MoTech Gen V LS Conversion - Page 6 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #126 of 420 Old 08-17-2016, 08:35 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by TXtoAZ View Post
Don't want to clog up this thread, but would like to hear more about the LFX.
The LFX has a lot of potential. It is lightweight has good horse power and a good six speed automatic transmission. My only concern is the available torques but we will find out soon how it performs and let you know.

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post #127 of 420 Old 08-17-2016, 08:53 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
That part number comes up CTS-V. I take it, it's the same layout as a Camaro, but with the Corvette offset?

Do you have a part # for the water pump and harmonic balancer you used? Summit and Jegs are giving me different numbers for the balancer and water pump needed.

Got the Sanden compressor ordered
It can be confusing. With the Gen IV V-8 engines there are basically two offsets the Truck/Camaro and the Corvette. There are others like the supercharged engine but we're not talking about those.

Basically the truck and Camaro run the same balancer offset, it is extended out further then the Corvette mainly to clear the variable valve timing components. The Corvette and Camaro have very different accessory drive positions with the truck putting the alternator up high and the Camaro alternator a mid mount. Both have the air compressor on the passenger low. The Corvette on the other hand has a different balancer and water pump, the water pump is very similar to the Camaro but shorter.

The production Corvette has the alternator 17 inches off center towards the driver side for the low hood clearance of the Corvette. This means it will not fit in most normal chassis like the JK because it goes into the fender well. So what GM performance did is they used the accessory drive layout of the Camaro but the offset of the Corvette to give more fan clearance. They call it the CTV accessory drive I do not know why. The CTV accessory drive is available with or without an air compressor and works well in many chassis including the JK. The CTV accessory drive uses the Corvette balancer and water pump, the part numbers are in the instructions that you can download off-line from the Chevrolet performance website.

The truck drive the GM performance offers is basically the same as the production accessory drive. They run an earlier alternator that is self exciting so that it is a one wire hook up. Again the truck drive is available with or without the air compressor. They do not include the front power steering/alternator bracket, you must purchase that separately. A complete parts list and breakdown of the components with part numbers is available in the instructions which you can download from the Chevrolet performs website.

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post #128 of 420 Old 08-17-2016, 10:33 PM
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How similar will the overall swap be on this engine into an 07 - 11 JK? The more I read about all of the torque management and such, the less I want it. However, the plug and play aspect of what you've shown here is naturally attractive.

Also, you mentioned a builder kit that has been available since 2010. Can you expand on that while we are here? I'm with the guy above that mentioned only being concerned with keeping his AC/Heat. The rest of it can go away and I would prefer to run a 6.0.


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post #129 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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How similar will the overall swap be on this engine into an 07 - 11 JK? The more I read about all of the torque management and such, the less I want it. However, the plug and play aspect of what you've shown here is naturally attractive.

Also, you mentioned a builder kit that has been available since 2010. Can you expand on that while we are here? I'm with the guy above that mentioned only being concerned with keeping his AC/Heat. The rest of it can go away and I would prefer to run a 6.0.
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Originally Posted by RiverCityOffroad View Post
How similar will the overall swap be on this engine into an 07 - 11 JK? The more I read about all of the torque management and such, the less I want it. However, the plug and play aspect of what you've shown here is naturally attractive.

Also, you mentioned a builder kit that has been available since 2010. Can you expand on that while we are here? I'm with the guy above that mentioned only being concerned with keeping his AC/Heat. The rest of it can go away and I would prefer to run a 6.0.
The Gen V engines have slightly taller heads due to the direct injection. The engine mounts, water pump loaction and a few other things are different too. The good news is the Gev V swap is turning out to be less work the Gen IV. The harness layout, engine frame mounts and electronics are proving to be easier to implement.

As far as torque management it is there to protect your components. Axle clunk protection, shift torque, power braking....it's meant to keep from breaking parts but not limit performance. Torque management will not leave you with a dead pedal on the highway like traction control will. Mitch says this Gen V pulls as hard as an LS3 or harder on the bottom. In addition torque management can easily be tuned out with the GM OS. Most modern OS's use torque management to control the powertrain. Engine load is a critical factor in everything a Chrysler OS does. This is why you get odd behavior with SC's when you boost a 1 bar system, the torque management control is affected, especially in the transmission.

