MoTech Gen V LS Conversion - Page 8 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #176 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
As far as the convertor, do I need to send that to you along with the other components when that time comes for you to work the magic on it?
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What did that run and are you running an auto trans? Im right behind you on ordering stuff and I want to make sure I get the right stuff.
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Originally Posted by Wannarun View Post
The dude ordered a torque converter, and you want to know if he is running an auto transmission?
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Ahh shit, Ive been drinking this evening and didn't put 2 and 2 together. I do wanna know what it cost though.
Wow, that must have been a "Ryan Lochte" kind of night of drinking. Well look at the bright side, at least it didn't cost you five to ten million dollars in endorsement deals! Ouch!!!

And as for your first question, I think Robbie may have overlooked that one (intentionally??) so let me help you out. I am pretty sure Robbie won't need the torque converter (or is it convertor.....). All he could do with it is take it out of the box and say "Yup, that's a torque converter." There are no adjustments and you don't program the converter itself. Once the specs for the turbine and such are selected that baby is welded up and that is pretty much that. Hence the reason that Edge wants to know so much about the vehicle. Its a one and done thing. So it pays to choose wisely.

And I know you like to figure stuff out on your own, but just in case, here are a couple of tips. Don't forget to put some ATF in the converter before you install it in the bell housing. And make damn sure its fully seated onto the shaft in the bell housing. Bad shit if its not. There should be a spec for the set back when it is fully seated. Check it, its that important. (I assume there is a spec, but I have never worked on a 6L80E before so I am making an assumption.)
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post #177 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 09:03 AM
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Wow, that must have been a "Ryan Lochte" kind of night of drinking. Well look at the bright side, at least it didn't cost you five to ten million dollars in endorsement deals! Ouch!!!

And as for your first question, I think Robbie may have overlooked that one (intentionally??) so let me help you out. I am pretty sure Robbie won't need the torque converter (or is it convertor.....). All he could do with it is take it out of the box and say "Yup, that's a torque converter." There are no adjustments and you don't program the converter itself. Once the specs for the turbine and such are selected that baby is welded up and that is pretty much that. Hence the reason that Edge wants to know so much about the vehicle. Its a one and done thing. So it pays to choose wisely.

And I know you like to figure stuff out on your own, but just in case, here are a couple of tips. Don't forget to put some ATF in the converter before you install it in the bell housing. And make damn sure its fully seated onto the shaft in the bell housing. Bad shit if its not. There should be a spec for the set back when it is fully seated. Check it, its that important. (I assume there is a spec, but I have never worked on a 6L80E before so I am making an assumption.)

Don't forget there are several adjustments that NEED to be done in the transmission tuning if you run an aftermarket torque converter. Things like apply ramp, regulator gain, desired slip, high speed lock, apply and release speeds, WOT apply and release. If you don't get it set up correctly you will smoke that high dollar converter and generate a ton of heat in the transmission.


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post #178 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 09:40 AM Thread Starter
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The 6l80 was designed by GM in house to maximize economy and performance. The 6l80 has a diverse gear range from 4:1 to a .6 OD. The 6l80 is a dual clutch transmission eliminating traditional hubs and bands for ultra fast shift times the likes of BMW and Porsche.

Interesting thing about the 6l80 is it has a lot in common with a manual transmission having dual clutches and software driven shifting. This makes the 6l80 much more efficient than the old 4 and 5 speed transmissions rivaling if not beating some manual transmissions due to the wider gear spread.

IMO the 6l80 is a great transmission and perfect in our heavy JK's. So far GM only rates the 8l80/90 3.5% better mpg than the 6l80 and the gear spread is similar. The 8l80/90 goes back to a more traditional transmission design but GM claims it will shift as fast or faster than the dual clutch transmissions due to new technology.

I feel there was so much improvement going from the 4l65 to the 6l80 we will only see small incremental improvements now. The old JK 4 speed and 4l80's are old technology, high friction, high heat and complex wiring harnesses. Besides the efficiency of the CAN transmissions the wire count has been reduced to a handful with the TCM inside the transmission talking over the bus. Less chance of failure and better integration.

My drive with the 6l80 in the Gen V engine proves it's versatility. In the Gen V engines the 6l80 is programmed to hold a gear longer and keep the R's up. This is most likley due to the high compression, cam phasing and Direct Injection; the engine does not need to downshift to find it's optimal rpm because this new technology has widened the optimal range. So rather then rev the engine to where the cam works the Gen V engines phase the cam to where the RPM's are. It is a different feeling and you have instant torque and pull no matter what rpm you are in the rpm range.

