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post #1 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 11:47 AM Thread Starter
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OR-Fab Customer Services Blows

As the title says OR-Fab customer services is the worst on the planet.
Here is the story:
I purchased the OR-Fab Rear Tire Carrier and Sheet Metal bumper in July in preparation for my trip to Dusy-Ershim. I installed the tire carrier and bumper as per the instructions. Once I began my 7 day trip on the Dusy-Ershim trail the first rock obstacle I encountered caused my immediate problems with the rear bumper. I came down hard on a rock and hit the rear bumper. Once we stopped I went to get into the back of the JK I couldn't open the tailgate. The bumper had been pushed upward so far the tailgate would not open.
I chalked this up to maybe I am a moron (which is highly likely). So I loosened the bolts on the bumper with a breaker bar and put the bumper back into place. I re-tightened the bolts with a breaker bar so tight I had to use a pipe and breaker bar to loosen them to check for torque. These bolts were tight. Very next day same scenario hit the bumper from underneath and the bumper moved upward so far I couldn't get the tailgate open. Same procedure to get it back into place. This went on for 7 days and destroyed my tailgate and rear corners.

Here are the pics of the damage:











So I come back from the trip and a friend contacts OR-Fab on my behalf and they contact me and ask me what happened. I explain to them in detail how their bumper is a flawed design. Kevin from OR-Fab tells me he will check into it and get back with me.

Here is the Email I sent to Kevin on 8/23/2010 with the photos above attached:

Rod Cotton
To [email protected]
Hotmail Active View
11 attachments (total 1408.9 KB)

Kevin,
Here are the pictures I spoke to you about regarding the damage caused by the rear bumper. There is definitely a design flaw in the bumper mounting. After investigation I have determined that two bolts attached to the underside of the bumper through the rear cross member would have prevented this. I don't think this bumper was ever designed to take a hit from underneath. I put this bumper to the test doing the Dusy Ershim trail in the Sierra Mountains this past week. Unfortunately the bumper was a huge failure as you can see. I had to loosen the bolts on the bumper after every run so that I could open the tailgate. I then tightened the bolts back up with a breaker bar but the bumper would still travel upward after a direct hit from underneath. I had no choice but to finish the trail with the bumper as I was pretty far from any civilization and I didn't want to take it off and leave it laying on the trail (although that was considered after the last time I couldn't get my tailgate open to get to my tools to do trail repairs!).
And as far as the tire carrier goes I am VERY unsatisfied with that also. I adjust the tire carrier before every wheeling trip and by the time the trip is over it is sagging to the point that I have to have another person help me lift it up to close it.
I don't want to go public with these problems without giving your company a chance to make things right so I appreciate you contacting me!


v/r

Rod Cotton

He responded on 8/25/2010:
kevin imperia
To Rod Cotton

Yes I did will be getting with the boss tomorrow or Friday issues at work he has been in the shop running the laser.

On Aug 25, 2010 4:58 PM, "Rod Cotton" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> Just wondering if you got my email with the pictures?
>
> v/r
>
> Rod Cotton

I guess the boss was real busy because Kevin fell off the planet. I sent a request for an update on 9/7/2010:

To [email protected]

Any word yet?

v/r

Rod Cotton

Now I am getting pissed it is now 9/13/2010:

Rod Cotton
To [email protected], Kevin OR-Fab

Kevin,
It has been several weeks since you approached me about this issue. I am now starting to get frustrated with the lack of customer service with OR-Fab. I understand things get hectic but after several weeks of no communication I have lost my patience. Just let me know what your company is going to do about the situation. If you are going to do nothing then that is fine also. I just need to know so I can take the approriate action based upon your decision.

v/r

Rod Cotton

So now the OR-Fab "engineers" want photos from under my JK to see where I was hitting the bumper to cause this "anomaly" . I oblige them and even do their job for them and explain how to remedy the problem of their flawed design. I wasn't out to crucify them at this point.