As far as a builders kit that is not a problem. Of coarse it is based on what you want and need. We added the VID(vehicle ID) form onto our website, it's in the downloads page. Fill it out indicating what you want and send it too me, I will get you a quote. A Gen IV 6.0 swap is still the best bang for your buck IMO. 370 HP with a modern 6 speed transmission that will run 250-300,000 miles on regular gas. A low mileage 6.0 L96 with a 6l80(or 90) can be had for $3-3,500. The stock radiator and fan will work if you are not in a hot climate and do not tow. We can eliminate the BCM package so you will not have Cruise Control, Tapshift or Tow modes.

I want to say something about the 6l80 modes in the manual gate. Most guys don't realize the 6l80 has good features even without Tapshift. When in the manual gate you have at least three seperate modes, it does depend on the OS though. First mode is what I call gearlock. Whatever gear you are in when you go from drive into manual will get locked in. This means if you are climbing a hill and the transmission is hunting between 5th and 6th, drop it in the manual gate when in 5th and it will lock it there. If the transmission is forced to downshift it will, but it will not upshift. If you come to a stop in the manual gate the transmission will revert to a Sport or different shift pattern. Depending on the OS the pattern is different but it is programmable. 2cd, 3rd and even 4th gear starts can be programmed into this mode. Normally with the stock tune the shifts in the Sport mode are delayed and limited to 3rd or 4th gear. Finally there is manual control. When in the manual gate and moving if you move the tapshift switch you will go into the manual mode. This means one tap or down will shift the transmission one gear. Again like gear lock if the engine is under a load or you are slowing to a stop the TCM will downshift the transmission but not upshift.

We have actually used steering wheel controls for tapshift as far back as 2011 but I do not like it. When the wheel is spinning around off road it is difficult to keep you orientation. We support the Pentstar Bumpshifter in all year JK's. If you have a 2010 or earlier JK you need to purchase a new console to run the 12' shifter and Chrysler keeps raising the prices so keep an eye on eBay for console take outs when a guy replaces his with a Tuffy or other console. Mitch has actually got some Bluetooth controls going on where you can control many functions with your PC or tablet. Bluetooth shifting and dash controls are possible with this technology.

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post #130 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 09:12 AM
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Thanks for the reply Robbie.

Is the Gen V kit going to be as simple on a 3.8 equipped Jeep as it is on the 3.6 equipped Jeeps that you're working on now? Will it even be an option on the older Jeep?

Thanks!


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post #131 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RiverCityOffroad View Post
Thanks for the reply Robbie.

Is the Gen V kit going to be as simple on a 3.8 equipped Jeep as it is on the 3.6 equipped Jeeps that you're working on now? Will it even be an option on the older Jeep?

Thanks!
Yes. The way it is looking now the Gen V swap will be easier than the Gen IV swap in all JK's. The JK in the video is an early JK, I think an 07'. Yes we will support the Gen V in a kit or in house. We already have the hardware done, frame mounts, PS pump mount.... We only have to road test the cruise and tapshift before we offer the kit for sale, it will support 2007-15* Wranglers. One nice thing about our bridge is that it is fully programmable. So going from a TJ, to an early JK, to a late JK, or from a Gen III, to a Gen IV to a Gen V engine simply means programming the firmware in our module for the inputs and outputs, it does the rest.

Another nice thing is the trucks now have the 5.3 L83 and the 6.2 L86, and the architecture is identical from what I can see. So this makes offering a kit simple. TBH as much bottom end power this L86 has I think the L83 5.3 is looking very promising. GM even has the smaller 4.3 baby LS now I feel due to the improvements.The Gen IV 5.3 is a great engine in a light JK, but in a heavy JK it was not the best choice. Now with high compression, Direct Injection, and very importantly Continuous VVT the 5.3 may be a good choice for a heavy JK. I always felt the early 5.3's without VVT(LH6, LY5) ran better than the VVT 5.3's. the non-VVT engines run higher compression for higher cylinder pressures. By adding VVT the compression is lower so you do not build up too much cylinder pressure when the cam is advanced. The upside to this is when you rev it up into the higher rpm ranges the cam phases and you get your cylinder pressure back and a burst of power. The downside to this is you are running lower compression at the lower rpm's. I have two LH6 5.3 non-VVT powered vehicles(Toyota nad a JK) and they run great. Now the Gen V 5.3 not only has high compression and VVT but it has CVVT. This means the ECM can control cylinder pressure throughout the rpm range. This will mean good low end torque, good high rpm operation and everything in-between. There will be no more discrete cam phasing with it's compromise, the ECM will give as much cylinder pressure as the load demands.

