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post #1 of 20 Old 08-18-2009, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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The truth is always interesting...

Everyone knows there is a lot of obsession and talk over motor oils and base stock types and quality. Some people insist that PAO base stocks are far superior and are all pissed off at companies like Mobil 1 for switching from PAO bas stocks to Group III hydrocracked base stocks, and running around saying if you ain't buying PAO base you're an idiot.

The truth is always more interesting. This is a great read if you're a geek like me.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...?articleid=533
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post #2 of 20 Old 08-20-2009, 08:43 PM
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Whoa that's some interesting stuff. A little heavy but good stuff.


Now that's thinking with your dipstick Jimmy!
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post #3 of 20 Old 08-23-2009, 05:38 PM
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Way too long. What's the readers digest version?
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post #4 of 20 Old 08-23-2009, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oz97tj View Post
Way too long. What's the readers digest version?
x2...or even cliff's notes verson...

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post #5 of 20 Old 08-23-2009, 10:41 PM
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WHOOSH! That's all I hear when something passes that far over my head. Thanks, but I'll just stick to herding electrons.

Can someone tell me how this affects us? Maybe in words that non-chemists can understand?

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post #6 of 20 Old 08-24-2009, 12:02 AM
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post #7 of 20 Old 08-24-2009, 08:35 AM Thread Starter
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LOL!!

Basically there are two classes of popular synthetic base stocks used in motor oil. Group III are petroleum bases, but are so highly refined that they can be legally classified as synthetic even though it's not a synthesized product. Most 'synthetics' on the shelf are really Group III petroleum bases. Group IV/V base stocks are true synthetics - in other words fully man-made base stocks. Group II stocks are less refined petroleum base stock and what you get when you buy 'conventional' oil.

Lotsa people think that synthetic on the bottle should mean just that - a man-made stock which is superior in all aspects. They think highly refined petroleum stocks labeled as synthetics are a cop-out, and that you aren't getting what you are paying for when shelling out for 'synthetic' oil. For example, Mobil 1 used to be a Group IV full-synthetic PAO base, and has since switched to Group III hydrocracked petroleum base, causing Mobil 1 fans to create quite an uproar about how Mobil 1 was copping out and how dare they do that to their customers.

In reality, there is a pretty big performance gap between Group II conventional base stocks and Group III/IV/V stocks. But the gap between petroleum Group III stocks and true synthetic Group IV/V stocks is so narrow it's hardly measurable - especially when you consider a lot of overall fine-tuning of performance qualities come from the additive package. When your base stocks perform so similarly you're talking minutiae and splitting hairs. Hence the legal classification on Group III base stocks as synthetic even if it ain't. True synthetic Group IV/V stocks are also MUCH more expensive to manufacture for almost no performance benefit, which is why so many synthetic oils have switched to Group III petroleum base.

FWIW When I say performance we're talking standard stuff like wear, viscosity shear, thermal stability, pour point and flow qualities, useful life, etc etc.

So although you'll hear the internet geniuses raise a fuss, their neighbor's Wal-Mart Group III synthetic is working and protecting just as well, and lasting as long, as their $10-quart magic pixie dust Group IV oil. Unless you're going to go 20k miles without a change, you'll never receive the benefit.

Group II 'conventionals' to synthetics worth the performance difference? To me, yes. Nitpicking over stock types in synthetics? Not so much.

They are developing even more refinement processes right now for petroleum stocks that will exceed the performance specs of the best Group IV/V oils, and they will still be much cheaper.

Don't think this is an easy pill to swallow for the vendors of super-premium synthetics like Amsoil, they'll argue this stuff until they're dead. Back when those types of oils were introduced, there was a real need for them because petroleum refinement was nowhere near where it is now. But, times are a changin'.

Last edited by BADGER; 08-24-2009 at 08:38 AM.
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post #8 of 20 Old 08-24-2009, 09:02 AM
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^^^^^^^^^

Holy chit... that is the "short" version?
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post #9 of 20 Old 08-24-2009, 09:12 AM
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Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Defector View Post
LOL!!

