MoTech Gen V LS Conversion - Page 4 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #76 of 420 Old 08-13-2016, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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While we haven't had any issues with the iron/aluminum or all aluminum engines I have my opinions.

The 6 liter truck engines cost less to maintain than the 6.2. The L96 uses regular gas and conventional oil where the 6.2 engines prefer premium gss and full synthetic oil.

We have shipped swaps to Daytona and Galveston where a year after the swap the bottom of the engines are rusted and corroded, it's a harsh environment.

There are some special purpose engines like the LC8 6.0 that uses non corrosive components because it can run on alcohol, natural gas and even propane. Another factor is the LS engines run so long they are in service longer than many engines. 300,000 miles is not unheard of with a LS 6.0.

Everyone has an opinion but I feel the iron 6.0 is a great expedition engine. The stability of the iron block and ability to run virtually any gas out makes it versatile. I don't feel the iron/aluminum construction is an issue the architecture is very stable. With box construction and crossbolted mains it is very rigid. I have many swaps up North like Newfoundland and Alaska where they seem to prefer the iron blocks.

If in cold temperatures I prefer a non AFM engine. The L96, LS3, L92 and L9H are non AFM. AFM lifters are sensitive to high oil pressure. Early on lifters were damaged from cold starts below 20*f. If oil pressure exceeds 75 psi the lifters can be damaged. GM installed a separate oil pressure regulators in the oil pan on DOD engines to help cold start issues. By 2010 GM pretty much sorted the issue by installing oil pan regulators in all engines and lifter design improvements.

As far as corrosion and rusted bolts it happens in all engines. The LS does not have specific problem areas like the manifold and T-Stat housing bolts on the Jeep I6 4.0 that I know of.

Extracting or drilling out a bolt is a PITA regardless if your working with iron or aluminum. With some heat and penetrating oil a lot of broken bolts can be avoided.

As long as you maintain your engine I don't think you'll have and issue with either engine.
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post #77 of 420 Old 08-14-2016, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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Nucleophile I felt it was more appropriate to respond to you in our thread.

We have been doing Pentstar JK LS swaps since 2012. We havr offered a 2012+ kit since 2014. Our Gen III kit made the Pentstar swap virtually plug and play in 2015.

We currently not only support Pentstar JK AC but we also support automatic AC modes and automatic fan blower modes.

We do offer a needs list and basic instructions however the install has become very straight forward. We do not offer "stereo" type instructions yet but we will.

Back in 2013-4 when RPM visited our shop and purchased a couple kits we were developing a can bridge. I'm happy to say our Gen IV MoTech module incorporates a CAN bridge and CAN interpreter. The bridge allows the two CAN networks to receive and transmit for bi-directional communication. Thr CAN interrupter allows CAN messages to be converted to discrete outputs to control things like lights and solenoids.

Attached is a picture of our prototype Gen IV MoTech module. It is actually a double layed board due to the number of processors and the fact it uses a through hole design. The production board should be SMT all machine made, potted and sealed.

This module we consider a universal bridge. This module can process analog, digital, CAN and even serial data. Mitch has had success incorporating serial interior functions such as driver displays, Bluetooth and computer connections. Were talking more than just JK's here. We're talking Toyota's, Porsche's, Mazda....

We have to be careful though, if we make one can network dependent on the other there are risks.

Currently we run two independent networks that are pure. Years ago we had the ability to run just the JK gas pedal but for safety we chose not too.

Remember we have come a long way from the beginning days, we were the only ones with functional circuits that we all learned from, we did the diligence.

The Gen V swap has actually simplified the swap. Mounts are simplier and we run virtually all the OE GM wiring which just plugs it into the JK, this will, and has lowered the price of the kit and install.

Look forward to lower price's, easier install and better documentation.
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post #78 of 420 Old 08-14-2016, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoTech View Post
Nucleophile I felt it was more appropriate to respond to you in our thread.

We have been doing Pentstar JK LS swaps since 2012. We havr offered a 2012+ kit since 2014. Our Gen III kit made the Pentstar swap virtually plug and play in 2015.
With all due respect, you and I have been communicating about an LS swap in my 2013 JKUR for around 2 years. (I blew away most of my PMs to make room.) I even filled out your form to be "on the list" when the Gen III kit was ready. I filled it out a long time ago. I still have the paper copy I scanned and emailed in. I heard nothing. Crickets.