On the flip side is cylinder deactivation. Call it MDS, AFM, DOD or whatever it is technology that reduces pumping losses at part throttle. So when your Gen V engine is not under a load it effectively reduces it's displacement in half. It actually works in a light vehicle. I have AFM active on both my LH6's because they are light vehicles. With AFM active our 2008 JKU get about 20 mpg on the highway. Under light throttle you feel it kick in and watch the mpg number jump up. I will say AFM is next to useless on a heavy JK, just turn it off IMO. In the video you may not have noticed but the Gen V was a 4 cylinder when Mitch was at light throttle, and it instantly became a V8 when he got on it.

BTW Don my off-road testing comes next, hopefully later this week. Don't worry no off-road burnouts Actually as we discussed I want to thoroughly test this Gen V swap so it is bulletproof. No overheating or any other issues. You have a relatively heavy 4 door JK, it's black and it's hot out here. I'm going to take it to 8,000 feet and crawl it with the AC on high in 4WD low. We will see how the cooling system does; the Pentstar fan with our new dual pass radiator have proven very effective. I want to see cool temps, not even 235-40*. The LS can easily run at 240* and does not overheat until 250* but with this high compression Direct Injected engine running on regular gas I want to go beyond what is required.

I'm happy to say we had a JK or two on the Rubicon this year with our new cooling system installed. One of the Currie guys told me it was one of the few V8 JK's that went the entire distance with zero cooling issues. Gauge never moved off the half mark and the AC was run the entire trail. I'm told it was over 100* on some parts of the run.

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post #132 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 10:16 AM
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They call it the CTV accessory drive I do not know why.
CTS-V = The high performance Cadillac model. And it makes sense size wise.

From your explanation, it sounds like I ordered the right drive parts. CTS-V accessory drive kit, Corvette balancer and waterpump.

Have you seen the Winters shifters that Radesigns Products modifies for tap shift on the 6l80's? I'm thinking about going this route because I'm probably going to end up having to make my own center console.

Kevin

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post #133 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gt1guy View Post
CTS-V = The high performance Cadillac model. And it makes sense size wise.

From your explanation, it sounds like I ordered the right drive parts. CTS-V accessory drive kit, Corvette balancer and waterpump.

Have you seen the Winters shifters that Radesigns Products modifies for tap shift on the 6l80's? I'm thinking about going this route because I'm probably going to end up having to make my own center console.
One of the great things about our swap is we provide you with a stock OE calibration, so any mod to the engine or transmission that is available on the stock vehicle will work. Your not stuck with a difficult custom tune like a Hemi or SC. Be careful with too much modding though, GM has these calibrations very close to optimal so gaining something here may cost you there. May be reliability, economy, emissions....

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post #134 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 11:03 AM
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One of the great things about our swap is we provide you with a stock OE calibration, so any mod to the engine or transmission that is available on the stock vehicle will work. Your not stuck with a difficult custom tune like a Hemi or SC. Be careful with too much modding though, GM has these calibrations very close to optimal so gaining something here may cost you there. May be reliability, economy, emissions....


Wont be changing calibrations. Was asking about changing the actual mechanical shifter mechanism only.

Kevin

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post #135 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 12:11 PM
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Im getting more pumped by the day to call and order. On my jeep (an 08') Its not my daily and I am not concerned with emissions. Would this make the install any easier or does all the emissions stuff just have to be installed for the sake of the engine? Also one thing I havent seen is will the stock fuel pump for a 3.8 enigne support the 480hp 6.2? I literally just replaced it 50 miles ago.
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post #136 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Im getting more pumped by the day to call and order. On my jeep (an 08') Its not my daily and I am not concerned with emissions. Would this make the install any easier or does all the emissions stuff just have to be installed for the sake of the engine? Also one thing I havent seen is will the stock fuel pump for a 3.8 enigne support the 480hp 6.2? I literally just replaced it 50 miles ago.
The stock fuel pump is maxed out with the 480 HP engine, it will work but if you add more HP it should be upgraded.

