MoTech Gen V LS Conversion - Page 3 - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #51 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 09:49 AM
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post #52 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 10:56 AM
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Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Majority would agree the MoTech kit is well-designed and goes together nicely. The response time on inquiries during installation is pretty fair as well. I also commend you for expanding your product offering. However, I do share the same sentiment as nucleophile and with first hand experience.

I had a local shop do my install because of the proximity, my relationship with the owner, and hope to bring in more motor swaps. The installer praised the kit but his exact words were that he would not recommend it because there are no instructions. He followed all the videos online but they are old and on a a 6.2 swap so he guessed a lot and called MoTech a lot (all of which took time). The shop lost interest in becoming a MoTech certified installer as a result.

Something to consider here Robbi if you are growing, expanding new products, and possibly adding staff; consider having your next tech hire spend the first few weeks capturing pictures and notes for a standard or most popular install (I assume 6.0L and 6L80 based on your most common recommendation). You can then turn these into instructions fairly quickly. If you have the pictures and steps documented, it would be relatively cheap to outsource the instructions as well. Alternately, you can outsource the instructions entirely....whatever makes sense for you.

I see the hemi swaps having a competitive advantage over the LS swaps because of the ease of installation and frankly I would like to see MoTech catch up here.
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post #53 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Exactly. I applaud the quest to forge into new offerings. I also realize that there are only so many cycles available in your organization. New product development is time intensive and that means writing instructions (boring at best, arduous is more like it) falls to the bottom of the priority list. And that means more waiting for potential customers like me.

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Originally Posted by nocoastfocus View Post
Majority would agree the MoTech kit is well-designed and goes together nicely. The response time on inquiries during installation is pretty fair as well. I also commend you for expanding your product offering. However, I do share the same sentiment as nucleophile and with first hand experience.

I had a local shop do my install because of the proximity, my relationship with the owner, and hope to bring in more motor swaps. The installer praised the kit but his exact words were that he would not recommend it because there are no instructions. He followed all the videos online but they are old and on a a 6.2 swap so he guessed a lot and called MoTech a lot (all of which took time). The shop lost interest in becoming a MoTech certified installer as a result.

Something to consider here Robbi if you are growing, expanding new products, and possibly adding staff; consider having your next tech hire spend the first few weeks capturing pictures and notes for a standard or most popular install (I assume 6.0L and 6L80 based on your most common recommendation). You can then turn these into instructions fairly quickly. If you have the pictures and steps documented, it would be relatively cheap to outsource the instructions as well. Alternately, you can outsource the instructions entirely....whatever makes sense for you.

I see the hemi swaps having a competitive advantage over the LS swaps because of the ease of installation and frankly I would like to see MoTech catch up here.
I think you are onto something here. Technical writing is a unique skill set. Contracting out that work could make a lot of sense. There are people who specialize in this area and know how to translate technical, tedious processes into easy to follow instructions via words and pictures.

I am not a big fan of trying to use video for instructional purposes. Generally, way too much focus is on the video and not the information conveyed. One perfect example of this was something I watched recently. A professional mechanic produced a video on replacing a part on a car. Its a nasty job on a good day. He set up a camera and that showed the car on a lift in the background. For each step he came up to the camera and said "now I am going to remove the axle" and then went and did it, showing not a damn thing about HOW to remove the axle!

Now I am sure your team will do better than this. However, I think it takes someone with specific skills to really communicate the key pieces of information.

I don't want to re-start the hemi vs LS debate (I am in your camp on the LS being the better solution) but when you do an AEV hemi swap, you get a complete list of every single thing you need to source from Mopar, down to the nut and bolt level, with part numbers. Then you get a complete set of detailed instructions. You start at step one and finish and step 71. (or whatever) Nothing is left to chance or guessing. From exactly where the motor mounts go to exactly how to fill the cooling system so there is no air in it is covered in the instructions.

I am not saying you have to duplicate what AEV does, but it should be a bench mark as to what is needed to make a consumer level swap kit viable in the marketplace.
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post #54 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALASHA View Post
Robbi, I think you are misinterpreting Nucleophile's point. Its not about preventing you from diversifying and creating new swaps. The more power to you for doing that. If the market supports it (which it looks like it does) then of course you should pursue it.

The point is there exists a large demographic that wishes to do this swap on their own. They need clear and concise instructions to do so. Taking the time up front to make those instructions will in turn lead to more sales and more importantly less customer service time required to help those undertaking the swap with "basic" instructions.
Got it. I feel now that we are going to market this for the DIY consumer or shop the of their choice proper instructions are required.

I agree on the videos they can get dated where written instructions can be updated. I have done swaps using most of the available kits out there including Hemi's so I am familiar with what is out there.

I feel the combination of the Gen III kit combined with proper instructions will bring this to a Hemi level install. The Hemi does require mods the LS does not and Visa-Versa.