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We currently not only support Pentstar JK AC but we also support automatic AC modes and automatic fan blower modes.

We do offer a needs list and basic instructions however the install has become very straight forward. We do not offer "stereo" type instructions yet but we will.
I have looked at your needs list and it seems pretty generic and somewhat dated. And I don't think decent instructions is beyond expectations. Your shop has done hundreds of these. This, while not my first engine swap by any means, will be my first LS into a JK swap


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Back in 2013-4 when RPM visited our shop and purchased a couple kits we were developing a can bridge. I'm happy to say our Gen IV MoTech module incorporates a CAN bridge and CAN interpreter. The bridge allows the two CAN networks to receive and transmit for bi-directional communication. Thr CAN interrupter allows CAN messages to be converted to discrete outputs to control things like lights and solenoids.

Attached is a picture of our prototype Gen IV MoTech module. It is actually a double layed board due to the number of processors and the fact it uses a through hole design. The production board should be SMT all machine made, potted and sealed.

This module we consider a universal bridge. This module can process analog, digital, CAN and even serial data. Mitch has had success incorporating serial interior functions such as driver displays, Bluetooth and computer connections. Were talking more than just JK's here. We're talking Toyota's, Porsche's, Mazda....

We have to be careful though, if we make one can network dependent on the other there are risks.
I have a background in networking, mainly WAN though. The LAN stuff, while interesting, was never my focus. I will say this though, sometimes simpler is better. Sometimes stuff is made overly complex for the sake of complex. Its why Ethernet blew away ATM and several other protocols for WANs. Its stupid simple. And simple works. Complex is great when it works. Sucks when it doesn't. Long way of saying I don't know if your approach is better or worse that RPM's approach. In the long run, the market place will decide.

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Currently we run two independent networks that are pure. Years ago we had the ability to run just the JK gas pedal but for safety we chose not too.

Remember we have come a long way from the beginning days, we were the only ones with functional circuits that we all learned from, we did the diligence.

The Gen V swap has actually simplified the swap. Mounts are simplier and we run virtually all the OE GM wiring which just plugs it into the JK, this will, and has lowered the price of the kit and install.
I am glad the Gen V has simplified things even further. The instructions should be all that much easier to produce.


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Look forward to lower price's, easier install and better documentation.
Me too.

I feel like I am getting sucked into an argument that I don't want to be in the middle of. I am trying to stick to facts and data, and not opinions and conjecture. Truth of the matter is I have wanted to do an LS conversion for a long time. But I am not willing to figure it out as I go along. I expect a reasonable set of instructions. I don't think that is unreasonable, but its your business and your business decision as to what to offer in the market place (as I have said repeatedly) I am not criticizing what you have done or not done. Just trying to state facts.

You have brought an amazing product to the JK world. You have blazed a path forward few would have thought even possible years ago. I tip my hat to you.
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post #79 of 420 Old 08-14-2016, 08:03 PM
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I feel like I am getting sucked into an argument that I don't want to be in the middle of. I am trying to stick to facts and data, and not opinions and conjecture. Truth of the matter is I have wanted to do an LS conversion for a long time. But I am not willing to figure it out as I go along. I expect a reasonable set of instructions. I don't think that is unreasonable, but its your business and your business decision as to what to offer in the market place (as I have said repeatedly) I am not criticizing what you have done or not done. Just trying to state facts.

You have brought an amazing product to the JK world. You have blazed a path forward few would have thought even possible years ago. I tip my hat to you.
You cry about wanting instructions that read like putting together a set of legos. Nobody is twisting your arm to spend your $$$ here. You obviously want the best conversion kit out there so this is why you are here. News flash, you're gonna have to use your noggin a bit with this one. If I were Motech I wouldn't even sell you a kit because I already know the time I am going to have to invest on the phone with you would not be worth the measly amount I made from you.
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post #80 of 420 Old 08-14-2016, 09:01 PM
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You cry about wanting instructions that read like putting together a set of legos. Nobody is twisting your arm to spend your $$$ here. You obviously want the best conversion kit out there so this is why you are here. News flash, you're gonna have to use your noggin a bit with this one. If I were Motech I wouldn't even sell you a kit because I already know the time I am going to have to invest on the phone with you would not be worth the measly amount I made from you.
Oh trust me, nobody twists my arm to do anything I don't want to do, especially when it comes to spending money.