Basically there are two classes of popular synthetic base stocks used in motor oil. Group III are petroleum bases, but are so highly refined that they can be legally classified as synthetic even though it's not a synthesized product. Most 'synthetics' on the shelf are really Group III petroleum bases. Group IV/V base stocks are true synthetics - in other words fully man-made base stocks. Group II stocks are less refined petroleum base stock and what you get when you buy 'conventional' oil.

Lotsa people think that synthetic on the bottle should mean just that - a man-made stock which is superior in all aspects. They think highly refined petroleum stocks labeled as synthetics are a cop-out, and that you aren't getting what you are paying for when shelling out for 'synthetic' oil. For example, Mobil 1 used to be a Group IV full-synthetic PAO base, and has since switched to Group III hydrocracked petroleum base, causing Mobil 1 fans to create quite an uproar about how Mobil 1 was copping out and how dare they do that to their customers.

In reality, there is a pretty big performance gap between Group II conventional base stocks and Group III/IV/V stocks. But the gap between petroleum Group III stocks and true synthetic Group IV/V stocks is so narrow it's hardly measurable - especially when you consider a lot of overall fine-tuning of performance qualities come from the additive package. When your base stocks perform so similarly you're talking minutiae and splitting hairs. Hence the legal classification on Group III base stocks as synthetic even if it ain't. True synthetic Group IV/V stocks are also MUCH more expensive to manufacture for almost no performance benefit, which is why so many synthetic oils have switched to Group III petroleum base.

FWIW When I say performance we're talking standard stuff like wear, viscosity shear, thermal stability, pour point and flow qualities, useful life, etc etc.

So although you'll hear the internet geniuses raise a fuss, their neighbor's Wal-Mart Group III synthetic is working and protecting just as well, and lasting as long, as their $10-quart magic pixie dust Group IV oil. Unless you're going to go 20k miles without a change, you'll never receive the benefit.

Group II 'conventionals' to synthetics worth the performance difference? To me, yes. Nitpicking over stock types in synthetics? Not so much.

They are developing even more refinement processes right now for petroleum stocks that will exceed the performance specs of the best Group IV/V oils, and they will still be much cheaper.

Don't think this is an easy pill to swallow for the vendors of super-premium synthetics like Amsoil, they'll argue this stuff until they're dead. Back when those types of oils were introduced, there was a real need for them because petroleum refinement was nowhere near where it is now. But, times are a changin'.
Thanks for translating that to English! I'm guessing it says I'm ok to keep runing Mobil 1. . .

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post #10 of 20 Old 09-02-2009, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacktuttle View Post
Thanks for translating that to English! I'm guessing it says I'm ok to keep runing Mobil 1. . .
Thats my take on it too.

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post #11 of 20 Old 09-02-2009, 08:53 PM
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I use Jiffy Lube takes away all the confusion.

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post #12 of 20 Old 09-03-2009, 03:02 AM
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Short Version

Change your oil every 3 to 4 thousand miles. You'll be fine.
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post #13 of 20 Old 09-04-2009, 07:42 PM
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Sounds like Group III cheaper than Group IV, sell at same price, make more profit....

Ron

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But the Marines don't have that problem." ..... Ronald Reagan


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post #14 of 20 Old 09-04-2009, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Defector View Post
LOL!!

Basically there are two classes of popular synthetic base stocks used in motor oil. Group III are petroleum bases, but are so highly refined that they can be legally classified as synthetic even though it's not a synthesized product. Most 'synthetics' on the shelf are really Group III petroleum bases. Group IV/V base stocks are true synthetics - in other words fully man-made base stocks. Group II stocks are less refined petroleum base stock and what you get when you buy 'conventional' oil.