10/01/2010


To Kevin OR-Fab, [email protected], Rod Cotton
Hotmail Active View
11 attachments (total 5.0 MB)

Kevin,
Here are the photos. The one labeled recommended mounting point is where your engineers should look at putting two bolts. Drill a hole through the bumper and put two carriage bolts and the problem would be solved. A $2.50 solution for a $2000 problem! I will be doing this tonight in our shop.

v/r

Rod Cotton

So Kevin finally calls me on my phone about week and half later and asks me what they want them to do. At this point I know they aren't going to fix my Jeep based upon the way the conversation is going. I told Kevin I wasn't looking to crucify his company even though I had all right to do so. So I tell Kevin just give a good price on a sports cage and we call it even.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM THEM AGAIN!

I mean come on....they put out a flawed design, I buy it, it destroys my Jeep, I tell them what they need to do to prevent this from happening to anyone else, they ask me what I want them do do, I tell them I am willing to give them more of my money for their company but give me a discount on the part, and they ignore me.

Nice customer service! I am glad not every vendor is so screwed up!


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post #2 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 12:04 PM
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I think that's the problem with purchasing some of these aftermarket pieces. A lot of them don't get truly "trail-tested" before they get produced and sold to the masses. A lot of them probably figure if they sell these pieces, how many of them will actually get used to full trail potential anyways? Get a design out there and make some $$$. There's an obvious flaw in their design if the ORF bumper's making that much contact. Hell, I've stood on my rear bumper with the full weight of the vehicle and come down hard on it several times in boulder gardens and to no ill effect (shameless HD Customs plug ).

The only thing that's kind of goofy in this scenario is you're unhappy with their product, and yet you asked for them to give you a deal on...more of their product. While it seems fair to you, it just makes it appear like you overplayed with your Jeep and blamed it on the bumper to get a deal on the sport cage. By no means do I think that's what happened, it's obvious the design is flawed, just what it comes across as when you try to be fair and said you'd like more ORF parts at a discount.

I hope ORF makes some attempt to take care of you in this matter as I feel it's deserved and corrects their design for future purchasers.

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post #3 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 12:08 PM
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post #4 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 01:25 PM
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i was warned of this flaw by a friend when i purchased my bumper. after mounting the bumper i put 2 pieces of 3/8" x 2.5" x 6" flat cold rolled in the gap between bumper and frame member. drilled and tapped 2 1/4" holes in each and bolted the bumper and the flat steel together so the bumper can"t move. counter sunk the holes so i could use flat allen type bolts so they would finish flush. the problem to me is that the holes in the frame member are 3/4" and the bolts sent with the bumper are 1/2".

since i knew of the problem i did not call OR Fab. looks like it would have been useless anyway, hope you get some satisfaction from them eventually.
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post #5 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 01:35 PM
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Wow that really sucks, Don't think even my Smittybilt could do that due to the four bolts through the crossmember for the hitch. I'd be pretty ticked if my tailgate got raped like that as well!

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post #6 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 01:59 PM
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good to know... i was cosidering their products but will look elsewhere...

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post #7 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 02:02 PM
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wow thats pretty shocking to see...I was pretty set on that rear bumper to match my front

Im sure they will work everything out
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post #8 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 02:16 PM
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Not shocking at all.... After what happened with Goody.... I think the company sucks balls and personally wouldn't buy from them.
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post #9 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 02:28 PM
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After looking at the damage personally... A 7 year old can see what could have been done to fix this issue. None of OR fab Products have ever caught my eye but it sucks to see customers get shit on by vendors.....
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post #10 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:09 PM
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Damn that sucks. Luckily I was warned as well when I purchased my bumper. I also contacted Or-Fab about the issue prior to the install and they knew nothing about it. This is what I posted on JKA about how I fixed it. It's taken a few good hits and so far no issues.


Ok here is my update.

