08' 2dr LS swap build thread. - Page 11 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #251 of 296 Old 01-03-2018, 11:25 PM
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WATER-METHANOL INJECTION (WMI)

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Good, I have gone full steam ahead on another project non jeep related and only drive this on the weekends. Its been very reliable, since I started driving it I haven't had to do anything to it. I've only put on about 400 miles so I'm getting close to that first oil change. Its loud, it will bust the tires loose at part throttle, and its fun.

I will put a bit more miles on it before I get serious about the blower BUT I am doing my homework on that for sure. I am not sure the cam in these motors will play nice with that kind of overlap. Either way I believe that will happen at some point next year along with a much larger rear axle with rear steer.
If you do the blower (with correct cam), you might also consider Water-Methanol Injection (WMI) pre-throttle body for positive displacement blowers. Will absolutely help with IAT and heat-soak in rotor or screw pack, and may allow you to advance timing.

2013 JKUR
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post #252 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 09:24 AM Thread Starter
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My exhaust puts off a LOT of heat near components that I would rather not be so close to it. Trans cooling lines... driveshaft... wires.... transfer case... you know the usual stuff that the cooler it is the longer it might last. So I bought a 50' roll of this product.... DEI Black Titanium Exhaust Wrap | Design Engineering Inc and some stainless ties.

Yesterday when I got home I wrapped the drivers side section of exhaust coming straight off the header down to where it feeds into the x-pipe. This would cover quite a bit of the areas of concern for me and allow me to sample it against the other side. Once it was done I started it up and let it run for about 5 minutes before I climbed under and started taking readings with my cheapo infrared heat gun. I was surprised to see that the areas of exhaust pipe that were NOT covered were considerably cooler. As a mater of fact I could hit the header directly and it was cooler than the pipe that was covered. I'm not talking a few degrees here either this was upwards of 200+ degree difference. So its obviously doing something but my loose understanding was that it would stop heat radiation onto surrounding things not actually be hotter on the surface than bare pipe. Can someone explain this to me?



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post #253 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 10:03 AM
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That's strange, nothing should be hotter than the headers.

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post #254 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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That's strange, nothing should be hotter than the headers.
The bare pipe was not, not even the 1" of tubing just south of the flange that I could not wrap because the 02 sensor bung was there. As soon as the temp gun migrated over onto the wrap the temp went up 200+ degrees.
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post #255 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 02:16 PM
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Did you install it right side out?
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post #256 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 02:49 PM
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In general, most materials emit more infrared energy than shiny metals dothey have higher emissivity. Reflective surfaces are less emissive than dull surfaces. Weathered or oxidized metals are more emissive than polished, shiny metals.

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post #257 of 296 Old 05-12-2018, 07:09 PM Thread Starter
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Did you install it right side out?
...........
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post #258 of 296 Old 05-14-2018, 06:52 AM
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Did you happen to take before readings of the components you were trying to keep cooler?


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post #259 of 296 Old 05-14-2018, 08:06 AM
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Header wraps keep the heat in the header &can also reduces the radiant heat in the engine bay.

Cool air needs to be around the header since you're insulating it with a wrap which holds exhaust heat in. This results in the header material surface temperatures reaching near molten levels. Wrapping the header traps the expansive heat between the header surface and the wrap, but also suffocates a material application that needs to breathe to dissipate heat for its own survival.

It is detecting thosectemps because you're keeping them in the header tube instead of radiating it to everything....




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post #260 of 296 Old 05-14-2018, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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Did you happen to take before readings of the components you were trying to keep cooler?

No, that would have required some forethought.
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post #261 of 296 Old 05-14-2018, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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Header wraps keep the heat in the header &can also reduces the radiant heat in the engine bay.

Cool air needs to be around the header since you're insulating it with a wrap which holds exhaust heat in. This results in the header material surface temperatures reaching near molten levels. Wrapping the header traps the expansive heat between the header surface and the wrap, but also suffocates a material application that needs to breathe to dissipate heat for its own survival.

It is detecting thosectemps because you're keeping them in the header tube instead of radiating it to everything....




Ok makes sense. It appears that 304 stainless becomes molten around 1400c I'm reading temps in the 440F range on the wrapped pipe. I think it will be ok, I just hope it has SOME positive affect on surrounding components.
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post #262 of 296 Old 05-15-2018, 04:50 AM
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Ok makes sense. It appears that 304 stainless becomes molten around 1400c I'm reading temps in the 440F range on the wrapped pipe. I think it will be ok, I just hope it has SOME positive affect on surrounding components.
for those most critical and subject-to possible temps exceeding what they’re possibly intended to bear, take a look at this very well-known product manufacturer & some solutions for plastics , hoses, other engine bay components you want to shield from any high temps.

In particular, browse down page & “learn more” about their ‘ Cool Foil Tape’ .
I have certain items cool foil tape wrapped & it’s awesome, awesome stuff.