As far as needs lists and part numbers we have them and will integrate them into a comprehensive set of instructions. We'll get some new videos up to supplement the written instructions since sometimes a picture is better than words.
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post #55 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 02:26 PM
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Got it. I feel now that we are going to market this for the DIY consumer or shop the of their choice proper instructions are required.

I agree on the videos they can get dated where written instructions can be updated. I have done swaps using most of the available kits out there including Hemi's so I am familiar with what is out there.

I feel the combination of the Gen III kit combined with proper instructions will bring this to a Hemi level install. The Hemi does require mods the LS does not and Visa-Versa.

As far as needs lists and part numbers we have them and will integrate them into a comprehensive set of instructions. We'll get some new videos up to supplement the written instructions since sometimes a picture is better than words.
Great news!! Can I get an idea of when this will be completed??
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post #56 of 420 Old 08-10-2016, 05:19 PM Thread Starter
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Very soon, working on them now.

Quick video of the Gen V startup in chassis with body on. We'll have shafts tomorrow and should be driving it this weekend. Heater hoses, intake tube, etc. are just temporary.

Picture of the Gen V drive. We have the offset water pump, alternator, AC compressor, PS pump and vacuum pump. Just like GM we are running 3 separate belts, two are very short 4 grove S-Belts.


For those planning on a LS3 swap here's the drive.


The LS3 fits the JK perfect for a clean install, and it is light.

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post #57 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 07:11 AM
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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
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post #58 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 07:21 AM
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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
same club as i...and multiple mechanic/engineer/jack of all trades friends and family. i want to learn during this so if something happens i might remotely have a clue as to how to diagnose problems


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post #59 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 07:32 AM
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Add me to the instructions would help sell a kit club. I would love for you to install it but between the cost of your time and getting the Jeep halfway across the country it's just not going to happen.

I have a pretty good source for engines locally and know some people with two post lifts so it'd be a no brainer.
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same club as i...and multiple mechanic/engineer/jack of all trades friends and family. i want to learn during this so if something happens i might remotely have a clue as to how to diagnose problems
There are multiple reasons to take this project on yourself.

1. Cost. Not only the labor to install the LS but the cost of transportation to and from vegas.

2. Time. Your jeep is not out of pocket for weeks, assuming you have your shit together when you start your conversion.

3. Knowledge. When I did my hemi conversion I never had any trouble with it (save for a failed cat) but I was able to help other people who had problems either during or after their conversion.

4. Pride. Nothing was more satisfying to me than running into a group of wheelers on a trail and getting into a discussion about my hemi conversion. Invariably someone would ask "who did the conversion?" My answer was...............I did.
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post #60 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 08:06 AM
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It's easy to go from one drive to the other, we will need to supply new hoses and lines.

The Pentstar fan is enough for most applications even with light towing.

Keep an eye out for some extreme cooling options soon.

Do you mean the fan is enough with the stock radiator? Does this require me to send anything in for re-programming? I have EFI live but I don't really know much about programming with it.

Thanks again,
Sean
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post #61 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 10:31 AM Thread Starter
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Do you mean the fan is enough with the stock radiator? Does this require me to send anything in for re-programming? I have EFI live but I don't really know much about programming with it.

Thanks again,
Sean
Hi Sean, as I remember you were in the great white North where temps are not like here. We just had some 105* temps while raining

The stock radiator can only exchange so much heat so the first step is go with the HD dual pass radiator and stock fan. This works well in most 5.3 and 6.0's if you don't tow. Don't go with a radiator to thick because the stock fan will not pull through it.

The next step is add the Pentstar fan, this will increase cfm from about 2,500 to over 3,500 cfm. This does require the fan tables be programmed into your GM ECM, we will do it for free if you have our kit.

Actually the first step should be to check the AC condenser for mud and debris. Also do not block the grille, I cannot emphasize this enough. No grille inserts, sink the winch, no lights or license plates to deflect air away from the grille and over the hood. I have LS3's here and in Phoenix running cool with the Pentstar fan and all sorts of grille obstructions but you can really hear the fan winding up. Remove the obstructions and the fan works less. You can tell if air deflecting over the hood is an issue if the faster you go the hotter it gets, this indicates the aerodynamic flow is being diverted away from the grille openings; and when you slow down the air returns through the grille.

Finally we have some extreme cooling solutions for Hemi's, or and V8, SC JK that will increase the cooling system capacity. Look for it soon.
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post #62 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 12:21 PM
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Jesus I cant friggin wait until later this year to call and thrown down on a DIY kit. Its happening... cant barely contain myself.
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post #63 of 420 Old 08-11-2016, 08:20 PM
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Jesus I cant friggin wait until later this year to call and thrown down on a DIY kit. Its happening... cant barely contain myself.
What engine are you going with? I am hoping I can pull this off next year also!!!
Where are you located at? I really want to find someone that has done the 6.0 swap so I can see if that will be enough engine for me.

