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post #1 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Light issue on fenders

So, I just recently installed the bushwhacker tube fenders, however when I hooked up the LED lights on the side of the fender, they do not come on when i turn on my lights or my blinker (yes even when the jeep is started). Anyone have this same issue? I had to do a little re-wiring because of a mess up, I am just wondering if the lights could be bad themselves or because of my fuck up that the way it is designed has be compromised and won't work that way i have set up? If that's the case anyone have the part number or know where I can get just the replacement side lights (2011 2DR JK Sport). Thanks.
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post #2 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 04:44 PM
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Mine do the same thing. Although, I could have sworn they worked perfectly when I installed them. I modified mine before the wackers so that the side DOT light function as a blinker and running light as well. Well, no so much of a function anymore. I haven't had time to screw around with it to see what's up. It was working perfectly before the fenders install.
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post #3 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 04:49 PM
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Try swapping the wires, the led only works if it is wire up correctly.
They need to label which is + and which is -
They only work as marking lights no blinker, that light is on the grill.

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post #4 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Black goes to black and white (with black stripe, i believe is the other wire) go to the matching ones off the jeep. That's how it's set up right now. No worky worky.
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post #5 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mathie84 View Post
Black goes to black and white (with black stripe, i believe is the other wire) go to the matching ones off the jeep. That's how it's set up right now. No worky worky.
Reverse it, It's been awhile since I installed my fenders but I had the same issue. I wired it like you with what made sense and ended up switching them to get them to work.
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post #6 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 05:22 PM Thread Starter
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It'll have to wait until Monday/Tuesday. Stuck on duty today, so I can't leave the ship. But I will def give it a try and see what happens. That just doesn't make sense why it would be reversed like that.
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post #7 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 05:27 PM
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yeah, I didn't read properly that they didn't work at all. Yes, as OP said, LED only work with the wire leads connected correctly. That's where I would start. Test them before you put everything back together.
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post #8 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 06:05 PM
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You have the wires reversed, I did the same thing when I installed mine. I did black to black and it was wrong.

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post #9 of 20 Old 09-23-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
You have the wires reversed, I did the same thing when I installed mine. I did black to black and it was wrong.
correct. an LED is a diode so it will only allow a current one way, turned the other way they do not work so well.

BTW, moving this to the electrical forum
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post #10 of 20 Old 09-25-2012, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by FireTrail741 View Post
Mine do the same thing. Although, I could have sworn they worked perfectly when I installed them. I modified mine before the wackers so that the side DOT light function as a blinker and running light as well. Well, no so much of a function anymore. I haven't had time to screw around with it to see what's up. It was working perfectly before the fenders install.


IIRC, way back when (remember WTF LOL?) there was an issue with teh resistance in that setup where you couldnt just plug & play to get the blinker on the fender unless you added some stuff - going off memory here - but I believe someone did get them to play nicely together. Could be that you need LED's in both the marker lite of the fender and in the turn signal so the entire circuit was consistent. Might want to check the write up library. Should still be in there.

Reminds me that I need to do the blinker mod. Cant believe they still come from the factory without a blinker on the fender. So damn dumb.




Last edited by Dancin Dan; 09-25-2012 at 06:13 AM.
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post #11 of 20 Old 09-28-2012, 10:12 PM
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IIRC, way back when (remember WTF LOL?) there was an issue with teh resistance in that setup where you couldnt just plug & play to get the blinker on the fender unless you added some stuff - going off memory here - but I believe someone did get them to play nicely together. Could be that you need LED's in both the marker lite of the fender and in the turn signal so the entire circuit was consistent. Might want to check the write up library. Should still be in there.

Reminds me that I need to do the blinker mod. Cant believe they still come from the factory without a blinker on the fender. So damn dumb.
The resistor is only needed on the turn signals so the flasher program in the PCM gets fooled into seeing a normal light bulb and indicating a lamp out (via the quicker flash rate, known as "hyperflash"). It is not necessary with marker lights. Even if you do the blinker mod, as long as your turn signal lights are regular incandescent bulbs, there is no need to add resistors. You need to put a 6 Ohm 50-Watt resister in parallel with each blinker light circuit so the PCM detects enough current draw to consider the "bulb" to be good.

The bad news is that when you do this you will not get any notification if the LED fails for any reason, such as damage to the LED "bulb" or wiring.


