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post #1 of 17 Old 04-21-2012, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Light pattern experiment

For the camera geeks image info is added to photos.
Pro Camera on tripod, set on Manual, from house window above Jeep. A number of images were shot and exposure adjustments made until the camera image matched that of naked eye. All comparison images were then shot with the same exposure. 1/10sec, f2.8, ISO 6400.

Light Specs:
Factory headlights with original bulbs.
2 Lightforce Stryker 170s w/spot covers mounted on bumper.
2 Hamsar HDI HO LED Spot Worklights (1900 lumens each) windshield mounts..

Please note: Due to being aimed down, the potential distance of the Lightforce lights is not fully achieved. This test is just for pattern comparison and output.


Jeff _(OllllllO)_



08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.

Last edited by jtphoto JK; 04-21-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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post #2 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 01:44 AM
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I see a horse!!!
I like the beam of the lightforce ones.

You smell that?
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post #3 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 07:29 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenbelly View Post
I see a horse!!!
I like the beam of the lightforce ones.
Yes you do! I love the Lightforce on the roads at night for spotting wildlife far ahead, but they are way too bright and have to be shut down if you suspect oncoming traffic. The LED even though they are spots cast a wide pattern. I may mount them on the bumper as well and see if it narrows the pattern being closer to the ground.

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08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #4 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 03:38 PM
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what is your color balance set at?
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post #5 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 04:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by usmcdoc14 View Post
what is your color balance set at?
I just left it on auto white balance as I find it works very well on this camera. Would you like to know the actual color temp of each image?

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08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #6 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jtphoto JK View Post
I just left it on auto white balance as I find it works very well on this camera. Would you like to know the actual color temp of each image?

I am just asking as it is auto-whitening the lights when there should be a clear temp difference between all of them. It may confuse the viewer into thinking the color they see in the images is what the lights actually represent.

If you set on daylight it will decent representation of the temp of the light and also give you a color separation when showing multiple lighting sources such as the factory lights with the LEDs.


Just some helpful tips from one photographer to another
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post #7 of 17 Old 04-22-2012, 09:08 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usmcdoc14 View Post
I am just asking as it is auto-whitening the lights when there should be a clear temp difference between all of them. It may confuse the viewer into thinking the color they see in the images is what the lights actually represent.

If you set on daylight it will decent representation of the temp of the light and also give you a color separation when showing multiple lighting sources such as the factory lights with the LEDs.


Just some helpful tips from one photographer to another
Good point, but not overlooked. As our eyes do auto color balance on their own, i feel this experiment is accurate enough as is. Have you ever worn yellow shooting classes. There is also the fact that each viewing source i.e. monitor, tablet, phone or laptop, if not calibrated, will render the images a different color.
In this instance, Daylight WB would actual give a false representation of the true color that we actually see, rendering everything an unnatural rich yellow color. As for showing the difference in color between different lighting types, AWB can only adjust for one color temp at a time, the stronger of the sources, hence a color difference will always be visible.
NTL the point of this exercise was to compare light output and pattern rather then color difference.
Thanks for your response, good discussion.


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Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #8 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtphoto JK View Post
Good point, but not overlooked. As our eyes do auto color balance on their own, i feel this experiment is accurate enough as is. Have you ever worn yellow shooting classes. There is also the fact that each viewing source i.e. monitor, tablet, phone or laptop, if not calibrated, will render the images a different color.
In this instance, Daylight WB would actual give a false representation of the true color that we actually see, rendering everything an unnatural rich yellow color. As for showing the difference in color between different lighting types, AWB can only adjust for one color temp at a time, the stronger of the sources, hence a color difference will always be visible.
NTL the point of this exercise was to compare light output and pattern rather then color difference.
Thanks for your response, good discussion.


