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post #1 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 01:46 PM Thread Starter
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fuel delivery issue 2008 jku auto

Coincidently I finished putting in OBA, wired it up, drove it, and it stalled out like it ran out of fuel. I was worried that I had done something to prevent the engine to run by messing up the sentry key immobilizer system.

After reading the manual and found that the sentry monitoring light indicates that everything is fine with keys and electronics (info is in your user manual section 2) and that e motor runs if I dump fuel into the intake it has been confirmed a fuel delivery issue.

I have started some research and will be doing more. So far I have found that it could be the fuel pump assembly, PCM, or TIPM.

Your help in directing me to related threads or your experience to assist in diagnosis would be appreciated.

I think ruling out fuel pump is a good place to start. I want to apply 12 volt source to it and see if it has the ability to get motor to run.

This did originally start out on a different thread yesterday and with some help I was able to get this far. Props to those who helped out. Here is the link to the first thread.
https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=247418

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #2 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 01:58 PM
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I think I would start by making sure the fuel pump works. Unfortunalty I'm not experienced enough with a JK to know how to bypass the power input with another power source to make sure it works. If it were a Japanese motorcycle, no problem.

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post #3 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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I think I would start by making sure the fuel pump works. Unfortunalty I'm not experienced enough with a JK to know how to bypass the power input with another power source to make sure it works. If it were a Japanese motorcycle, no problem.
I like your answer!
Anyone else?

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #4 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 04:19 PM
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my vote, because I am pessimistic is wcm,,,,,, but more likely just key..of course I did the extra ground wire before that......

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...o+start&page=6

I had intermittent no start. First it would turn over start but then shut down after a couple seconds, after cool down or battery disco it would start, but kept getting more frequent, dealer in payson replaced my FOB with a mechanical key...no problems since 6 months+ later......

I belive you can test for the WCM failure by pulling the J13 fuse to reset, if it wont its the wcm if it does could be key or ground

and

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...t=74599&page=2



https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64067

or google wcm and drink a lot of coffee

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post #5 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 05:22 PM
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my vote, because I am pessimistic is wcm,,,,,, but more likely just key..of course I did the extra ground wire before that......

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...o+start&page=6

I had intermittent no start. First it would turn over start but then shut down after a couple seconds, after cool down or battery disco it would start, but kept getting more frequent, dealer in payson replaced my FOB with a mechanical key...no problems since 6 months+ later......

I belive you can test for the WCM failure by pulling the J13 fuse to reset, if it wont its the wcm if it does could be key or ground

and

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...t=74599&page=2



https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64067

or google wcm and drink a lot of coffee
Would it turn over and not start or not turn over at all?

When my alarm disable whatchamawhoie went on the fritz it wouldn't even turn over. I was lucky and disconnecting the battery overnight fixed it.

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post #6 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Catfish View Post
my vote, because I am pessimistic is wcm,,,,,, but more likely just key..of course I did the extra ground wire before that......

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...o+start&page=6

I had intermittent no start. First it would turn over start but then shut down after a couple seconds, after cool down or battery disco it would start, but kept getting more frequent, dealer in payson replaced my FOB with a mechanical key...no problems since 6 months+ later......

I belive you can test for the WCM failure by pulling the J13 fuse to reset, if it wont its the wcm if it does could be key or ground

and

https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showth...t=74599&page=2



https://www.jkowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64067

or google wcm and drink a lot of coffee
Well it is good you chimed in. I had closed that door and you reopened it for me.
I didn't think so as the sentry key system seams to be fine according to the LED light in upper right corner.

A couple of questions. Did that sentry key immobilizer light ever indicate you had a problem? Do think throwing gas down the intake would get the motor to run? I don't think you can answer those questions but it is a possibility. I have had the very odd time a no crank situation but I just kept trying. This problem is that it will turn over the motor but no fuel to start.

I will read your links. Thanks for the heads up. This could be an issue.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #7 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 08:44 PM
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It would turn over and start, then die. After a few tries nothing. Getting rid of the fob and replacing with a mechanical key "fixed" it. Those threads have others issues to check as well and your correct although I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner on carbs in the past I have no idea what direct gas would do to our 3.8.

I'll look at my record to see what the codes were if any.....didn't notice any lights or lack thereof.....

Last edited by Catfish; 02-18-2015 at 08:49 PM.
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post #8 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 08:52 PM
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When my BIL's Suburban died on a trail in St. George, we towed it back to the other BIL's house and dropped the tank, pulled the pump, and alligator clipped the power to a 12vdc power source. No go on operation, replaced it, and everything was back to normal. I would imagine you could do the same with the JK. Otherwise, you need a fuel pressure gauge to check fuel rail pressure.

http://www.carid.com/actron/fuel-pre...h5QaAgs48P8HAQ

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post #9 of 26 Old 02-18-2015, 10:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Catfish View Post
It would turn over and start, then die. After a few tries nothing. Getting rid of the fob and replacing with a mechanical key "fixed" it. Those threads have others issues to check as well and your correct although I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner on carbs in the past I have no idea what direct gas would do to our 3.8.