These are the pieces of metal I had welded and bent. I drilled a hole for the stock bolt to fit in. The metal slab at the bottom is about 1/4 thick. I had to use a pry bar to assist getting the bracket in. I was too lazy to just unbolt the bumper and make it easy. Either way the bumper shouldn't move up at all since it's a very tight fit. If I do get movement I will drill two holes in the bumper and the bracket and secure it to the fram from the bottom with grade 8 bolts. Doubt I will need to do that, but you never know. In the last picture you can see the gap I filled. I no longer get a hollow sound when knocking on the bottom of the bumper. lol.




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post #11 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:11 PM
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Well that is about as simple of a fix as it could get. Sucks the OP's gate/tub got hammered because of something as easy as that.

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post #12 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:12 PM
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makes no sense why the bumper didnt come like that? seems like an easy fix for or-fab to make though
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post #13 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:18 PM
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Yeah now I feel like an ass for not posting it on here.....Mine is also the older version and I bought it used because the previous owner had the same problem.

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post #14 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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I guess I should have put the fix in this thread also.

What I did was put two bolts through the cross member in the rear to stabilize the bumper.

First I located the two holes in the cross member directly under the bumper.



I then took a drill bit a little smaller than the holes (I don't remember the size, I was too pissed off that I had to figure this out in the first place). and proceeded to drill through the bumper.

I then took two bolts and put them through the holes and used locking nuts and washers underneath to secure the bumper.



As you can see the bolt heads can't spin because they are locked against the wall of the bumper. How smart am I!



It has taken me longer to write this fix than to actually do it.


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post #15 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodysgotacuda View Post
Wow that really sucks, Don't think even my Smittybilt could do that due to the four bolts through the crossmember for the hitch. I'd be pretty ticked if my tailgate got raped like that as well!
yup the smittybilt has a pretty solid mount, I had other issues with it but mount wise it's not going anywhere.




If you can get your hands on a stock hitch to cutup you could use it's mounts and then weld it to the bumper..... Just a thought. Probably easier just to make something though.
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post #16 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taxx View Post
yup the smittybilt has a pretty solid mount, I had other issues with it but mount wise it's not going anywhere.




If you can get your hands on a stock hitch to cutup you could use it's mounts and then weld it to the bumper..... Just a thought. Probably easier just to make something though.
I have the hitch I just took it off so it wouldn't drag.


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post #17 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 06:15 PM
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Thumbs down OR-FAB - Crappy customer service

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFCCotton View Post
As the title says OR-Fab customer services is the worst on the planet.
Here is the story:
I purchased the OR-Fab Rear Tire Carrier and Sheet Metal bumper in July in preparation for my trip to Dusy-Ershim. I installed the tire carrier and bumper as per the instructions. Once I began my 7 day trip on the Dusy-Ershim trail the first rock obstacle I encountered caused my immediate problems with the rear bumper. I came down hard on a rock and hit the rear bumper. Once we stopped I went to get into the back of the JK I couldn't open the tailgate. The bumper had been pushed upward so far the tailgate would not open.
I chalked this up to maybe I am a moron (which is highly likely). So I loosened the bolts on the bumper with a breaker bar and put the bumper back into place. I re-tightened the bolts with a breaker bar so tight I had to use a pipe and breaker bar to loosen them to check for torque. These bolts were tight. Very next day same scenario hit the bumper from underneath and the bumper moved upward so far I couldn't get the tailgate open. Same procedure to get it back into place. This went on for 7 days and destroyed my tailgate and rear corners.

Here are the pics of the damage:



So I come back from the trip and a friend contacts OR-Fab on my behalf and they contact me and ask me what happened. I explain to them in detail how their bumper is a flawed design. Kevin from OR-Fab tells me he will check into it and get back with me.