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post #137 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 12:47 PM Thread Starter
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Gen V

I just put a few miles on the Gen V 6.2 JKU. Very impressive, it drives different than the Gen IV's. The engine feels more aggressive. With the Gen IV engine the programming kept the rpm's as low as possible, then when you needed to accelerate the transmission would downshift. This annoyed some guys who were use to the older 4 speed automatics.

My first impression with the Gen V is how much torque it has. The torque is instant no matter what rpm you are at, you give it throttle and it goes, feels like a 7 liter engine. I'm sure the Direct Injection and especially the CVVT is responsible for this.

The transmission feels more traditional, it is not so quick to downshift like the Gen IV engines. TBH I have got use to my 6.2 JK and come to like the transmission shift because I drive so conservatively most of the time. But my impression of the Gen V 6.2 is it feels aggressive, it sounds aggressive probably due to the high compression. It has tons of power right off idle and it idles at 550 rpm. I felt the 4 cylinder mode come in several times and it's similar to the Gen IV engines just more aggressive. The brakes worked great even at idle due to the belt driven vacuum pump.

This engine is very impressive and has more power than a JK needs. If the claims are true about the mileage It's hard to think of any other powertrain that can offer so much, and run on regular gas.

The testing will continue. I'll have a video up shortly of the guys dropping the body on a 2015 JKUR, they dropped the body and had it running in less than 15 minutes.

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post #138 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 12:56 PM
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Whats the P/N for the gen 5 engine?
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post #139 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 12:58 PM Thread Starter
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Whats the P/N for the gen 5 engine?
L86

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post #140 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Body drop and running in less than 15 minutes

I see this all the time, so I put a camera on the process. The body is dropped and the engine running in less than 15 minutes.

Now I'm not inferring this swap requires no skill, all swaps do; however, IMO this is not rocket science either. Common sense is the most important thing. In this video there was some extra time taken to run the Atlas 2 cables and the starter motor connector was not snapped in, Mitch caught it in less than a minute.

This JK will get exhaust and be on the road by the weekend. This JK got custom front and rear bumpers, dual batteries, dual ARB compressor, Spod, skid plates and an Atlas 2. This will require a little extra work fabricating the exhaust to clear the Atlas. The 6l90 works great in a 4 door JK but is a little longer than the 6l80. There is no need to section the rear crossmember with the 6l90 like is the case with some other swaps. With the Atlas 4 sometimes sectioning the rear crossmember is required but we do not see the need to run the A4 with the torquey V8 unless you have the need.

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post #141 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 01:07 PM
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I just put a few miles on the Gen V 6.2 JKU. Very impressive, it drives different than the Gen IV's. The engine feels more aggressive. With the Gen IV engine the programming kept the rpm's as low as possible, then when you needed to accelerate the transmission would downshift. This annoyed some guys who were use to the older 4 speed automatics.
Can any programming be done to counter the lower rpm affect? I know with some of the hand held tuners you can adjust the shift points based on speed and pedal percentage applied for both up and down shifts. I do prefer a more aggressive shift schedule. I would definitely be in the category of guys who would like to move the entire shift schedule up 500-1k rpm especially in the lower range of pedal percentage applied and it can fade back to stock levels around 50-60% of pedal pushed.
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post #142 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Can any programming be done to counter the lower rpm affect? I know with some of the hand held tuners you can adjust the shift points based on speed and pedal percentage applied for both up and down shifts. I do prefer a more aggressive shift schedule. I would definitely be in the category of guys who would like to move the entire shift schedule up 500-1k rpm especially in the lower range of pedal percentage applied and it can fade back to stock levels around 50-60% of pedal pushed.
Transmission shifting is fully programmable by an experienced tuner. We work with an LS tuner if you have the need for custom tuning.

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post #143 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 01:41 PM
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The stock fuel pump is maxed out with the 480 HP engine, it will work but if you add more HP it should be upgraded.
What have you done to upgrade the fuel system?

I know a Bosch 044 wont fit inside the stock fuel housing...


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post #144 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
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What have you done to upgrade the fuel system?