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I wrote out a very good piece about our eyes adjustment to color temp when talking to Baja Designs, I will see if I can find it. As white is only white to the beholder

I was talking more to distiguish the coverage areas and overlap, not so much color as that can be easily changed anyway.
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post #9 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usmcdoc14 View Post
I was talking more to distiguish the coverage areas and overlap, not so much color as that can be easily changed anyway.
It would be interesting to read your piece... In the camera world, the sensor can only adjust for one color temperature so having multiple light sources will skew the color balance , whether its set to auto or a defined temp. In auto it will adjust to the brightest source, or which ever source covers the most sensor area. In this case using the Incandescent setting in camera would render the quartz lights realistically (approx. 3450K degrees) but that is what auto balance did. The only image that was somewhat out in color balance compared to the others was the image of the LED lights alone, in which case, WB adjusted to 3450K in RAW converter, showed an unrealistic blue tint, not what we see..
The fact that the images were shot in AWB really doesn't matter as the RAW files can be processed at what ever color temp I choose.
I understand your point and will repost this evening the image of the mixed lighting from the RAW file with WB adjusted to exaggerate color difference and show the lighting overlap for those that are interested..

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08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.

Last edited by jtphoto JK; 04-23-2012 at 07:12 AM.
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post #10 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 10:03 AM
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I know that having seen pictures of several different lights, talking to many people about their lights, and talking to Baja Designs when I ordered it seems like the camera will exaggerate the light color many times.

For example I have seen some pictures where the light pattern appears to be blue or green, and in reality it doesn't appear to be that color. The reality is that the light output would have a slight tint to it that would be in the shade, however the camera is making it more visible than it really is.

All of these shade differences while not readily noticed by the naked eye can make a big difference in light performance, and eye strain.

I think that the pictures are a good representation of the light pattern, but I would expect there to be more of a color variation between the stock lights, Light Force lights, and the LED lights.

Jon

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post #11 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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There is very little difference in color between the Lightforce and factory lights. These LED lights on the otherhand, while warmer in tone then most LED spots, do still have a blue tint.
My choice to use Auto White balance was to better replicate the colors as our eyes see them. I will repost later with a base white balance.

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Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #12 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 11:15 AM
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I will clif note it Mind you some of it does not apply here but is good info for those choosing lights.
I will make this plain but not dumb it down, it is very generic:

First lets do some A&P

eye photoreceptor are made of rods and cones. rods are multicolor sensitive (contrary to old belief they only saw black and white) and are more sensitive to blue end of spectrum. cones are very selective and they are tuned to red/green/blue. The rods also control pupil restriction, this comes into play with color perception and also a high lumen light.

Low lumen causes a bigger pupil, high closes it up, we know this. What most don’t know is a big open pupil causes all sorts of stray non focused light in the eye to fall on the retina causing things to be not sharp, closed pupil (just like a smaller camera aperture) get rid of these aberrant rays and things are sharper (depth of field increased as well)

So you crank up the light and things get sharper? right? well maybe ..if you crank up the red end of the spectrum and the rods don't close the pupil as much (they are more blue sensitive) so now you get a LOT of out of focus light. So you crank up the blue end...well now you shift the color out of the happy area of the cones and colors all look like crap.

there is this "happy area" that is very subjective where YOU the viewer (because you are the one using the light) see things clear, in what you feel as a correct color in THAT light and also not so "blue" that it causes eye strain (more on this later).

In regards to color temp of lights and one temp being "better" or "worse" our eyes are HIGHLY adaptive and are not limited to detail or comfort in a range as narrow as +/- 1000k. Where as one person may have a better detail at 5000k another may see it as too "warm" (even though that temp is not) and feel comfortable at 6000+k. Myself being one of them.

You will see perfectly clear in the same lumen between 4-6000k easily. You will even perceive each light source as white until you toss another light source in there. (like a CF bulb in a room full of regular light bulbs) Because that is what your mind/eyes do, you will “auto-correct” to what should be perceived as “white” until another source is added in the mix. For example my headlights by themselves look “white” until I turn on my LEDs, the same with my LED’s being “white” till I turn on my headlights. What happens is the overlap becomes “white” while the headlight alone warmer and the LED edge bluer.