Backstory (because I like impressing people with my encyclopedic knowledge of useless trivia)

In the old days mechanical flashers used the circuit resistance with a capacitor to set the flash rate on turn signals. When a bulb burned out it changed the resistance of the circuit and caused the remaining bulb and dash turn signal light to flash faster than normal, a condition known as hyperflash. So when your turn signal indicator went dot-dot-dot instead of dash-dash-dash you knew something was wrong and either replaced the $1.00 burned-out bulb or went to a garage or dealership where they would charge you $75 to flush-and-fill your blinker fluid.

LED's do not have the same resistance as incandescent bulbs. Actually, bare LED's themselves have essentially zero resistance at 12V, acting like a dead short across the power supply until they pop from the heat (well under a second). Internal resistors are added to vehicle LED "bulbs" to limit the current (Amperage) to safe levels. This total resistance (LED + built-in resistor) is 10X to 100X higher than an incandescent bulb.

When aftermarket LED upgrades first came out folks discovered the problem and electronic flashers that did not rely on circuit voltage for flash timing were developed to solve the problem. But the thing is that because these electronic flashers operated at a constant rate independent of the circuit resistance, people wouldn't realize that a blinker light wasn't working until someone told them. Of course LED's don't easily burn-out, but the wiring or LED itself could get damaged.

Then later in time the flasher controls went to computerized electronics instead of mechanical flashers. I guess for some reason it was better for consumers to have hundreds of dollars of non-user-serviceable computer power and complex, real-time programming to flash their turn signals than a simple, easily-replaced $10.00 flasher. I digress in my digression.

The engineers weren't dummies and they knew about the problems with the early, simpler electronic flasher modules in notifying the driver of a burnt-out bulb. So at great expense and even more complexity and downstream cost to the consumer, they included current sensing circuitry and monitoring programming to measure the amount of current being drawn by the blinker bulbs. When that current goes lower than expected values, the programming is designed to "think" the bulb is blown out and either produce the "hyperflash" blinking or turn on a "Lamp Out" warning light to alert the driver that something is wrong. (On the JK you get hyperflash.)

So when you replace a 27-watt incandescent bulb (what a typical 3157 turn signal mode draws) with a 3-watt LED, the JK CANBUS doesn't sense enough current draw to believe the bulb is working. This results in the PCM triggering <left|right> <front|rear> TURN SIGNAL SENSOR SIGNAL LOW condition and activating hyperflash to notify the driver. Placing a 6-Ohm resistor across the bulb's turn power and ground lines (i.e., in parallel to the filament) increase the current draw to a high enough level to "simulate" a working incandescent bulb and avoid a problem. The resistor has to be rated for 50W to keep from burning out. It is also a good idea to mount the resistor to a metal surface inside the Jeep to help dissipate heat. Normal turn signal use shouldn't generate enough heat to be a problem, but if you are using your hazard flashers for an extended period the resistors can get quite hot.

Finally, also note that there are "corrected" LED "bulbs" that draw the same 27W as a standard 3157 incandescent. They incorporate the necessary resistors internally to simulate a standard bulb. I'm not sure how long last compared to plain LED "bulbs" with external resistors.

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post #12 of 20 Old 09-29-2012, 06:40 AM
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They went to multiplexing/Canbus not because it is more expensive. When you net it out, it is much cheaper in the long run by far for the manufacturer. Especially when come to diagnosing. Connect a computer to the vehicle and you can pretty much know whats up quickly for the most part. Also, they can can program and add or remove circuits/options with keyboard strokes without much cost at all. All of the main trunk harnessing is the same in all of our vehicles with just added option wiring in some cases. In the long run it is Much more cost effective this way. The old circuitry doesn't make them more money anymore.

We went multiplexing in the fire trucks that we build years ago. I have one set of harnesses that work for every one of my trucks. I just change the input/output programming for what I need in customer added options for the circuitry.
If I want to make the flood lights turn on whenever the fire pump is turned on, a few key strokes and its done! No relays or addition circuitry and wiring to add unless the circuit requires higher current usually. Piece of cake this way. A lot less components, a ton less wiring and a lot less parts that can possibly go bad. My harness has at least half the wire in it as it used to have. Copper isn't cheap! I would not go back ever.

