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post #1 of 22 Old 03-16-2015, 08:26 PM Thread Starter
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Engine Miss/Studder

Hi all, I am experiencing an engine miss/studder between shifts at 4000 rpm and above. It feels like it would if you hit the rev limiter but I'm no where close. This is in the engine and not the trans but I have no idea what it may be causing it. Now the trans does shift lazy at times and I do notice power loss on occasion. I have 21000 miles on the odometer and the only thing I have done is change the exhaust out to a Dynomax Evolution Competition Exhaust Cat Back System that exits before the rear axle. Any ideas of what to check?

Thanks
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post #2 of 22 Old 03-16-2015, 10:08 PM
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I get TCC shudder around 40MPH in overdrive. Try disabling overdrive and see if it goes away.

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post #3 of 22 Old 03-16-2015, 10:45 PM
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I ran that exhaust as one of my first mods and still run it ; JKs and their 3.6 or 3.8 V6 squirrel motors are finicky things , particularly when one changes a component as seemingly innocent as an exhaust , by - prouducts of that little altercation can become all to magnified as time + miles add up .
I digress on my knowledge of these motors as well as the venerable inline6 (i have both) & would start ( myself in your shoes ) by considering the stock air intake not allowing the air needed for the engine at higher RPMs . you running stock air filter ? that exhaust has slightly modified your back pressure of which the JK expects . Look to AFE and the drop in DryS OEM airfilter replacement as a nice partner for your 'comp' exhaust . Next , it is very common for exhaust manifolds to develop hairline cracks on these things ( I've seen 7000 mile JKs as well as 170,000 mile JKs experience this but your issues appears to be ignition firing cyclic or air flow stifling to me . Also clean the throttle body really well inside and out ( careful as she's plastic ; don't over torque the four bolts reinstalling ) and go ahead and check the OEM plug wires ( even tho it says change at 120k miles , the heat can burn a small pinhole I. the plug boot and cause irritating misfires way earlier in the life of the JK that you'd believe ) and while at it , ensure none of the actual spark plugs are less than tightened and allowing compression under load loss....
start with these and let us know what results you come up with . also, make darn sure you didn't wiggle any exhaust mani bolts loose on install of the exhaust and that your band clamp that sits just forward of the Dynomax can isn't showing carbon leaking out from not torquing the hell out of that with your impact wrench ....that caused a little pft-pft misfire on mine until I welded the thing ......
there's your starting points - also, there's half your Saturday !

it sounds like you need to let the ' suck and bang ' be as capable as the 'blow' if you follow .....good luck


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post #4 of 22 Old 03-16-2015, 11:42 PM
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Don't bother trying to look for an exhaust manifold (they are part of the heads) on that Pentastar motor.

I know I sound like a broken record on here but at 21k miles, you still have a warranty... Might try that. Also, is the engine throwing any codes?

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post #5 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 12:09 AM
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In checking for "leaking" plug wires or spark plug boots that Jeffrey is talking about it's better to run the engine at night in total darkness. Look for the arcs. Much easier to ID.

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post #6 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 04:45 AM
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The 2014 does not have exhaust manifolds or plug wires.

From what I have read the cracked manifold issue is specific to the 3.8l motor. That and it won't cause the kind of issue that you are seeing. The 3.6l motor can develope an audible tick inside the manifold part of the head. We should already have the updated heads.

the plug wires have been displaced by the individual coils that sit directly on top of each plug. Checking for a bad plug wire at night probably won't help much since you won't see boot failure because it's poked down in the head. With old-fanged plug wires, a scope was the only sure fire way that I found to detect a bad plug wire but that probably won't work on the pentaster since there are no plug wires to clamp the lead onto and take a reading.

A bad part with an open circuit or direct short to ground will throw a code. Parts operating out of range *may* throw a code.

You don't need an air filter to match the exhaust, though it is a good idea for other reasons. The exhaust does not make that much of a difference in flow and the stock air filter is not the cause of your issue unless it is excessively dirty. The stock filter and housing are retained in at least 2 super charger kits that I am aware of. It has adequate flow. You will see a benefit from swapping out the filter and housing but it will be a lot closer to redline (like above 5500 at WOT) than what you are talking about and it won't cause any kind of cutting out.

When a rev limiter kicks in, it usually cuts the injectors. Sometimes both injectors and spark. something to check that was not suggested would be injectors or the fuel filter for impeded flow. Maybe bad gas.

The kind of misfire you describe should be covered under warranty, even with the exhaust on.