This is also VERY subjective, because you the observer may see my headlights as “white” and my LED as blue depending on what light source your eyes are using as a reference.

With an increase or decrease in lumen (even from the same source in it spill) will make a perceived shift in "color" as the eye accommodates. So with a high power LED a color of even 5000k can still appear "blue" to the bystander while being "white" to the user, then shifting to “white” to the bystander if being directly hit with the beam (contracting pupil = less blue) and not seeing it by the lower lumen spill (open pupil = more blue).

Kinda fucking neat huh? Want another nifty example? Go look at the color green of a stop light during the day, note it and then observe it at night. You will see a color shift there that is a combination of rod/cone usage and also your headlights or streetlights being your reference white.

There are a lot of studies done on lighting but a problem with most of the studies out there is they are based on "room lighting", a medium lumen and uniform light. Good thing that also gives insight as to why a 5000k light works better than a 4000k light. You know you can actually lower the lumen of a room while running a slightly "bluer" light and it would give the occupants the same visual acuity and apparent "feel" of the same brightness, mind you while not being as bright/requiring as much output. But there is a point of diminishing returns as you approach what will cause eye strain and pupil constriction.

Another common thing: People also ask why amber lights seem to cut through dust more than whiter lights.

personal prefrence

and a little maybe science...

Blue/violet are difficult for us to process correctly. They are the shortest visible wavelengths and tend to focus off in our eyes. Blue also is a very difficult color of light to look directly at, it causes the reaction we call glare. Go look at a blue neon sign and you can tell.

"blue" headlights produce more perceived glare than "yellow". So by killing the blue out of the spectrum makes it easier to see and reduces glare. It has little to nothing to do with scattering of light due to fog as the spacing is all wrong.

So most likely personal preference. But here is some light reading: http://www.lightingresearch.org/prog...01-01-0320.pdf

I happen to like amber/yellow as a fog because it produces a more contrasty image and harder shadows. This allows me to better define the road edge and large hazards. And it is less glare.....to me anyway...because all this shit is subjective


This is also why we as photographers use a solid reference of what is “white” when doing image processing….and even that is an endless battle of what is the customer using for settings, my settings, my screen settings, screen age, is thuis being printed, if so by who, do I want a dramatic effect……….you get the idea
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post #13 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 04:21 PM Thread Starter
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Good write up.

As promised same images balanced to daylight 5500K...


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Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #14 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 04:33 PM
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This is a good photography thread! I like it!
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post #15 of 17 Old 04-23-2012, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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It's interesting how the LED has the perfect daylight balance. The grass and trees are green as in daylight. To the eye they seem somewhat blue.

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08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #16 of 17 Old 09-19-2012, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Just switched headlight bulbs to PIAA Xtreme white plus. Big difference from stock bulbs. I also put pail blue hybrid covers on my Lightforce lights to balance the color with the LEDs photos to follow.

Jeff _(OllllllO)_



08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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post #17 of 17 Old 09-21-2012, 08:10 PM Thread Starter
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Here is an updated image, all images balanced to 5500K (daylight) The headlights are factory housings with PIAA Xtreme white Plus Bulbs. The LightForce Stryker 170 have light blue Hybrid covers (flood and spot), LED spots are now mounted on the bumper rather then on windshield mounts...


Jeff _(OllllllO)_



08 Black and Khaki JK Sahara Unlimited, Dual Tops, MyGig, Tow pkg, Trax-Lok Rear Diff,
Mods -- 3.5" Rock Krawler front springs, 2.5 TerraFlex BB rear, Mopar D44HD/J8, OX Locker, RCVs, 37x12.50x17 Pitbull Rockers on ProComp 7069, AEV Premium front bumper, Smittybilt X2O 12K Comp winch.
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