And yes, I want the best conversion kit out there...........is that something to criticize me over???? Should I instead want the shittiest one out there? I fail to see your point.

And you are probably right. Motech wouldn't sell me a kit at this point regardless. But ironically your reasoning as to why is somewhat contradictory. The reason I feel adequate instructions are necessary is exactly because I don't want to spend time on the phone with Motech during an install. That just creates delays and wastes a lot of time with voicemails and phone tag.

I am sure by now I have pissed off Robbie to the point where I am banned from being a future customer. If so, so be it.

And I am quite familiar with using my noggin. As I posted before, I have been involved in a number of hemi swaps. I was involved in one of the first, if not the first hemi swap with a 2011 545 trans that Chrysler changed the valve body in but never bothered to tell anyone. Suddenly, for reasons nobody could figure out, the jeep went into limp mode. It took AEV about a week to figure out the new valve body didn't work with their software. My point being is that things change. Problems arise. If time were not an issue, what the hell, just work through it all. But time is an issue for me. Maybe not for you or maybe not for most people. But grinding thru problems one at a time, especially when the solution is known, but just not communicated (instructions) is not my idea of a good time.

If you feel like I am "crying" about instructions, well you are entitled to your opinion. And maybe most people would agree with you. I don't really care. As I have said about 10 times now, its Robbie's decision as to whether or not to produce instructions. He has said repeatedly he fully intends to, so I guess at least he agrees with me, on some level.

Probably all for not anyway. I am getting sick of this whole F'ing topic.

I wanted to respond to your attack, but that is it for me. I am done. I will wait and see what transpires in the market place. I was trying to move the ball forward for those of us who want to do our own swap but don't want to drag it out for weeks and weeks. I guess that is too much to ask, at least in your opinion.
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post #81 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 03:35 AM
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post #82 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 07:12 AM
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Oh trust me, nobody twists my arm to do anything I don't want to do, especially when it comes to spending money....
I hate quoting huge messages so I shortened it a bit. I didnít take you for a fool or an idiot, you seem like a smart guy from what little I have read from you. I like to consider myself the same (at least my mom tells me so) One thing that guys who are thinkers and tinkerers like to do is figure stuff out! I almost revel in the chance to tackle stuff like this knowing the mental and physical challenge that is ahead. I can fully understand if this is your daily driver and you need it to be down as little as possible but letís be honest, if you can afford this swap you can purchase a beater to get around in for a few more weeks.
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post #83 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 09:28 AM
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Rough idea when the billet drives will be shipping with the LS3 kits?

I'm going to pick up my kit through John at Overland Performance.

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post #84 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 10:14 AM
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Oh trust me, nobody twists my arm to do anything I don't want to do, especially when it comes to spending money....
I hate quoting huge messages so I shortened it a bit. I didn?t take you for a fool or an idiot, you seem like a smart guy from what little I have read from you. I like to consider myself the same (at least my mom tells me so) One thing that guys who are thinkers and tinkerers like to do is figure stuff out! I almost revel in the chance to tackle stuff like this knowing the mental and physical challenge that is ahead. I can fully understand if this is your daily driver and you need it to be down as little as possible but let?s be honest, if you can afford this swap you can purchase a beater to get around in for a few more weeks.
Agreed

If you can afford to do a DIY junkyard parts LS swap that will still cost $10k. You can afford a $1000-1500 reliable beater of a DD while you have the JK down. And if your doing a efi engine swap you should be past the point of needing Barnie Style instructions.

Or better yet find a shop to do it, local shop to me that is experienced with MoTech swap gave me an awsome price and could have it done in a week if I made an appointment on a slow week at the shop.
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post #85 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 10:53 AM
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First off the notion that you should have to get a beater to drive around because the install instructions arent ironed out is asinine to say the least.

The physical parts included in these kits arent actually all that much (compared to a suspension kit for example) so for the 5K+ price tag, instructions arent too much to ask for.

Second Nucleophile mentioned it earlier. Its not about having a vehicle to drive. It is about tying up a rack at a friend's shop.

For those of you who like to tinker and want this to be more of an adventure, why bother with a swap kit at all? Just engineer it as you go right...