Last edited by White13JKUR; 03-17-2015 at 04:48 AM.
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post #7 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 12:03 PM
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good points on the 3.6 & it's different , direct ignition wires + non old school plugs . my bad. However , fuel distribution or injection can be fine up-to 4000 rpm and then start to depressurize or something ? I didn't got that direction for him since he mentioned it was missing under load after he surpassed 4k on tach .. and I do think the OEM air filter is perfectly adequate for the Jeeps but did not address his issue w/ suggesting he upgrade . strike two on me . Throttle body or maybe head gasket not torqued to spec ? guess I won't make sggt on the Pentastar any more .....srry , op


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post #8 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 12:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks all for the replies. I want to make my self clear on my issue. The only time I feel or hear the studder is when I am accelerating above 4000 rpm and only when it shifts gears, no other times. The best way to describe the studder feel and sound is like a studder box on a dragster at the tree when he is revved up waiting on the light, hopefully some of you know what I mean.

The other issue is a loss of power and lazy shifting in the trans but neither of these are always present but they are present at the same time with each other when it occurs. The studder is there all the time whether I let the trans shift in auto or if i manually shift it.

I can go to the dealer on the studder but the lazy shifting and loss of power isn't always present for me to show them, maybe it is all tied together. The other reason I hate going to the dealer is well, it's the dealer and I don't always trust there answer and it is more throwing parts at it on multiple trips instead of fixing it the first time.

I am going to re-install my factory exhaust this weekend and if that doesn't solve the issue then I guess I will take it to the dealer.

Thanks
Scott
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post #9 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
However , fuel distribution or injection can be fine up-to 4000 rpm and then start to depressurize or something ?
Are you telling us or asking us?


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Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
I didn't got that direction for him since he mentioned it was missing under load
There was no mention of the issue occuring under load, whether that be the case or not.


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Originally Posted by j3ff3ry_j33p View Post
Throttle body or maybe head gasket not torqued to spec ? guess I won't make sggt on the Pentastar any more .....srry , op
LOL... No, no and probably a good idea.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rsjohnsn View Post
Thanks all for the replies. I want to make my self clear on my issue. The only time I feel or hear the studder is when I am accelerating above 4000 rpm and only when it shifts gears, no other times. The best way to describe the studder feel and sound is like a studder box on a dragster at the tree when he is revved up waiting on the light, hopefully some of you know what I mean.

The other issue is a loss of power and lazy shifting in the trans but neither of these are always present but they are present at the same time with each other when it occurs. The studder is there all the time whether I let the trans shift in auto or if i manually shift it.

I can go to the dealer on the studder but the lazy shifting and loss of power isn't always present for me to show them, maybe it is all tied together. The other reason I hate going to the dealer is well, it's the dealer and I don't always trust there answer and it is more throwing parts at it on multiple trips instead of fixing it the first time.

I am going to re-install my factory exhaust this weekend and if that doesn't solve the issue then I guess I will take it to the dealer.

Thanks
Scott
Take it in. It's really going to be difficult to diagnose over the internet unless it throws a code or you can see a hard failure. It is probably under warranty if it can be traced to a failed part, anyway. You should not have to take the exhaust off under the magnusson moss warranty act unless you think you might have left a chunk of soemtihng in the exhaust tubes or have other reason to believe that it is severely restricted. If it can be traced to bad gas, plugged fuel filter or bad work by someone else then they will charge you. I think even a failed spark plug should be covered, for example, if it failed electrically or materially (read: not "wear") and before the service interval. I don't think you should even be on the hook for the diagnosis cost either unless it is proven not to be a failed factory part. IIRC, warranty operations either include diagnosis time or there is a seprate (and payable to the dealer) warranty operation code for the diagnosis.

If it is happening under free-rev then its most likely in the engine. It does sound like something is cutting out, like a spark plug, ignition coil or a subset of injectors.

It is a good suggestion that curing one might cure the other.
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post #10 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 04:17 PM
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"asking us" since I was stating it as a poorly presented, informal question to your reply," So, it can operate fine except when it is rev'ed to greater than 4000 RPMs and is between shifts"

and, the very fact that he stated "... 4000 rpm and above" implied under load.

How correcting me is beneficial to the Op escapes me but you're the expert. I was just trying to help and tell him a few things that over a million miles in 3 Jeeps has brought my way; his issue is probably related to part covered under wrrnty or bad gas or something plugging the exhaust, like you said.


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post #11 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 05:00 PM
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Didn t mean to wedge any sand granules into your vijayjay but it looks like I managed to punt a couple in there. Sorry for that. Most of what you suggest aren't causes of the problem at hand. Should the OP listen and just go to the dealer and have them check all the things that you suggest?