Lotsa people think that synthetic on the bottle should mean just that - a man-made stock which is superior in all aspects. They think highly refined petroleum stocks labeled as synthetics are a cop-out, and that you aren't getting what you are paying for when shelling out for 'synthetic' oil. For example, Mobil 1 used to be a Group IV full-synthetic PAO base, and has since switched to Group III hydrocracked petroleum base, causing Mobil 1 fans to create quite an uproar about how Mobil 1 was copping out and how dare they do that to their customers.

In reality, there is a pretty big performance gap between Group II conventional base stocks and Group III/IV/V stocks. But the gap between petroleum Group III stocks and true synthetic Group IV/V stocks is so narrow it's hardly measurable - especially when you consider a lot of overall fine-tuning of performance qualities come from the additive package. When your base stocks perform so similarly you're talking minutiae and splitting hairs. Hence the legal classification on Group III base stocks as synthetic even if it ain't. True synthetic Group IV/V stocks are also MUCH more expensive to manufacture for almost no performance benefit, which is why so many synthetic oils have switched to Group III petroleum base.

FWIW When I say performance we're talking standard stuff like wear, viscosity shear, thermal stability, pour point and flow qualities, useful life, etc etc.

So although you'll hear the internet geniuses raise a fuss, their neighbor's Wal-Mart Group III synthetic is working and protecting just as well, and lasting as long, as their $10-quart magic pixie dust Group IV oil. Unless you're going to go 20k miles without a change, you'll never receive the benefit.

Group II 'conventionals' to synthetics worth the performance difference? To me, yes. Nitpicking over stock types in synthetics? Not so much.

They are developing even more refinement processes right now for petroleum stocks that will exceed the performance specs of the best Group IV/V oils, and they will still be much cheaper.

Don't think this is an easy pill to swallow for the vendors of super-premium synthetics like Amsoil, they'll argue this stuff until they're dead. Back when those types of oils were introduced, there was a real need for them because petroleum refinement was nowhere near where it is now. But, times are a changin'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.RonGilbert View Post
^^^^^^^^^

Holy chit... that is the "short" version?
thats still too long lol


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Everyone else can BLOW themselves cause im bad as FUCK!
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post #15 of 20 Old 09-04-2009, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacktuttle View Post
Thanks for translating that to English! I'm guessing it says I'm ok to keep runing Mobil 1. . .
Short version for the win. Mobile 1 every 5-6K and a decent filter.
post #16 of 20 Old 09-05-2009, 09:54 AM
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crap and i just signed up to be a dealer for Amsoil...
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post #17 of 20 Old 09-05-2009, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneCav View Post
Short Version

Change your oil every 3 to 4 thousand miles. You'll be fine.
Thanks! I just don't have that kind of time...you know, that READING stuff.

Nena Barlow

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post #18 of 20 Old 09-06-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderingtrail View Post
Sounds like Group III cheaper than Group IV, sell at same price, make more profit....

Ron
+1
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post #19 of 20 Old 09-07-2009, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X-Defector View Post
  • Group II - 'conventional' oil.
  • Group III - petroleum bases so highly refined that they can be legally classified as synthetic
  • Group IV/V - are true synthetics

Mobil 1 used to be a Group IV base, and has since switched to Group III
Mobil 1 fans create quite an uproar about how Mobil 1 was copping out

big performance gap between Group II and Group III/IV/V

gap between Group III and Group IV/V is so narrow it's hardly measurable

Group IV/V stocks are more expensive to manufacture for almost no performance benefit, which is why so many synthetic oils have switched to Group III petroleum base.

Wal-Mart Group III synthetic is working and protecting just as well as their $10-quart magic pixie dust Group IV oil.

Unless you're going to go 20k miles without a change, you'll never receive the benefit.

I like what you wrote but I deleted a bunch of words for the TLDR crowd
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post #20 of 20 Old 09-08-2009, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Dang, it's about time someone came and put my long-winded arse in check for the rest of the world! And....hey! I am not a nerd!!!

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