Don came by yesterday and took his Gen V LS JK for a spin, first time it was on the highway. Having had a Gen IV LS3 Don can describe best the differences but I know from my talk with him the Gen V 6.2 truck has similar power to the LS3 in the upper rpm range, but also has instant and powerful torque all the way down to an idle. Don says the engine ran in the 4 cylinder mode much of the time so he was driving a 3.1 liter engine getting 3.1 liter mpg; yet, when you get on it you get over 400 HP of V8 power all on regular gas.

In the meantime I still love my Gen IV 6.2/6l80. I have become accustomed to the the way it shifts and drives and it gets better mpg than my 3.8. I'll keep my 6.2 JK for the long term and already have 80,000 miles on the swap and it seems to run better everyday.

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post #179 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nucleophile View Post
And as for your first question, I think Robbie may have overlooked that one (intentionally??) so let me help you out. I am pretty sure Robbie won't need the torque converter (or is it convertor.....). All he could do with it is take it out of the box and say "Yup, that's a torque converter." There are no adjustments and you don't program the converter itself. Once the specs for the turbine and such are selected that baby is welded up and that is pretty much that. Hence the reason that Edge wants to know so much about the vehicle. Its a one and done thing. So it pays to choose wisely.

And I know you like to figure stuff out on your own, but just in case, here are a couple of tips. Don't forget to put some ATF in the converter before you install it in the bell housing. And make damn sure its fully seated onto the shaft in the bell housing. Bad shit if its not. There should be a spec for the set back when it is fully seated. Check it, its that important. (I assume there is a spec, but I have never worked on a 6L80E before so I am making an assumption.)

Yes, misspellings and overlooked details I can contribute to more beer than I should have drank last night. As I said I really want the 525hp 6.2 but it is not quite as "plug and play" as the 480hp and lower engines seem to be. I can swing the extra for a different convertor and more fuel but Robbie has stated in a not so direct way that they don't really have a lights out tune for it as they do the 480hp engines. Will the 6l80 hold up to the 525hp engine or should I really be looking at a 90 for this?
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post #180 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 12:56 PM
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Yes, misspellings and overlooked details I can contribute to more beer than I should have drank last night. As I said I really want the 525hp 6.2 but it is not quite as "plug and play" as the 480hp and lower engines seem to be. I can swing the extra for a different convertor and more fuel but Robbie has stated in a not so direct way that they don't really have a lights out tune for it as they do the 480hp engines. Will the 6l80 hold up to the 525hp engine or should I really be looking at a 90 for this?
John at Overland Performance told me to look for a 90 and not a 80, because of running a 525. I also talked to the guys at Circle D Transmissions, they said do a 90 and not the 80 when running a 525 too.

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post #181 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 03:36 PM
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John at Overland Performance told me to look for a 90 and not a 80, because of running a 525. I also talked to the guys at Circle D Transmissions, they said do a 90 and not the 80 when running a 525 too.
What differences besides the obvious are you going to have to make to the install itself? I know there is a slight difference in the trans length. What are you doing about this?
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post #182 of 420 Old 08-20-2016, 05:23 PM
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What differences besides the obvious are you going to have to make to the install itself? I know there is a slight difference in the trans length. What are you doing about this?
Only speaking for myself. I'm never going to notice that the trans is 1.5" longer. I'm doing the LS swap at the same time I'm doing double triangulated 4 links front & rear, tons, full hydro, coilovers, fuel cell in the rear, cage, hacking of the frame in multiple places, new crossmembers, etc., etc.

For me, the difference in trans lengths will just get absorbed into what will become a really fun nightmare. Andy at TrailWorthy is making inputs so the 90 will bolt directly to the Hero 3spd transfer case.

I believe Robbie used a 90 in Bluewave's Jeep. I'm sure he can shed light on any differences there are besides just the length.

Kevin

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post #183 of 420 Old 08-21-2016, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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We've actually done several 6l90 swaps to date, they work fine. What most guys don't realize is the 6l80 is shorter than a 4l60, so the additional length of the 6l90 is no problem in a 4 door. Always run the shortest drivetrain you can in a 2 door to get a longer driveshaft or on a lifted 2 door you may set up vibrations. We offer a shorter TC adapter for 2 doors but you must run a 4WD transmission.

Be careful what 6l90 you purchase, it must be a 4WD or you will be replacing the output shaft. Replacing the output shaft requires disassembly of the transmission. The 2WD 6l90 has an odd spline count that is not well supported.