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post #64 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 08:15 AM
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The 6.0 in my GMC 3/4 ton pulls my 7000lb trailer with 2 motorbikes in the back of the truck doing 80mph down the I-15.......If that doesn't make you happy in a Jeep I don't know what would haha.

I did the 5.3 and sometimes want to upgrade but my wife would leave me.

Sean
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post #65 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 12:12 PM
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What engine are you going with? I am hoping I can pull this off next year also!!!
Where are you located at? I really want to find someone that has done the 6.0 swap so I can see if that will be enough engine for me.
In the next month or two I will be buying one of the 6.2, 480hp ls3 crate engines. It will be the first anchor piece then if all works out by mid december I will be spending the $$$ at motech.
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post #66 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 01:47 PM
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The 6.0 in my GMC 3/4 ton pulls my 7000lb trailer with 2 motorbikes in the back of the truck doing 80mph down the I-15.......If that doesn't make you happy in a Jeep I don't know what would haha.

I did the 5.3 and sometimes want to upgrade but my wife would leave me.

Sean
I hear ya! But if I'm going to spend the money I want to do it right the first time and not wish i would have went with a 6.2ls3 or even just the 6.2 from a yukon or whatever. Someone please let me drive their 6.0 ls jk!!!

08 JKU 6.0 LC8 6L80 Atlas 2 39" KM3's on Trilogy race beadlocks, prorock 44,rcv's arb front. rock jock 60 rear 40spline shafts,arb 5.13's and a bunch of other stuff
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post #67 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 01:49 PM
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In the next month or two I will be buying one of the 6.2, 480hp ls3 crate engines. It will be the first anchor piece then if all works out by mid december I will be spending the $$$ at motech.
Nice! You going with a crate 6l80 also?

08 JKU 6.0 LC8 6L80 Atlas 2 39" KM3's on Trilogy race beadlocks, prorock 44,rcv's arb front. rock jock 60 rear 40spline shafts,arb 5.13's and a bunch of other stuff
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post #68 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 03:16 PM
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Crate, re-man, or low mile 6l80e yes. Haven't made my mind up on that yet.
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post #69 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 04:17 PM
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I would really like to see a; performance comparison : fuel economy : price comparison of the L96, L92/L94, and the L83... What's going to be the best value?
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post #70 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 06:13 PM
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I would really like to see a; performance comparison : fuel economy : price comparison of the L96, L92/L94, and the L83... What's going to be the best value?
I don't think I would be doing this for fuel economy.

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post #71 of 420 Old 08-12-2016, 07:41 PM
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I would really like to see a; performance comparison : fuel economy : price comparison of the L96, L92/L94, and the L83... What's going to be the best value?
Me too! I like that the 6.0 runs on 87 octane and is a cast iron block, just seems like it would more of a workhorse than the Ls3 and maybe more durable?

08 JKU 6.0 LC8 6L80 Atlas 2 39" KM3's on Trilogy race beadlocks, prorock 44,rcv's arb front. rock jock 60 rear 40spline shafts,arb 5.13's and a bunch of other stuff
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I don't think I would be doing this for fuel economy.
We have a L83 powertrain in the shop now. Let's not forget the Gen V engines are evolutionary not revolutionary successors of the Gen IV engines.

From what I can see the Gen V engines are slightly more powerful but a priority was placed on efficiency. The Gen V engines have Direct Injection for maximum combustion efficiency. DI allows high compression which leads to high cylinder pressures, Continuous Variable Cam Phasing maximizes available torque at all rpm's, Enhanced Multiple Displacement means your driving around a 2.6 liter engine under light loads.

And it doesn't end there on production vehicles the PS pump has been replaced with electric steering. Even the alternator has a one way bearing to reduce drag. GM went through a lot of effort to get efficiency from the Gen V engines.

We're already seeing 20 mpg with 5.3's in light JK's with stock tires. Heavy JK's do not get 20 mpg but get similar or slightly better than stock engines with much more power. I would not be surprised, and would hope, we outperform the stock engines mpg with the Gen V engines by 20%.

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post #73 of 420 Old 08-13-2016, 03:20 PM
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Whats the price difference between a L96 and a L83 going to be?


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post #74 of 420 Old 08-13-2016, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Whats the price difference between a L96 and a L83 going to be?
Not much, the price of the Gen V 5.3's is dropping rapidly. What remains to be seen is how the Gen V 5.3 will handle a heavy JK. The CVVT and DI will help a lot but will it be better than the extra displacement of the 6.0?

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post #75 of 420 Old 08-13-2016, 08:10 PM
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For long term durability and maintenance would it be better to go with a iron 6.0 or aluminum 6.2 engine? I work on some really rusted out 6.0 blocks on plow trucks and have also delt with bolts seizing in aluminum heads...

08 JKU 6.0 LC8 6L80 Atlas 2 39" KM3's on Trilogy race beadlocks, prorock 44,rcv's arb front. rock jock 60 rear 40spline shafts,arb 5.13's and a bunch of other stuff
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