I'll look at my record to see what the codes were if any.....didn't notice any lights or lack thereof.....
Well my jeep currently will not start and die with in 2 seconds. In fact it does not have any symptoms that would account for the vcm.
It just turns over. It will turn over for the full 10 seconds that it is programmed to do and not fire once. the started engages every time, the remote start does function to get starter to attempt to start the motor as intended and again it cranks for a full 10 seconds without the motor firing at all. The remote works to lock and unlock doors.

It doesn't sound seem to me that in this case the WCM is an issue then. I don't have the similar symptoms. Found in those threads you provided.

The Motor runs if I put gas in the intake to allow it to evaporate and provides the engine enough to run for a short time only. Longer than the 2 seconds. I was able to drive it into the garage just now.

Next up. Fuel pump test I guess. Thanks catfish.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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Last edited by JeepUpKeep37s; 02-18-2015 at 11:22 PM. Reason: To provide a better understanding of what I was meaning. I am tired lol
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post #10 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 06:55 PM Thread Starter
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Update.

I jumped power from one fuse that works off ignition power to the fuel pump fuse and the jeep started right away.

So it's TIPM fuel pump relay internally that is either not being commanded on or the relay is bad. My gut tells me due to the other problems I have had with the TIPM I should just replace it. If it is the PCM on top of that then so be it. Lol computers don't belong in jeeps or any car truck for that matter. It's a money maker for the auto industry by reinventing itself.

Any ideas on how I can go further with my diagnosis without a scan tool? LOL with the aid of the web and this site. Thanks goodness for search engines.

Where can I get a cheap a TIPM on the cheap. Reman.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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Last edited by JeepUpKeep37s; 02-19-2015 at 06:57 PM. Reason: TIPM addition
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post #11 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 07:21 PM
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Interesting, wonder if your TIPM falls into this... http://absoluteraleigh.com/blog/tipm-repair/

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post #12 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 08:24 PM
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Any ideas on how I can go further with my diagnosis without a scan tool?
Why not use a scan tool? They are cheap. You can get a stand-alone like this one for $22 on Amazon the says its supports CAN: http://tinyurl.com/mvbxv6h

Or one that works on blue tooth to your Android phone: http://tinyurl.com/mjcmfsx

As far as a TIPM- Call a junkyard near you? All the new ones I see online are like $600. I'd use a scan tool first to see if it tells you anything of use, frankly if you are going to do work on a modern car yourself then there is no reason at all to not have one. I use a Flashcal to read my codes and reset them but no reason to go that expensive.
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post #13 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:12 PM Thread Starter
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Why not use a scan tool? They are cheap. You can get a stand-alone like this one for $22 on Amazon the says its supports CAN: http://tinyurl.com/mvbxv6h

Or one that works on blue tooth to your Android phone: http://tinyurl.com/mjcmfsx

As far as a TIPM- Call a junkyard near you? All the new ones I see online are like $600. I'd use a scan tool first to see if it tells you anything of use, frankly if you are going to do work on a modern car yourself then there is no reason at all to not have one. I use a Flashcal to read my codes and reset them but no reason to go that expensive.
No codes are thrown. The scan tool I am referring to is the dealer specific tool that allows you to run diagnostics to test items such as the PCM or specific relays like the fuel relay. No $22 scanner or android app is going to have the ability to do true diagnostic tests.

Why would I put a used junkyard part known to fail back into my jeep when a re manufactured part has updates relays that won't fail like these. It is a real safety hazard. Do you know there is documented cases of the TIPM not sending the command to turn on air bags or a relay failing to turn on the air bags in accident. Or the opposite, sending the command when it shouldn't. Imagine driving and bang the air bags go off stunning you and causing you to have an accident due to it. Yeah there is sometimes a junkyard part makes sense but in this case I don't think it does.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #14 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:12 PM
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I was thinking the scan tool asphalt assault was wanting to avoid having to use was the very expensive scan tool like the dealer has; one that can monitor the systems. For example, the dealer tool can see if the fuel pump relay is getting power from the PCM, and whether or not the relay operates.

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post #15 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting, wonder if your TIPM falls into this... http://absoluteraleigh.com/blog/tipm-repair/
That is a good website. They seem to be upfront and realistic.

Unfortunately for me my tpm has a cooling fan issue, power window issue, and all at the same time horns, door lock, wipers and washer fluid issue. It is truly possessed as some say.

Due to all of these problems and that I don't have just a fuel pump relay problem that company does not recommend me sending them my TIPM. Their service does not repair or fix all of TIPM problems.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #16 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:18 PM
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Yeah, the Starscan tool is a little spendy.

http://www.obd2inthebox.com/chrysler...henhoCsZXw_wcB

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post #17 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:38 PM
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Sorry, my misunderstanding, I didn't know that you'd already tried to pull the OBD II codes. Could you take the Jeep to the dealer and ask them to pull the codes with their spendy tool? Just trying to save you the trouble of doing work that may not solve the problem.
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post #18 of 26 Old 02-19-2015, 09:58 PM
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This would be pretty cool, I guess the dealers all switched to Wi Tech and the VCI Pod. The StarScan is obsolete.