The plug wire suggestion was actually a good one. It just needs to be read in terms of the latest technology. In other words, we can take it as a suggestion to check the coils and plug boots.

You can define load in any way that you want. When I did this professionally at a dealer back in the stone age and read "under load" on the repair order, we would take this to mean at WOT, in a higher gear and probably up a hill (every good tech knows a local test road). Well, that is how we would test for it. It is not necessity defined in terms of RPM because that could even mean just free revving, which may not always reveal the problem. The OP in this case says that it occurs during free rev too. The point is moot.

And in the end, I am guessing just as much as you are on this.
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post #12 of 22 Old 03-17-2015, 09:45 PM
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How correcting me is beneficial to the Op escapes me . . .
Correcting misinformation benefits the OP and anyone reading a thread hoping to minimize the time they spend gaining knowledge.

Also, for clarity's sake, please consider presenting your information in a clearer, more logical manner with "big-kid" sentence structure.

When you huck up a random wall of words up like a texting 11 year old with ADHD who's been huffing lacquer thinner, it costs people time.

You quite often have a good point or two but, on average, so does the product of 100 drunk howler monkeys flinging poop at a keyboard.

Feel free to give people both information and shit, but it would be helpful if you didn't swirl the two together until they are indistinguishable.

That's my $.02. Feel free to ignore it. Hope you found this information logical, reasonable, and clearly presented in an easy-to-read format.

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post #13 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 01:11 AM
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Noted to self taken with a forkful of humble-pie:
"Under load" is as outdated a term as spark-plugs and distributors. You are 100% correct and it was an error of word-choice and conceptually moot as well as a poor guess. You offer viable and solid points, White13JKUR. No harm on this end by correction on technolgy.

ExWrench, I am fairly certain that I have been in other dialogues on my favorite forum previously and I have mentioned that I actually do deal with ADD & have done so for my entire life . I didnt intend to hijack the OPs thread but I guess it's prudent to make folks aware that every so often , this peeks through and you'll see a nearly tourettes-like stream of words jet from my mind-to-fingertip ,only it is not possible that mere human digits could keep up with that level of bullet-train-wreck of word arrangment free-fall. I will re-focus on use of better, less-internalized grammar as it is prudent to do so when others hope to find posts useful.

('Ever have one of those weeks where you just seem to irritate everyone you are in contact with? My turn has apparently "come-'round" again....)
This is what occurs when I write programming code for 20-30, 13 hour days (and without wheeling large rocks) for over two months.

I am shutting up now.


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post #14 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 03:35 AM
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Noted to self taken with a forkful of humble-pie:
"Under load" is as outdated a term as spark-plugs and distributors. You are 100% correct and it was an error of word-choice and conceptually moot as well as a poor guess. You offer viable and solid points, White13JKUR. No harm on this end by correction on technolgy.

This is what occurs when I write programming code for 20-30, 13 hour days
The terms "under load" and "spark plugs" are not outdated and are well suited for hurling at one's service advisor or slinging around a bulletin board.

TMI on the ADHD thing. Yeah, screw HIPPA. Tell everyone!

At the rate you are going here, I would recommend that you comment the crap out of your code in case you or someone else has to go back for and look for a regression or new defect and then dev test the snot out of it before flinging it over the fence into QA. Sorry. Couldn't resist.
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post #15 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 04:48 AM
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"If it is happening under free-rev then its most likely in the engine."

Just FYI, he never said it happens during free-rev, he said it only happens when it shifts while accelerating above 4,000 RPM. And there is occasionally a lazy shift with accompanying loss of power.

I doubt there is much hope of us diagnosing it for you, but I would ask if the "loss of power in the transmission" means it feels like it's slipping?

If you take it in let us know how it works out. There is some wizardry going on in the computer during shifting these days. Torque limiting during the shift for smoother shifts, etc. Almost sounds like something is getting screwy with that logic (lazy shifts with loss of power, stutter during shifts). Good luck, hopefully it's something simple.

P.S. HIPAA has rules so others can't disclose your private health information. You can tell whoever you want. Besides, what's so TMI about someone having ADD? If he told me he had IBS and was in a hurry to post because he was clenching back a greasy, dripping deuce I would have felt like that was a bit TMI (or I would have just figured StubEXrube was posting).

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post #16 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 06:37 AM
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TMI on the ADHD thing. Yeah, screw HIPPA. Tell everyone!

I've had to pass my HIPAA compliance for past 7 yrs ; there's no violation or cause for concern by an individual stating they've got an effective treatment for such a normal ,albeit annoying if not maintained, condition. back to real subject.....


