not saying I'm right, but it looks like there's more or less to the story (or you're trolling?)
  • In your pics, there's dirt everywhere - including on the lip where the boots I have fit like a glove
  • To me, it looks like the Synergy boots were not installed, or not correctly, or ???
  • If that much crap got in without pressure, did you have 'em full of heavy grease to begin with?
  • When you swapped to these boots, did you maybe not add grease?
  • If you had adequate grease beforehand, a quick shot afterward should purge any water and dirty grease
  • If you wanna' say these boots are just for mall crawlers, have fun with that
  • If I keep typin', I'ma be late to slide my hoopty on over to Target an' get mah mall flex on, yo! Peace out.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

No, I'm not trolling. First off, I replaced my tie rod, and I just thought that in the process, I'd put these boots on in order to remove a little unnecessary slop in the tie rod movement. These seemed to make sense since the tie rod does not need that extra misalignment movement. On installation, the boots snapped right in to place. They were where they should have been and i would say they fit appropriately in the grove. I did not pack these things full of grease as the the tie rod came greased, and the instructions did not indicate to pack them full of grease, so maybe that is my error, but again, it was not specified. It was pretty muddy and wet out, so there's no doubt water/dirt infiltrated every place that it could have including getting around the ridge where the boots snap in place on the TRE. Last night I removed the tie rod, took about an hour to clean and pump grease through the ends. I think they are as clean as I can get them. I installed the normal boots and greased appropriately.

Should these boots have really been packed full of grease just to fill up the space? It seems that they don'd really seal around the stud so you'd still get mud/water inside unless you packed so much grease it's flowing out the top by the stud. So, maybe I am to blame. I would have just thought instructions would have clearly stated that.
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post #13 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 07:34 AM Thread Starter
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This is not a great picture, but this is what it looked like installed originally. I realize there is a huge shadow right where you really need the light to see the boot . I emailed Synergy about the gap there between the knuckle and the boot, and they said it was completely normal. As long as the castle bolt was torqued to 50 ft lbs per spec, and that they had been seeing variances in how the JK knuckles were manufactured.
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post #14 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 08:11 AM
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OK, now I'm pickin' up what you're layin' down. Hope you didn't think I was messing with you before.
Maybe these boots are almost a good idea for some folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by resharp001 View Post
That's good, honest immersion, and if you had to saw your wheels side-side to grab a rut to pull through, you're moving the joints around a good bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by resharp001 View Post
This is not a great picture, but this is what it looked like installed originally. I realize there is a huge shadow right where you really need the light to see the boot . I emailed Synergy about the gap there between the knuckle and the boot, and they said it was completely normal. As long as the castle bolt was torqued to 50 ft lbs per spec, and that they had been seeing variances in how the JK knuckles were manufactured.

I'm running the steel outer shell on mine so maybe that's why they seem to have a death-grip on my TREs.
That steel shell may also give enough compression for mine to seal around the ball stud, but thanks to you I won't assume this.
Looks like they don't seal great without the steel shells, and I know SoK66 and others didn't have room to run 'em.
If you don't have room for the steel shells, it looks like standard boots are the far better option sealing-wise.

Filling 'em with grease would minimize mud/water intrusion, but if it's required for proper function, Synergy should call that out.
Thanks for raising this issue. Now I need to tear mine back apart and see if I'm destined to the same fate.
Pretty sure mine will go back on, either brim-full of grease or maybe with a bit of Right Stuff gasket goo around the stud.

Sorry you had such a nasty surprise. Thanks for the heads-up.

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post #15 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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yah, and that pic of the water was just scratching the surface. It was MUD-DEE out there! We typically steer clear of the mud and do more crawlin' type things, but in those conditions it's a take what you get type day. We were playing in the mud so much you may as well have gotten a handful of gooey crappy stuff and tried to smear it around every joint possible. That water pick was more like trying to clean it off! LOL.
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post #16 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 11:15 AM Thread Starter
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for the record, Synergy responded today with the following:

The gap you experienced on the one side was normal. If anything, it is an inconsistency on Jeepís part in reaming the knuckles. Small inconsistencies can produce noticeable differences when dealing with tapers. The difference in major and minor diameters may be thousandths of an inch, but there will be a visual difference in how deep that allows the TRE to seat. If you would like them to seat the same depth, that taper only has to be opened up a very small amount.