Lastly, if the swap is so simple, then instructions should and could have been written in the time that we have been bickering over the issue. Robbi spends alot of time on customer service so it stands to reason that clean and concise instructions should benefit everyone.

Motech invented the LS swap and I still consider them my #1 choice if funds allowed but I dont have the skills to do my own stunts so having instructions in hand to make the swap go as fast and smooth as possible lowers my final costs. That and waiting for the promised latest gen kit availability has definitely led to a little


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post #86 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 10:53 AM
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Rough idea when the billet drives will be shipping with the LS3 kits?

I'm going to pick up my kit through John at Overland Performance.
You can't go wrong dealing with John .
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post #87 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 12:14 PM
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Agreed

...And if your doing a efi engine swap you should be past the point of needing Barnie Style instructions....
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First off the notion that you should have to get a beater to drive around because the install instructions arent ironed out is asinine to say the least.

The physical parts included in these kits arent actually all that much (compared to a suspension kit for example) so for the 5K+ price tag, instructions arent too much to ask for.

Second Nucleophile mentioned it earlier. Its not about having a vehicle to drive. It is about tying up a rack at a friend's shop.

For those of you who like to tinker and want this to be more of an adventure, why bother with a swap kit at all? Just engineer it as you go right...

Lastly, if the swap is so simple, then instructions should and could have been written in the time that we have been bickering over the issue. Robbi spends alot of time on customer service so it stands to reason that clean and concise instructions should benefit everyone.

Motech invented the LS swap and I still consider them my #1 choice if funds allowed but I dont have the skills to do my own stunts so having instructions in hand to make the swap go as fast and smooth as possible lowers my final costs. That and waiting for the promised latest gen kit availability has definitely led to a little

Jesus Christ, yall both wanted bernie as prez right? The stench of entitlement is so thick between the two of you. Nobody owes you squat including instructions. You don’t like or want it because there aren’t any, don’t buy it. In your case alasha this frees up your friends rack, how convenient!
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post #88 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 12:32 PM
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bumpstick was agreeing with you, but you can still be mad at him too if you'd like

for 7K i'd like to have barney(colored purple) instructions with maybe a 24ct crayon and a bernie sticker


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post #89 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 01:02 PM
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Jesus Christ, yall both wanted bernie as prez right? The stench of entitlement is so thick between the two of you. Nobody owes you squat including instructions. You donít like or want it because there arenít any, donít buy it. In your case alasha this frees up your friends rack, how convenient!
Nucleophile is the one who would use a friends rack. I would be paying for the install. Reading comprehension results in less confusion. The more you know...

Entitlement? So for 5K+ of my hard earned dollars, I am not entitled to instructions? This isnt a set of legos as you mentioned. This is an engine swap. It may be trivial to you but to most its anything but as evidenced by the amount of support Motech has to provide people and shops around the country during the install.


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post #90 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 03:02 PM
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Entitlement? So for 5K+ of my hard earned dollars, I am not entitled to instructions? This isnt a set of legos as you mentioned. This is an engine swap. It may be trivial to you but to most its anything but as evidenced by the amount of support Motech has to provide people and shops around the country during the install.
Its more like $6200 last I called and checked. Bottom line is you know what you are getting into. There is no excuse to get on a public forum and cry about a lack of instructions when you know up front that there basically isn't any! Call the guy and bitch about it to him if you just cant get it out of your system.
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post #91 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 03:15 PM
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Put me down as another person that won't be spending money on an LS swap without instructions. I have an electrical engineering degree and don't want to waste my time re-engineering a swap kit. If I wanted to do the engineering, I wouldn't be paying $6k for a couple of brackets, wiring harness, and programming. Time is valuable and finite.

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post #92 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 03:33 PM Thread Starter
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Hi guys,

Were dropping the body on a 2015 JKUR so Mitch and I thought we would take a short video on how simple this is. I'm not saying instructions or a decent up to date needs list are required, Necuphile has a point about that. My point is this install has got pretty easy.
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post #93 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Jon,

Ronnie and I are pretty laid back guys, IMO neither of us would say such a thing.

Early on due to the enormous investment we had in R&R shops were required to have non-competes with us as you know.

When you came to our shop I opened up to you and showed you our electronics and the work we were doing with the can bus and future simplification. First job was to make this thing work, and we did that, but early on it was a bit complex.