If running an Atlas call Steve over at Advance and he will set you up. If running a 241J Novak has an input gear for you. There are different output shafts and some will require a spacer plate to bolt up properly, we can help you with this.

Even with the 6l90 transmission, our long adapter and the spacer plate an Atlas 2 will clear the rear crossmember. No sectioning is required like some builds. The 6l80 and 90 run the same T43 controller so no problem tuning. If running a non stock engine please get the appropriate tune the 6l80 is strong but requires proper tuning. Most tuner's do not understand how to tune a 6l80.

As a side note we took a couple LS JK's to the mountain yesterday for testing. We took the Gen V out and it performed flawless. Even at 8,000 feet it stayed in 4 cylinder mode much of the time. It's actually pretty cool feels like a diesel on the trail.

It appears the Gen V got great mileage, even climbing from 2 to 9,000 feet. I'll try and get some videos up shortly.
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post #184 of 420 Old 08-21-2016, 08:07 PM
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Robbie is right about the trans tune being important. I bought a crate trans but it shipped with no tune. The shop used a snap-on to put a silverado tune into it.
The tap shift works but I have no compression engine braking. Cruise control gives me engine braking though. So there is some wierd tune required.

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Running 37's as a daily driver is dumb
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post #185 of 420 Old 08-21-2016, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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These are not my videos, I will be adding some of mine next week. These trails are at 8,000 feet and full of caliche. We test drive every vehicle on roads like this; we don't want to thrash them so these trails shake them up. If anything is going to leak or fail it usually does. The climb to high altitude is tough on the cooling system too, it was well over 100* this day.

We were getting this stock 2 door 5.3 California build ready to ship and we brought the Gen V with us. We started in NE Vegas near Nellis AFB, drove to the top of Lee canyon at 9,000 feet then ran trails for 1/2 hour. The Gen V drove effortless, running up the grades in high gear; even running as a 4 cylinder at altitude unlike the Gen IV engines. When we got back to the shop both Jeeps had just under 3/4 of a tank.

Now I realize the 2 door has a smaller tank but to have a heavy JK on tons with 40's and similar power to an LS3 or 6.4 getting similar mpg to a lightweight 5.3 2 door is amazing. And on regular gas. Also don't forget emissions compliance. So many swap offerings state for off-road use only and as more states add testing and jurisdictions tighten up it will become difficult to register or sell your JK without a compliant swap.

To be honest, and this is premature at this point, if this Gen V works out like it looks other swaps simply will not make sense. Now this does not mean the Gen IV swaps and Hemi's won't have their place but the market will have to adjust. I still feel the Gen IV swap is viable and has some advantages over the Gen V, I have no intention of upgrading to a Gen V and we will continue to support the Gen IV swaps. The Gen IV swaps are great in a JK, they are emissions compliant in earlier JK's and you can get as much HP as you want from them.


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post #186 of 420 Old 08-22-2016, 06:26 AM
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We've actually done several 6l90 swaps to date, they work fine. What most guys don't realize is the 6l80 is shorter than a 4l60, so the additional length of the 6l90 is no problem in a 4 door. Always run the shortest drivetrain you can in a 2 door to get a longer driveshaft or on a lifted 2 door you may set up vibrations. We offer a shorter TC adapter for 2 doors but you must run a 4WD transmission.

Be careful what 6l90 you purchase, it must be a 4WD or you will be replacing the output shaft. Replacing the output shaft requires disassembly of the transmission. The 2WD 6l90 has an odd spline count that is not well supported.

If running an Atlas call Steve over at Advance and he will set you up. If running a 241J Novak has an input gear for you. There are different output shafts and some will require a spacer plate to bolt up properly, we can help you with this.

Even with the 6l90 transmission, our long adapter and the spacer plate an Atlas 2 will clear the rear crossmember. No sectioning is required like some builds. The 6l80 and 90 run the same T43 controller so no problem tuning. If running a non stock engine please get the appropriate tune the 6l80 is strong but requires proper tuning. Most tuner's do not understand how to tune a 6l80.

As a side note we took a couple LS JK's to the mountain yesterday for testing. We took the Gen V out and it performed flawless. Even at 8,000 feet it stayed in 4 cylinder mode much of the time. It's actually pretty cool feels like a diesel on the trail.

It appears the Gen V got great mileage, even climbing from 2 to 9,000 feet. I'll try and get some videos up shortly.
Now that’s some solid info right there. In my 08' 2dr do you think with the 6l90 and the 241j t-case that it will work out with the 4" of lift that I have? I realize the lift will put the driveshaft angle in a not so great situation especially being a 2dr.