Grease is hydrophobic. If you are going to be doing any type of submersion, you should make sure anything you donít want water in to be packed with grease. It is common practice to grease joints afterwards as well to expel any water/debri that may have been able to creep in. This is very common with open joints such as Johnny Joints since they have no boots to help keep water out. There are several similar joints out there that all experience the same issue.

There should not be any damage to your tie rod ends. We built these to take this kind of abuse. When we were testing the first prototypes, we ran them for a year without boots all over the country including Petersonís Ultimate Adventure in the muddy pacific Northwest. After a year they were still tight with no slop. The metal on metal design is a much more durable solution than the stock and standard replacement joints with plastic internals.

Now, these boots are specifically designed for hydro assist applications. There really is no reason to run them if you do not have hydro assist. They donít offer any improvements over the standard TRE boots, and due to the harder compound, may end up sealing more poorly, especially if they are not fitting flush to the knuckle. They fix a problem with hydro assist where you will develop a large dead spot in your steering when changing directions due to the tie rod flopping over before the cylinder engages. This can also be remedied by proper cylinder alignment, but in many situations it is difficult to do this depending on mounting brackets and cylinder used. If you do not have this problem, you really donít need these boots.

If you are looking for Tie Rod ground clearance from these boots, it does not exist. The only solutions to improve ground clearance are Reid knuckles, larger tires, or a different axle altogether. If the Tie Rod is rotating down so the bend is no longer pointing forward, it is simply due to how the TREís are clocked on the bar. They can be re-clocked so that when the bar is rotated forward, the bend is pointed forward, not down. If you need clarification on this, let me know and Iíll try to better explain it.
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post #17 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 01:35 PM
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Pump new grease into it and flush it out. The joint is not going to wear overnight.

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post #18 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 01:48 PM
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Cool . . . now I know: these are intended primarily to help hydro assist users. Lurn sump'n new ever' day.

Oh well, I didn't need it for that because my ram's parallel, but I did gain most of an inch below the tie rod.

If mine seal up OK, I'll keep 'em. If not, I have the original Synergy TRE condoms somewhere in the garage.

Thanks for the follow-up!

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post #19 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Cool . . . now I know: these are intended primarily to help hydro assist users. Lurn sump'n new ever' day.

Oh well, I didn't need it for that because my ram's parallel, but I did gain most of an inch below the tie rod.

If mine seal up OK, I'll keep 'em. If not, I have the original Synergy TRE condoms somewhere in the garage.

Thanks for the follow-up!
yah, but I would still think they SHOULD work regardless of hydro assist or not. in the end, i'm not sure i'm satisfied with their response, but such is life.

i'm curious how you gained an inch of clearance? are you just referring to droop that you no longer have in the tie rod, of clearance right at the TRE?
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post #20 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resharp001 View Post
yah, but I would still think they SHOULD work regardless of hydro assist or not. in the end, i'm not sure i'm satisfied with their response, but such is life.

i'm curious how you gained an inch of clearance? are you just referring to droop that you no longer have in the tie rod, of clearance right at the TRE?
The answer synergy gave is less than stellar IMO...I spent nearly $400 on this tie rod setup thinking it was the cream of the crop, top of the line chromoly heat treated blah blah blah that I could eventually run hydro assist with so I went ahead and forked the extra $10 out for the nice low misalignment boots only to have them fill my nice TRE's with mud and grit...maybe they ran them for a year with no boots and they did just fine but that statement seems a little suspicious in my book. If these TRE's are really that BADASS then in 1 year when mine are still kicking ass I'll come back here and apologize...

P.S. I shouldnt have to buy a $110 reamer to make the boot seal correctly...the boot should seal against the tapered part of the TRE regardless of how Jeep manufactured the knuckle.

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Last edited by stretch79; 03-26-2015 at 02:15 PM.
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post #21 of 21 Old 03-26-2015, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by resharp001 View Post
i'm curious how you gained an inch of clearance? are you just referring to droop that you no longer have in the tie rod, of clearance right at the TRE?
Yeah, it's no phenomenal gain, and no "ground clearance" gain overall - I'm just referring to the middle of the rod not bowing down.
I said "~an inch" and "most of an inch", so don't hold me to any numbers (I didn't).
Zero gain at the TREs, "some unit of measure" gain in the middle of the tie rod. Nothing game-changing.

I just know there are a few rocks on which I've smacked axle tube rather than tie rod, and I prefer that.
Eliminating droopy rod doesn't let me go any further, just changes when and on what I (hang up, give up, back up) and look for a different line.

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