After a swap or two with you I noticed mounts and accessory drives very similar to our on your website. I called you and asked you about them and you informed me you were purchasing them from a guy in California. I asked you who that was and you stated you could not remember. At that point I had to make a business decision just like I did with a couple of other vendors, did you feel I should still support you?

It was clear when you were here you were looking for information IMO. Ronnie recalls you telling him the hardware will be easy but the electronics would take time. I do not believe Ronnie told you what you say but I do believe he was offended by that attitude. You requested an extra harness to replace a defective harness early on, we overnighted one too you and you agreed to return the defective harness, it never got returned. Hmmmm

To some degree most LS JK swaps out there(not Bruiser) have some MoTech technology in them. I applaud your efforts to invent and improve, if it gets into a non-compete conflict that should be between us and not on the forum. That is what attorney's are for and I hate attorneys and litigation.

Jon my customers are my most important concern. I have nothing against you or your shop. I'm sure you are a hard working guy like me and we all have families to support. I hope this is win-win for all of us but understand we have the right to protect our developments. Many, many long hours went into this so we could offer these forum members and other what I believe to be the best powertrain out there for the JK. You know that because you were doing superchargers at the time and understood the benefit of the LS series engine in a JK.

I believe the new Gen V engine are a step up and we should be drive one this week, look for updates. That is why I started this thread, not to bring you into it.

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post #94 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Rough idea when the billet drives will be shipping with the LS3 kits?

I'm going to pick up my kit through John at Overland Performance.
Thanks for the question. The truck billet brackets should be on an engine later this week for testing. The billet LS3 brackets will follow, the AC compressor and other parts are identical to the truck so it should go quickly.

The brackets were machined by our programmer for testing and after running we will make any final changes and run them on our in house machines.

You do have another choice, look at the video I just posted. We have now run dozens of GM drives with good results. I still feel, as do my guys, our drive lays out better and uses the accessories, hoses and lines you already have to save $. In addition most of these parts are available easily at parts stores.

We invested in a large hydraulic hose press. It nets factory like crimps and our AC and PS hoses look like OE now. Were having fittings custom made and improving the design for a better look.

I feel you will be happy with either the GM or MT drive but you will have to wait for the LS3 MT drive.

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post #95 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 04:33 PM
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Any idea about the price difference between the L83 and the L86?


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post #96 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 04:43 PM
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Its more like $6200 last I called and checked. Bottom line is you know what you are getting into. There is no excuse to get on a public forum and cry about a lack of instructions when you know up front that there basically isn't any! Call the guy and bitch about it to him if you just cant get it out of your system.
The point of a forum is an exchange of ideas. In this particular case, it is positive feedback to a vendor on how to improve a product. If you think that type of feedback doesnt belong on a forum, then I think you are on the wrong site. WayOfLife may be more to your tastes...


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post #97 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Here it is 2 3/4 years short of 3 years

I was going to get some drone footage but it's 105* out and didn't want to melt it.

Anyway it is amazingly strong. This is literally the first drive out of the shop; the first functional Gen V LS JK Direct Injection, Continuous Variable Valve Timing and the Vacumn pump all worked perfect. If the mileage claims are true this may be the ultimate Jk engine, I'm excited to drive it.


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post #98 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 05:36 PM
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holy shit! a jeep that moves when you press the skinny pedal. that's a stock 6.2?


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post #99 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 06:33 PM
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Feedback: 0 reviews

Im really happy with the power. I was afraid to get on it to hard since that was really the first test drive. It has so much torque and I didnt feel the weight of the big wheels and tires. The wiring is super simple now and I feel like anyone can install it. Its plug and play for the most part. We made a video today demonstrating how easy it is to tap into the wires on the body harness. Both the gen IV and gen v will be very easy install on the wiring side of things which is what alot of people worry about. I'll post the video shortly. I'm not the best at speaking on camera but I did my best
motechtech is offline  
post #100 of 420 Old 08-15-2016, 06:53 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: KC, MO
Age: 41
Posts: 107
Feedback: 1 reviews

You did well, Mitch. It's good to see the evolution. I picked my Jeep up from the old shop just over a year ago and it's been awesome. However, I can see the incremental improvements MoTech has made in the short time I've had mine home and I'm happy to see you guys continue to move forward and make a fantastic product. Keep it up.
rgeorge33 is offline  
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