Chrysler Wi Tech Scan tool system: http://youtu.be/pyrqwBTsCak

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post #19 of 26 Old 02-20-2015, 12:58 AM Thread Starter
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Sorry, my misunderstanding, I didn't know that you'd already tried to pull the OBD II codes. Could you take the Jeep to the dealer and ask them to pull the codes with their spendy tool? Just trying to save you the trouble of doing work that may not solve the problem.
Yeah I have superchips trail dash. Scans anytime I want and provides an explanation of the code as well. Very handy. Their are no codes. What would be great is a diagnostic tool but those are not cheap and a dealer does not wrk for free.

Would you spend $150 for jeep to be towed to the dealer, then $150/ for diagnostic work? So I am at a minimum $300 to go to the dealer. Plus they want to fix it. They can't stand people who are shade tree mechanics who ask for a scan and then leaves to buy the parts else where and install themselves. You don't make friends that way. Their is lots that could go wrong with this scenario, like misdiagnosis, lack of sharing a proper interpretation of data, printed report without explanation, over charged for 15 mins work. Unless I know the person I won't have them do it.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #20 of 26 Old 02-20-2015, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Update - well I drove jeep to work today on my farmers fix, jumping power from a fuse that is ignition powered over to the full pump fuse. I did use a inline fuse lead for jumping the power. Works flawlessly. I think a test light and this jumper should be part of any jk trail tool kit to help limp of a trail. You never know that your TIPM could go sour at the worst time.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #21 of 26 Old 02-20-2015, 03:24 PM
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well your well beyond me technically but I was told the key has the securty feature of shutting off the gas so it cannot be hotwired. or can be but will shut down.

Fletchers code reader got nothing, dealers (shout out to Chapman in Payson) read PCM-P0513 and WCM B1A25 invalid key.


good luck!
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post #22 of 26 Old 02-20-2015, 06:49 PM
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well your well beyond me technically but I was told the key has the securty feature of shutting off the gas so it cannot be hotwired. or can be but will shut down.

Fletchers code reader got nothing, dealers (shout out to Chapman in Payson) read PCM-P0513 and WCM B1A25 invalid key.


good luck!
The security feature shuts off more than the fuel. It also shuts off the ignition.

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post #23 of 26 Old 02-23-2015, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
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well your well beyond me technically but I was told the key has the securty feature of shutting off the gas so it cannot be hotwired. or can be but will shut down.

Fletchers code reader got nothing, dealers (shout out to Chapman in Payson) read PCM-P0513 and WCM B1A25 invalid key.


good luck!
Not sure what your trying to tell me? Even though I have a different problem which I have found and proven you still think it is the security system?

I have driven my jeep to work for three days by jumping power over to the fuel pump. I find that there is no issues with the security features at this point. I can tell as the system recognizes the keys due to the security light in the upper corner of the dash is not flashing (if you don't know what I am referring to then have a look at section 2 in users manual). If it was reading an invalid key I would have a blinking light. Don't need a code reader to tell me that. Getting past the vehicle sentry key immobilizer is not as easy as putting a wire in the fuse box to jump power and beating it. There would be a large number of dodge vehicles stolen everyday.

The fuel pump is not receiving power due to a either a defective fuel pump relay in the TIPM or the relay not being commanded to turn on by the PCM. If that is the case the PCM may need to be replaced.

I have ordered a TIPM as I have had numerous other issues and replacing it is needed anyway. Hopefully replacing it will fix the jeep which I am fairly confident. If it is not fixed I will then have scanned to find additional problems.

JKUR auto | 5:38 | tires 36"x17 wheels 9"x4.5"bs | TF 6"| ASFIR bumpers, skids | SuperWinch EPi9.5 | RCV shafts | SC traildash | Xenon fenders | OBA York

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post #24 of 26 Old 02-23-2015, 03:12 PM
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The fuel pump is commanded on by the PCM dependent on many conditions. Security, ETC and other systems can inhibit the fuel pump on command. Not having a valid crankshaft position signal(rpm) will also inhibit the fuel pump.

The fuel pump command is a ground signal from connector 3 pin 37 (brown wire) of the PCM to the TIPM. The FP relay is internal to the TIPM and not easy to test.

Grounding the brown wire will trigger the fuel pump relay on if the engine is turning. The ASD/PCM powers up the FP relay for a few seconds for start then will shut it down if the proper conditions are not met.

TIPM's are junk and have a high failure rate, I have replaced 3 recently for power door lock problems.

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post #25 of 26 Old 02-23-2015, 04:07 PM
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Power what?

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