So for the general person that has to deal with this like in our Jeeps, it can be a real pain in the ass. Now if I could get hold of the software to change some of the multiplexing logic in my Jeep I will be golden!
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post #13 of 20 Old 09-29-2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathie84 View Post
Black goes to black and white (with black stripe, i believe is the other wire) go to the matching ones off the jeep. That's how it's set up right now. No worky worky.
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Originally Posted by thedirtman View Post
You have the wires reversed, I did the same thing when I installed mine. I did black to black and it was wrong.
Yep, they are reverse. I tested mine before the final install but the colors go opposite, not sames.

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post #14 of 20 Old 10-02-2012, 10:24 PM
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I'd like to believe you, FireTrail, but I can't.

We get none of that programming in consumer vehicles. And I don't need to plug in a computer to tell me my bulb is turned out.

Customer: My Service Light is on.
Dealer: Let me get a tech to check that out for you.
(... 20 minutes later ...)
Dealer: Your jeep is all ready sir. You had a burned-out foglight bulb.
Customer: Well that's a relief.
Dealer: That will be $135 plus tax.
Customer: WHAT!
Dealer: $120 minimum for use of the StarScan and diagnostics, $13 for the bulb. We cut you a break and didn't charge you labor to replace the bulb.

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post #15 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 04:44 AM
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Well if you cant tell on your own if a light bulb is out then...

Seriously, i'm not talking about the obvious. I'm talking about something like if a sensor of some kind is supposed to trigger something else to turn on or do something, and that something is not happening, it is very easy to connect the computer and force things(sensors) on and off to very easily find the culprit without even lifting the hood or getting under the vehicle. Situations like that make it extreemely easy to diagnose a problem.
Now I don't know how much the factory allows the dealers to do during dianostics, the testing software probably just performs these tests in its own with general scans. Not everybody understands multiplexing logic like that i.e.: if this ->then that or mutually exclusive, bi stable latching etc.

Now multiplexing a carburator, now that's senseless.

For you and me dealing with multiplexing on our own vehicles can be a royal pain in the ass! Especially since we can not change any of the logic. Everybody says the Jeeps can bus is sensitive, it's not, you either have chit connected correctly or you don't! You can't just tap into multiplexed communication wires or particular circuits and think stuff is still going to work fine especially when people are messing with cummunication wires and crimping down on them with those piece of shit plastic wire tap things. A lot of multiplex systems have built in circuit protection too. So if you overload that circuit, it is going to cut out. My systems try resetting that overloaded circuit three times before it stops trying no relays or fuses required in some applications.

The problem with most cars these days is that they have a mixture of multiplexing and electro mechanical parts still for various reasons. Usually because of higher amperage components. PITA!

One other thing, multiplex programming never changes, it is alway there doing its job. It's components that go bad. Without multiplexing, you end up with a world of wiring and relays etc that are doing essentially what multiplexing functions actually do. So without multiplexing, you have to first physically diagnose all the relays etc in that particular circuit and all the way over the suspect component. It could be a relay that went bad that is telling multiple components to turn on or off across multiple circuits. And yes, it is easy to check if a relay is bad but first you have to find it, pull it and then test it.

Solid state electronics IMO have their applications and so do relays and other electro mechanical parts. There are a lot of other examples that are advantages over electro mechanical but I'm not giving a class while typing on my phone.
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post #16 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 04:51 AM
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Also, I agree, the charge for dealer scans are rediculous. It takes them londger to find out who has the computer and plug it in compared to diagnosing the problem. It's just ine of those the customer doesn't know any better things. Well, we are all learning you dealer bastards! I can dianose one of my fire trucks all the way in Utah from South Florida with multiplexing. All they need is to connect a phone line to the truck into the modem. I wouldn't charge them for that. Maybe freight if it is out of warranty but I've never had to diagnose one of my trucks like that. We tried it though. Freaks the customer out when can beep the horn or turn on emergency lights etc from 3K+ miles away while I am sitting at my desk on my computer while talking to them on the phone.
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post #17 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 04:58 AM
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Back on topic!
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post #18 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 05:01 AM
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he had the leads backwards...we talked about it. did you get them switched James?

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post #19 of 20 Old 10-03-2012, 06:25 AM
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Switch the polarity!

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post #20 of 20 Old 10-11-2012, 10:54 PM Thread Starter
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he had the leads backwards...we talked about it. did you get them switched James?
No I have not yet Tom. I'm just waiting it out until I get the GenRight Alum Fenders that Marcus got me and the Marker light for $25. Speaking of which, you also said you would help install them when I get them . Also, if anyone is interested in some Bushwhacker Flares, let me know. I'm selling mine as soon as I get the genright's installed.
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