Here is the Email I sent to Kevin on 8/23/2010 with the photos above attached:

Rod Cotton
To [email protected]
Hotmail Active View
11 attachments (total 1408.9 KB)

Kevin,
Here are the pictures I spoke to you about regarding the damage caused by the rear bumper. There is definitely a design flaw in the bumper mounting. After investigation I have determined that two bolts attached to the underside of the bumper through the rear cross member would have prevented this. I don't think this bumper was ever designed to take a hit from underneath. I put this bumper to the test doing the Dusy Ershim trail in the Sierra Mountains this past week. Unfortunately the bumper was a huge failure as you can see. I had to loosen the bolts on the bumper after every run so that I could open the tailgate. I then tightened the bolts back up with a breaker bar but the bumper would still travel upward after a direct hit from underneath. I had no choice but to finish the trail with the bumper as I was pretty far from any civilization and I didn't want to take it off and leave it laying on the trail (although that was considered after the last time I couldn't get my tailgate open to get to my tools to do trail repairs!).
And as far as the tire carrier goes I am VERY unsatisfied with that also. I adjust the tire carrier before every wheeling trip and by the time the trip is over it is sagging to the point that I have to have another person help me lift it up to close it.
I don't want to go public with these problems without giving your company a chance to make things right so I appreciate you contacting me!


v/r

Rod Cotton

He responded on 8/25/2010:
kevin imperia
To Rod Cotton

Yes I did will be getting with the boss tomorrow or Friday issues at work he has been in the shop running the laser.

On Aug 25, 2010 4:58 PM, "Rod Cotton" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Kevin,
> Just wondering if you got my email with the pictures?
>
> v/r
>
> Rod Cotton

I guess the boss was real busy because Kevin fell off the planet. I sent a request for an update on 9/7/2010:

To [email protected]

Any word yet?

v/r

Rod Cotton

Now I am getting pissed it is now 9/13/2010:

Rod Cotton
To [email protected], Kevin OR-Fab

Kevin,
It has been several weeks since you approached me about this issue. I am now starting to get frustrated with the lack of customer service with OR-Fab. I understand things get hectic but after several weeks of no communication I have lost my patience. Just let me know what your company is going to do about the situation. If you are going to do nothing then that is fine also. I just need to know so I can take the approriate action based upon your decision.

v/r

Rod Cotton

So now the OR-Fab "engineers" want photos from under my JK to see where I was hitting the bumper to cause this "anomaly" . I oblige them and even do their job for them and explain how to remedy the problem of their flawed design. I wasn't out to crucify them at this point.

10/01/2010


To Kevin OR-Fab, [email protected], Rod Cotton
Hotmail Active View
11 attachments (total 5.0 MB)

Kevin,
Here are the photos. The one labeled recommended mounting point is where your engineers should look at putting two bolts. Drill a hole through the bumper and put two carriage bolts and the problem would be solved. A $2.50 solution for a $2000 problem! I will be doing this tonight in our shop.

v/r

Rod Cotton

So Kevin finally calls me on my phone about week and half later and asks me what they want them to do. At this point I know they aren't going to fix my Jeep based upon the way the conversation is going. I told Kevin I wasn't looking to crucify his company even though I had all right to do so. So I tell Kevin just give a good price on a sports cage and we call it even.

I HAVE NEVER HEARD FROM THEM AGAIN!

I mean come on....they put out a flawed design, I buy it, it destroys my Jeep, I tell them what they need to do to prevent this from happening to anyone else, they ask me what I want them do do, I tell them I am willing to give them more of my money for their company but give me a discount on the part, and they ignore me.

Nice customer service! I am glad not every vendor is so screwed up!
You are not alone, Monday Nov. 22nd marks the 15th day after I was told twice I would get the correct winch plate L brackets that "are in the mail". Is Forest Gump running them down to me???

I bought a winch bumper for a reason. If I knew I was going to get cornholed, I would have ordered something that had all the correct pieces.

I like the OR-FAB cage but after this BS, I'll never order another fricken thing from this place.

I have to have the bumper re-powder coated, all the welds started to rust, bumper is less than 6 months old.
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post #18 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 06:32 PM
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Interesting. Very Interesting. We have installed about 35-40 of these bumpers and have had zero problems with them. For that matter, I even had one on my own JK before I stretched it. No problems. I also had the rear tire carrier and ran it with a 40 on a walker beadlock and never had a problem with it "sagging" I have seen some people take shortcuts on the install of the tire carrier, because IT IS A BITCH, I wont lie, and they have had the same issue. I still sell and install 4-5 bumper/tire carrier combos a month, and still think its one of the "better" products out there.