On the other hand, my jeep is not necessarily on the heavy side and I have gearing on my side as well with 5.13's and 37's. Do you think I really need a 90 with the 525hp engine?
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post #187 of 420 Old 08-22-2016, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Now that’s some solid info right there. In my 08' 2dr do you think with the 6l90 and the 241j t-case that it will work out with the 4" of lift that I have? I realize the lift will put the driveshaft angle in a not so great situation especially being a 2dr.

On the other hand, my jeep is not necessarily on the heavy side and I have gearing on my side as well with 5.13's and 37's. Do you think I really need a 90 with the 525hp engine?
I think the 6l80 will be fine. This JKU is over 700 HP with 40's. Let's say it broke a few drivetrain parts but not the 6l80.

It's important in a 2 door to keep the driveline angles shallow, I say this from experience. A 4" lift on a 2 door with a 19" rear shaft is a vibration waiting to happen. Keep the lift as low as possible. On some 2 doors we cut off the rear suspension brackets and roll the axle housing to the proper pinion angle; if you don't do this the spring perches and sway bar mounts get twisted.

Get the shortest aapter you can get and move the rear axle back if you can with some adjustable arms. We have done many 2 door swaps and have experience with them, when I get in a lifeted 2 door my concern is always vibrations. It's more art then science, some vibrate and some don't even with similar setups, kinda like death wobble.

But you can increase your odds of success by running the longest rear shaft you can and the lowest lift possible.

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post #188 of 420 Old 08-22-2016, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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I was going to post this in the Vendor section but I think it is appropriate here since were going out with the Gen V JK and making comparisons.

I have been getting a lot of questions lately regarding emissions compliance. As more states and areas implement emissions testing it will become increasingly difficult to register your JK or even sell it if it is not compliant. In the West states like CA, NV and AZ are stepping up enforcement and pulling registrations if your vehicle is not compliant. I am currently helping several customers deal with this, mostly Hemi builds. Not supported or unset monitors are no longer tolerated and emission analyzers are now programmed to look for this, if your monitor support is not in a USEPA configuration your tags get pulled. This is not to say you can't get it through with the right ref, or register it in a non test area; it's just going to get more difficult.

I work with the labs, politicians and customers to make these swaps legal. While many swaps warn "for off-road use only" we try to do the other thing. We have from the beginning done our swap the way we do it for a reason.

The fact, and law, is you must run a pure network with OE calibrations from a USEPA certified production vehicle. This includes hardware, software and modules. While there may be shortcuts to any swap in order to keep our JK's legal there is not. Running two pure OS's with factory cals is required. This not only leads to proper emissions and compliance but OE level drivability and serviceability. Our swap has come a long way from 8 years ago. Essentially we run two pure OS's with a simple bridge. We also build in redundancy so if either side has a failure they remain independent and you drive home.

Here is a short video of a 2 door California build we are testing. This is the 4th CA build we have done in the last 3 months and it's all about emissions. California no longer allows any monitors to be incomplete on swapped vehicles. California now checks monitor and Mode 6 data status so you can no longer get away with turning them off. Bottom line is it's not going to get any easier to register or sell you JK if it is not compliant. It is actually a crime to sell a modified if it is not compliant in many areas.

I hope this video speaks a little to why we do what we do.

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post #189 of 420 Old 08-22-2016, 12:07 PM
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Great info and video again. As I was once leaning to get away from emissions I am now going the other way and want to get it all right the first time. Its really not much more involved to make it right so why not just do it.

As far as the trans, my absorbtion of the information so far has me thinking that if I go with the 6l90 I need to make sure I get the 4wd version but if I get a 6l80 I can get any variant including one from a 2wd vehicle and I will not have to open it up to replace parts?
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post #190 of 420 Old 08-22-2016, 12:24 PM Thread Starter
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You can run a 2 or 4WD 6l80, you need to add the rear output seal, two plugs and cut off the extra shaft with the 2WD 6l80.

It's true with emissions, it does not affect performance much and you can buy the power you want with compliant engines.

When I see guys put a cam in a 5.3 to get 6.0 power they could have purchased a 6.0 with better drivability for less money.

The LS3 series of engines have become a world standard for swapping. There is almost unlimited aftermarket support to get whatever you require.
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post #191 of 420 Old 08-23-2016, 07:11 AM
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this thread is extremely entertaining! all this info is really good and i consider this swap to be my one day end game solution. keep the videos coming.