Even with a black Jeep Unlimited with the 3.8l and a huge trans cooler & far too powerful a cfm fan , my engine can idle or winch in middle of August in Southern Tennessee for 10 hours if necessary , in direct sun and the intake air even when never exceeds 101,106 F ...I never have seen temp of the return line to auto tranny pass 165-172 F and everything wrapped in it just reflects it where it can be released thru the hood louvers by the big Spal fan.
It’s cool stuff that I saw the likes of the Pellegrinos ,Millers and Gerald Lee using around their race engines .


(edit:I also have their Thermal Foil Tape for the ignition stuff just above the driver exhaust manifold & for all those fuel and electrical connections that run close to the cats behind front fender wells)




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post #263 of 296 Old 06-10-2018, 07:44 AM
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The cam in the motor is what is called the "ASA" cam. It has relatively low lift for an aftermarket cam by LS motor standards but has a very low lobe separation which attributes to the choppiness of it at idle. The more I listen to it run in person the more I realize that the video isnt anywhere near close to capturing the real noise level. 3" true dual mandrel exhaust, x pipe, no cats, and as you pointed out those mufflers are not chambered and the body is only 12" long. The idle speed is between 900 and 1k on the gauge.

Anyone in the DFW area is welcome to come attest to the racket this thing puts out in person.
Where you located in DFW? Id like to check a LS swap in person . About to start my swap..

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post #264 of 296 Old 06-10-2018, 08:11 AM Thread Starter
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Where you located in DFW? Id like to check a LS swap in person . About to start my swap..
South end of the metroplex, Ellis county. Shoot me a PM if you're serious about it.
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post #265 of 296 Old 06-10-2018, 09:52 AM
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South end of the metroplex, Ellis county. Shoot me a PM if you're serious about it.


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post #266 of 296 Old 01-07-2019, 06:37 PM
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Great build.....what have you use for A/C lines and would you have pictures
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post #267 of 296 Old 01-15-2019, 05:52 PM
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Man I wish I'd have seen your thread earlier. I'm a year into my hemi swap with all the other side projects. Doing my own exhaust too. Your jeep looks and sounds great; thanks for sharing.
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post #268 of 296 Old 01-19-2019, 02:53 PM Thread Starter
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Great build.....what have you use for A/C lines and would you have pictures
They are the ones offered by RPM extreme. They work and look OEM besides being reshaped to work in this application.
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post #269 of 296 Old 02-09-2019, 01:09 PM Thread Starter
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UPDATE... and its a doozy


Shortly after this engine was brand new it developed a noise that while wasn't awful still bothered me. It seemed to go away after the engine was staring to get warmed up so I didn't think anything of it really. I am aware that LS engines are somewhat notorious for making noise for a whole variety of reasons and a lot of the time while annoying isn't doing any damage. Over time I have searched and searched youtube and google for this specific noise and came up short of anything super close to it. I know engine noises unless super specific are almost impossible to diagnose just by ear. The only way I can describe it was a clatter type noise that doesn't sound like piston slap or a loose rocker arm either but does "sound" valve train related at least to me. Fast forward some time and the noise has hung around longer and longer as the engine warms up and now it is always present although quieter with a fully hot engine. I decided that something is not right, I called Jon and ran it by him and nothing stood out to him but he did say that he had a customer or two that had loose rocker arm studs on brand new crate engines in the past. After the phone call I googled info for LS rocker arms since they are NON adjustable and I was wondering what they "should" feel or be like.

Google said with no pressure on the spring you should be able to very slightly move them laterally just a tiny bit. I removed the valve covers and the first thing I did was check the rocker arm studs and all were tight. After that I bumped the engine around and wiggled all 16 of them and most of mine felt this way but I had a few that definitely had more play to them than the rest. We aren't talking tons more but maybe .015" more on some. I also thought that I could feel some up and down play in them like I could feel play when I was pulling and pushing on the rocker body from straight above. I decided to remove all the rockers and pull all the pushrods for inspection.


What I found was that the design of the roller section of the rocker arm has a design to it that baffles me to hell and back. First the bearings are pressed into the rocker body, nothing weird there BUT they are "keyed" in a manner that limits the travel of the rocker body on the trunnion. (See photo) This means that if you don't get that outer race of the bearing pressed in with just the right orientation, the trunnion will crash into it during operation. None of mine were damaged in this way but I thought it was a terrible design. ALSO the area that rides on the inner race of the trunnion bearings IS NOT ROUND! Its half round and has more of a point on the top where when the rocker is pushing the valve down all the pressure is on a point of the inner bearing.... fucking explain to me how that is a good idea? No to mention on every single bearing and trunnion there is upwards of .015-.020" play in ALL DIRECTIONS. Sloppy is the best way to describe it.