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post #17 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 10:16 AM
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Yup, how lame of me for my free-rev nonsense. I read too much into the dragster comment in post #8 and probably should have altogether avoided posting so late at night.

Anyway, if I can add anything else here it would be to request a test drive with the shop foreskin or the "tranny guy" if they are different people. Read: someone who has done the work and knows what they are feeling/testing for. Also read: this can often mean NOT the service advisor.

And yes it can be something as simple as a malfunctioning TPMS that is not bad in a way that it throws a code - where it just gives whacky/false (but within a "normal" range) output. The bitch can be figuring it out. Been there. Done that.

Though you don't have to, putting your stock exhaust back on is a good way to preemptively avoid any potential turbulence in getting this resolved. Especially if you feel that this is in the powerplant vs the transmission.

x2 on the request for the OP to circle back and let us know what it was.
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post #18 of 22 Old 03-18-2015, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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OK, I re-installed my factory exhaust and all issues have gone away or at least they have for tonight. I drove it around for about an hour and the studder has gone away and the lazy shifting has gone as well. I do feel more bottom end and better throttle response than before. I'm not sure how the exhaust would effect it that bad other than the lack of back pressure. I guess these 3.6 engines are very finicky. I will update tomorrow after I drive it about 30 miles to the office. Thanks for the input.

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post #19 of 22 Old 03-19-2015, 02:45 AM
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Interesting. As finicky as the tune might be, I am not someone who believes that swapping out a cat back would ,throw it out of tune like this. The ECU should compensate for any changes that the cat back has introduced and even in combination with an intake. I drove mine around with both intake and exhaust before I had the trinity and no drivability issues.

That said and at this point, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to inspect for a possible exhaust restriction. Maybe Axel Foley pulled the old banana in the tailpipe on you. I think that the silencer is a straight through design (ie a perforate core through an insulated can). You can try snaking a garden hose through the uninstalled, cold cat back to check. I did this once to demonstrate that a stock bmw exhaust was straight through.

What is the diameter of the exhaust? 3" is probably too much without FI, FYI. Not enough exhaust velocity. Some of what you describe could be a result,of this. Like the slight loss of low end power at very slight throttle.

Well, that's my long distance arm chair diagnosis.

If you find that the exhaust is 2.5" vs 3" and that it is unrestricted and want to try this again, maybe resetting the ECU would help. Not sure how to do this on the Jk but it may be something like disconnect the battery and step on the brake for 10 seconds to bleed off the caps in the ECU.

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post #20 of 22 Old 03-19-2015, 03:26 PM Thread Starter
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Well all is back to normal after driving it most of the day. I measured the exhaust and the I.D. is 2.25. I did find the statement below today after doing more research and it goes along with what was said. I will have to try this out this weekend when I have time to re-install.

Thanks for the help and suggestions.
Scott

Jeep Electronic Control Unit Reset
When installing new power or performance accessories how does the computer for the Jeep know that it has a new accessory? Most of the time the computer does not. The computer would need to be reset to take full potential of the performance accessories you have added.

The Electronic Control Module, or ECU as its commonly called, stores the information for your vehicle and your driving habits in its memory. The memory is maintaned by a series of capacitors that hold a charge and maintain power for the ECU when the vehicle is turned off. The following procedure will allow you to reset the memory and allow the computer to 're-learn' how to drive by adjusting to the drivers habits and the vehicles modifications.


1. Disconnect the battery by removing the positive battery cable. Remember, the positive battery cable.

2. Ground the positive cable to the negative cable for 30 seconds to erase the electric charge in the capacitors.

3. Reconnect the positive cable to the battery.

4. Turn the key to on but do not start.

5. Turn the headlights on.

6. Turn the headlights off.

7. Turn the key off.

The ECU has now been reset to its factory settings. For the next 50 warm-up periods the ECU will re-learn the engine and driving habits for your driving conditions and the newly installed parts.

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Last edited by rsjohnsn; 03-19-2015 at 03:31 PM.
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post #21 of 22 Old 03-19-2015, 04:10 PM
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Cool. Good luck. Hope it resolves. Sounds likely.

I've swapped back and forth from stock a few times and put the first aftermarket exhaust on when the jeep was a month old. Never had to do a reset as part of the job. I wonder if your ECU just didn't have some uber conservative tune learned.
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post #22 of 22 Old 03-19-2015, 08:58 PM
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That is strange, I installed a *custom exhaust on my 13 JK at about 2k miles. I didn't have any engine issues and did not have to reset the ECU.

*Custom - I showed up at a muffler shop and asked for a Flowmaster series 40 then had them delete the stock resonator while they were doing the install.

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