I know a Bosch 044 wont fit inside the stock fuel housing...
There are several options. You can run an in tank Walbro or Aeromotive fuel pump with gph rating determined by your need. Then run a Corvette fuel filter with the internal regulator. This set up works great and we use it on build where there is not a regulator in the tank. Run the filter/regulator as close to the tank as you can. One of the reasons the single line fuel supply was adopted is if you run fuel to the rail and back it gets heated by the engine and when returned to the tank creates higher EVAP emissions due tot he higher temperatures. Keeping the filter/regulator close to the tank helps keep it cool.

For more serious HP you can run a low pressure feeder pump in the tank to an external high pressure pump with a billet fuel pressure regulator. Do not use the JK pump as a feeder it does not flow enough.

The Gen IV and V LS engines run a variable speed fuel pump to control rail pressure, Jeep runs a regulator in the tank. In either case it is a single line fuel supply system unlike the Gen III engines which have a fuel pump regulator on the rail and a return line.

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post #145 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 02:25 PM
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Two more questions that may be relevant here:

- Did the Gen 5 truck motors come with cylinder deactivation? My understanding is that this is leading to oil loss. Can this be deactivated in programming?
- Gearing? 4.56 and 35s work for with the big Gen V for a daily driver? Want to be able to crawl and cruise at 80.

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post #146 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Z-OR View Post
Two more questions that may be relevant here:

- Did the Gen 5 truck motors come with cylinder deactivation? My understanding is that this is leading to oil loss. Can this be deactivated in programming?
- Gearing? 4.56 and 35s work for with the big Gen V for a daily driver? Want to be able to crawl and cruise at 80.
Yes the Gen V engines use enhanced AFM. I just drove the Gen V 6.2 LS JK and was in 4 cylinder mode about half the time, even at idle. The reason they can do this is the Gen V engine on 4 cylinders actually can produce enough torque due to the high compression and CVVT which allows higher cylinder pressures. With the Gen IV it was near impossible to accelerate a heavy JK in 4 cylinder mode before it would kick into 8 cylinders; however, I found myself driving around the block as a 3.1 liter engine with the Gen V engine. Hopefully this will translate into better mpg. AFM can be disabled. As far as oil loss I do not know I do not have enough experience yet, but I ususlly find GM good at addressing problems quickly since they make so many engines. The Gen IV engines had AFM issues at first regarding oil pressure but it was quickly resolved.

I like 4:10's and 35's. This Gen V engine has so much torque you would rip the tires off with 4:56's, but it would crawl great. Remember you have a 4:1 first gear in the 6l80 so launching a heavy JK is not an issue, with a .67 OD you will cruise at about 2,000 [email protected]

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post #147 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 03:10 PM
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What about the emissions stuff I spoke of earlier? I know you mentioned programming out the 2 downstream 02 sensors and that is something I want to do for sure. What about the evap mods and parts that have to be added? Can I eliminate doing that without issues?
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post #148 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
What about the emissions stuff I spoke of earlier? I know you mentioned programming out the 2 downstream 02 sensors and that is something I want to do for sure. What about the evap mods and parts that have to be added? Can I eliminate doing that without issues?
You can eliminate any emissions you want but I do not recommend it. If you disable the EVAP system you may smell fuel on the trail or in your garage. I like to run the rear O2's for various reasons, remember the rear O2's can be used for fuel control as well as Cat monitoring. These emission systems really do not affect performance so I would leave them active and remain compliant. On the 480 HP engine it can be difficult to find Cats that will hold together, you need to get some good quality high flow Cats like off a Corvette.

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post #149 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by MoTech View Post
You can eliminate any emissions you want but I do not recommend it. If you disable the EVAP system you may smell fuel on the trail or in your garage. I like to run the rear O2's for various reasons, remember the rear O2's can be used for fuel control as well as Cat monitoring. These emission systems really do not affect performance so I would leave them active and remain compliant. On the 480 HP engine it can be difficult to find Cats that will hold together, you need to get some good quality high flow Cats like off a Corvette.
I will not be running cats, is that going to be a problem?
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post #150 of 420 Old 08-18-2016, 04:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dkjeep View Post
I will not be running cats, is that going to be a problem?
It's not really a "problem". On Gen IV and V engines the rear O2's can be used to fine tune fuel trims, determin Cat temps and for diagnostic information. For example the rear O2 is considered protected from the engine by the Cat. For this reason the ECM may use the rear O2 to check the performance of the upstream O2 to diagnose a fault. Removing the downstream O2 removes this monitoring so it not so much a problem as it is less functionality.

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