One of the fixes for this is a kit from Summit for about $120 that provides all new bearings, trunnions (THAT ARE FUCKING ROUND) and c-clips that act as keepers for the bearings. The bearings are pressed into the rockers just like OEM but one thing that can happen with a larger lift or duration cam is the pressure will walk the OEM bearing out of the rocker body and then you have about 30 tiny needle bearings all in your engine playing around. The bearings that come in the Summit kit are 1 piece and can not be disassembled so this is a non issue. The kit also eliminated the limiting of how far the rocker can travel on the trunnion.



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post #270 of 296 Old 02-09-2019, 01:11 PM Thread Starter
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An hour later I have all 16 rockers retrofitted with the new trunnion kit from Summit and they are solid with zero play except a little side to side as the trunnion slides between the bearings about .010" but there is ZERO radial play in the trunnion to bearing connection. I m not sure if that was my problem or not yet but I don't think it was right.




Next it was on to looking at the push rods and it didn't take me long to find 2 that were like this.....




I don't know if that is a big deal or not but the others are very straight. So now its time to shop some heavier duty rods.... I hope all this fixes the noise. I also picked up a ATI super damper while I was in there with a 10% under drive (having Summit so close is bad news) that store is awesome.

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post #271 of 296 Old 02-10-2019, 10:43 AM
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Wow, maybe I should just slap that Summit kit in before I fire mine up. Though at the rate I'm going, if it never starts, I'll never have problems. I have read about the trunnion upgrade from many different sources.

Even a slightly bent pushrod is going to be shorter.

How many miles have you got on it now?

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post #272 of 296 Old 02-10-2019, 11:31 AM
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I'd recommend also looking closely at your pushrod tips. If they're scratched, the rocker cups will probably also be scratched and might wear out your new pushrods prematurely. I had similar issues with my hemi rods with only 10k on the engine - too short, not straight, and scratched. Suspect that crooked one might have been short enough for the lifter to reach "zero lash" or zero preload, resulting in some play when the cam is at base circle iaw - ticking noise especially when cold until the lifter pumps up enough to compensate. Too much bending or wear and the lifters can't compensate. Not sure about LS but hemis are supposed to have about .040" of lifter preload.

I'd recommend Manton pushrods. For my hemi the lengths and straightness are excellent.

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post #273 of 296 Old 02-10-2019, 12:41 PM
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I used Comp Cams trunion upgrade during the cam swap. After knocking out just the first couple of OE rollers I was amazed that folks are turning these LSs to 7k rpm with that junk in there. Certainly asking for trouble when one lets go and pushes that trash through the engine. Absolutely a worth while safety upgrade.
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post #274 of 296 Old 02-10-2019, 01:27 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, maybe I should just slap that Summit kit in before I fire mine up. Though at the rate I'm going, if it never starts, I'll never have problems. I have read about the trunnion upgrade from many different sources.

Even a slightly bent pushrod is going to be shorter.

How many miles have you got on it now?

Highly advisable after seeing the junk that is in there. The internet said these are pretty much only good for stock shit. I am not sure if GM even has an upgraded version of this that they could have put in there but there are several kits out there that fix it. You will also need the $40 summit tool that makes this job super easy. It could be done without it but its worth the $40 in just the effort saved in trying to figure out how to rig it up. I have somewhere between 1-2k miles on it. Some of the parts in the Summit kit are stamped made in the US and that surprised me especially at the price point.

Speaking of Summit, after breakfast I swung back through and picked up a set of pushrods. The stock length of the rods is 7.400" so I bought some 5/16" diameter chromo .080" wall thickness pushrods which seems to be the standard upgrade over stock. Another $ 120 gone. I got the drivers side reassembled and I can only barely wiggle just a few of the rockers the tiny .010" or so that is the clearance between the trunnion and the bearings. Before I could move almost all of them freely and some in multiple directions.




I felt as if the noise was coming from both sides of the engine before and what I thought being the worst of the noise coming from the passenger side. Common sense told me that if this is a valve train related noise that both sides probably didn't crap out all at once. After seeing the difference in the play between the stock assembly and how it is now I am not convinced that wasn't the case. Time to get the other side done and get the covers back on.



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post #275 of 296 Old 02-10-2019, 01:35 PM Thread Starter
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I'd recommend also looking closely at your pushrod tips. If they're scratched, the rocker cups will probably also be scratched and might wear out your new pushrods prematurely. I had similar issues with my hemi rods with only 10k on the engine - too short, not straight, and scratched. Suspect that crooked one might have been short enough for the lifter to reach "zero lash" or zero preload, resulting in some play when the cam is at base circle iaw - ticking noise especially when cold until the lifter pumps up enough to compensate. Too much bending or wear and the lifters can't compensate. Not sure about LS but hemis are supposed to have about .040" of lifter preload.

I'd recommend Manton pushrods. For my hemi the lengths and straightness are excellent.

I did inspect all components and I did not see any unusual wear on the ends of the push rods or the rockers. I am not sure how much but there is definitely some preload on the rockers now. Before there were some that were zero or less.
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