Thanks!!
Joe Daro
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post #19 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute Offroad View Post
Interesting. Very Interesting. We have installed about 35-40 of these bumpers and have had zero problems with them. For that matter, I even had one on my own JK before I stretched it. No problems. I also had the rear tire carrier and ran it with a 40 on a walker beadlock and never had a problem with it "sagging" I have seen some people take shortcuts on the install of the tire carrier, because IT IS A BITCH, I wont lie, and they have had the same issue. I still sell and install 4-5 bumper/tire carrier combos a month, and still think its one of the "better" products out there.
I am sure a everyday user and a medium to light offroad use would not have any problem with this bumper. But if you play in the big rocks it WILL cause damage. There are too many reports of this issue out there for it not to be true. Just because you sell a lot of these bumpers does not mean they get used in the manner I use mine.
As far as the sag thing goes, I installed mine per the instructions and even reinforced it but it still sags no matter what I do. It may be it is just my particular install that is having problems. I don't know or care if no one else is having problems because I am not them! I like the tire carrier and the way it looks just not the sagging issue. I may just weld it to my side armor when I install it and eliminate the OR-Fab system.

And in the end it is not the bumper I am addressing....it is the customer service!


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post #20 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 07:19 PM
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I must not wheel as hardcore as you do, or I am doing something different than you are on install. As for customer service being crappy, I deal with it EVERYDAY. And I can tell you, it gets ALOT worse than OR-FAB. Sorry to hear about your damage, but I think you should sell the parts and either buy or make something for the hardcore side of wheeling.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SFCCotton View Post
I am sure a everyday user and a medium to light offroad use would not have any problem with this bumper. But if you play in the big rocks it WILL cause damage. There are too many reports of this issue out there for it not to be true. Just because you sell a lot of these bumpers does not mean they get used in the manner I use mine.
As far as the sag thing goes, I installed mine per the instructions and even reinforced it but it still sags no matter what I do. It may be it is just my particular install that is having problems. I don't know or care if no one else is having problems because I am not them! I like the tire carrier and the way it looks just not the sagging issue. I may just weld it to my side armor when I install it and eliminate the OR-Fab system.

And in the end it is not the bumper I am addressing....it is the customer service!

Thanks!!
Joe Daro
Absolute Offroad




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post #21 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute Offroad View Post
I must not wheel as hardcore as you do, or I am doing something different than you are on install. As for customer service being crappy, I deal with it EVERYDAY. And I can tell you, it gets ALOT worse than OR-FAB. Sorry to hear about your damage, but I think you should sell the parts and either buy or make something for the hardcore side of wheeling.
You must not wheel as hardcore as I do or the other 20 or so people who have had this problem with the bumper.
As far as the install of the bumper....it only has 8 bolts. I don't know how to screw up the install!
I guess you didn't really read the thread to close there bubba....I fixed the problem already with the addition of two bolts! If you look at any other bumper on the market they all use bolts to secure their bumpers to the frame using the cross member for a reason! I am not a rocket scientist but if everybody else is doing it.......
Why should I sell the parts to somebody knowing they are flawed???? Yeah, good answer..."Hey buddy wanna buy my POS bumper so I can buy one that works?"
And for the record I did not buy this blindly through the internet. I talked personally to the salesperson at OR-Fab and was assured that this bumper could withstand anything I threw at it! Well that is kinda true I guess. The bumper is fine. The Jeep on the other hand didn't fair to well.

So you want to buy a bumper and tire carrier? I give you a smokin' deal on the set! Hell, I'll even deliver it to Phoenix personally. I need to visit my cousin there anyway! Save you the cost of shipping.