2013 JKUR Billet Silver ->
[JKUR - 6 Speed][3.5" MC ARB Lift][40" Nitto Trail Grapplers on 17" TR Beadlocks][5.38s][Fusion 4x4 Kingpin 1 Tons][MC Front & Rear Bumpers][sPOD][Warn Zeon 10s][And more ...]

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post #192 of 420 Old 08-23-2016, 03:11 PM
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What are the manual trans options with the gen V?
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post #193 of 420 Old 08-23-2016, 04:20 PM Thread Starter
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What are the manual trans options with the gen V?
We will be supporting the Camaro LT1 6.2 engine which is available with the 6 speed Tremec transmission. This combination from GM has active rev matching. Since the Tremec is now available in 4WD I'm going to assume it will work but have have yet to do one.
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post #194 of 420 Old 08-31-2016, 01:01 PM Thread Starter
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post #195 of 420 Old 09-02-2016, 11:14 AM
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Robbie, I'm planing on doing the engine swap in my 07 JK next year but I would like to start sourcing parts as soon as possible. I have a some questions if you don't mind.

1. I currently have a manual transmission but I think I would like to use the 6L80E. Will the tap shiftier from a 2012 JK work? Will it fit in my current console with the 07 automatic bezel?
2. Will I need a new instrument cluster?
3. Will I need a new JK PCM?
4. Will I need new drive shafts?
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post #196 of 420 Old 09-02-2016, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Robbie, I'm planing on doing the engine swap in my 07 JK next year but I would like to start sourcing parts as soon as possible. I have a some questions if you don't mind.

1. I currently have a manual transmission but I think I would like to use the 6L80E. Will the tap shiftier from a 2012 JK work? Will it fit in my current console with the 07 automatic bezel?
2. Will I need a new instrument cluster?
3. Will I need a new JK PCM?
4. Will I need new drive shafts?

1. Yes we can support the 2012+ bumpshifter in an 07' but the 12' shifter does not fit into the 07' console. You will need a 2011+ center console. Unfortunately Chrysler has raised the price on the console components so much it will run $800-$1,000 to purchase all new parts. This includes the front and rear console sections, the lid, cup holders, etc.... As far as the console goes look for a take out from a guy who installed a Tuffy or other console. I had a customer get a whole console assembly from a 12' for $75 off eBay.


For the manual to automatic you will need two shift cables, one is for the transmission and the other the key interlock. An automatic brake pedal, the pedal is optional but we like to replace it. No hardware is required as the same pin and clip hold it in. The sled which is the metal plate under the shifter assembly, fortunately these parts are inexpensive from Chrysler.

2&3. No I would run the stock cluster and PCM. Your PCM does not have a C4 connector for transmission control but it is not a problem, our interface controls the reverse lights, neutral safety, etc.

4. Depends on what engine you run and what suspension you have. If you lift a JK with stock control arms the rear driveshaft gets shorter and we already move the TC back about 1". We do have a reduced length TC adapter and with stock suspension you may get way with stock shafts,. The original 5.3 JKU we did in 2009 is still running the stock JK shafts with 130,000 miles. If running a 6.0 or larger engine with larger tires I would upgrade the shafts. In that case we can have shafts built for you at a reasonable cost. Normally we run a 1350 rear and 1350 or 1310 front CV.

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post #197 of 420 Old 09-02-2016, 02:06 PM
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Thanks!
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post #198 of 420 Old 09-08-2016, 09:49 PM
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Latest updates-

Tap Shift fully functional

Tow/Haul functional through the Jeeps O/D Button

A/C fully functional using the Gen V engine A/C compressor. Working great!

Video to come
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post #199 of 420 Old 09-10-2016, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Feedback: 2 reviews
MoTech Hemi to LS

Been working on this JKUR for years, it was a VVT Hemi. Being black out here in Vegas this heavy JKUR overheated a lot and the customer finally chose to go with an LS3. This is a heavy JKUR with tons, fridge, batteries..... John Currie did the suspension and axles recently.

Here I am shaking it up as usual and it performed great. This customer is semi retired and does a lot of wheeling, EJS, Rubicon, Logandale..... I know the abuse this JK gets so it got a good run and check out. This year at EJS this JK constantly overheated, on the same trail were a couple of our LS JK's that didn't so.... I have to give the wiring guys credit they got the wiring install down to science, made it very simple which allows us to turn these around quickly. We will post some instructions shortly and I may even do a front to back time lase build driving in with a 6 and driving out with an 8.
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MoTech
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post #200 of 420 Old 09-20-2016, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,249
Feedback: 2 reviews

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MoTech
725-502-8507

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