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post #22 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 07:41 PM
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I was told by the previous owner that this bumper fit differently on my Jk than theirs. Either way I took the precaution and created the inserts. IMO the bumper would have moved up pretty easily if I hit a decent rock.
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post #23 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeGo4x4 View Post
I was told by the previous owner that this bumper fit differently on my Jk than theirs. Either way I took the precaution and created the inserts. IMO the bumper would have moved up pretty easily if I hit a decent rock.
Trust me....it would have!


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SFCCotton is offline  
post #24 of 94 Old 11-20-2010, 10:05 PM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix
Age: 58
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Wow... We've got complaints piling up like "cocks on a slow hen"! First, some of you need better contact information. If you need to ask something more than once you only need to know two names; 1) Yates Hudson and 2) Steve Rezek. Steve is the President of PAG and I'm the CEO. We will get you an answer, you may not like the answer but we won't jack you around. Anyone that wants our contact info only needs to PM me.

SFCCotton, your post is the first I've ever heard of this problem. I'm trying to imagine how the bumper twisted up to hit the gate if it were properly fastened. Your bumper should have 3/8" plate anchored by 4 bolts on driver and passenger sides. Two of the bolts are 1/2" Diameter grade 5 (3/4" Hex) which we provide and the other two bolts are OEM 1/4". The 1/2" bolts fasten into a Nut Plate that is provided, while the 1/4" bolts are bolted into the OEM fasteners. I've included a picture of the driver side of my jeep.


Austex, I met with Steve at 6:30am this morning to pickup a vehicle for a warehouse show. I informed him of your request for a tracking number. He will get you the information first thing in the AM on Monday. I apologize for the inconvienence, with your situation it looks like we really sucked. No excuses.

Yates
FunJK is offline  
post #25 of 94 Old 11-21-2010, 12:46 AM Thread Starter
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Location: High Desert, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunJK View Post
Wow... We've got complaints piling up like "cocks on a slow hen"! First, some of you need better contact information. If you need to ask something more than once you only need to know two names; 1) Yates Hudson and 2) Steve Rezek. Steve is the President of PAG and I'm the CEO. We will get you an answer, you may not like the answer but we won't jack you around. Anyone that wants our contact info only needs to PM me.

SFCCotton, your post is the first I've ever heard of this problem. I'm trying to imagine how the bumper twisted up to hit the gate if it were properly fastened. Your bumper should have 3/8" plate anchored by 4 bolts on driver and passenger sides. Two of the bolts are 1/2" Diameter grade 5 (3/4" Hex) which we provide and the other two bolts are OEM 1/4". The 1/2" bolts fasten into a Nut Plate that is provided, while the 1/4" bolts are bolted into the OEM fasteners. I've included a picture of the driver side of my jeep.


Austex, I met with Steve at 6:30am this morning to pickup a vehicle for a warehouse show. I informed him of your request for a tracking number. He will get you the information first thing in the AM on Monday. I apologize for the inconvienence, with your situation it looks like we really sucked. No excuses.

Yates
1. I was contacted by your rep not the other way around. I told someone about what had happened to my Jeep. They felt bad because they recommended your company to me. So they contacted Kevin about the problem. Kevin then contacted me. The rest of the conversations are what transpired above. As you can see in the emails he was supposed to talk to you about my issue and get back to me. If he didn't do that, then that is a problem on your end not mine. As I told Kevin today on the phone it is not my job to conduct an investigation and give you my results. It is supposed to happen the other way around. Also I don't think I should have to wait 90 days for a company to give me some sort of resolution to my problem. As I told Kevin today, give me a decision. Yes, No, or Fuck You....either way I just wanted some answer so I could proceed accordingly. I believe I have gone above and beyond to get some resolution to this problem without making it public knowledge.
2. If the first time you are hearing of this issue with this bumper then you need to look around the internet a little better. I sent Kevin a link to another forum where this problem had been addressed by other customers. I mounted my bumper with the bolts you have and added grade 8 bolts to replace the OEM bolts. They were tightened down with a breaker bar so I am sure they were tight. The bumper does not "twist". It moves up and makes contact with the body and tailgate and corners. I hope you aren't saying I am full of shit and this didn't happen because I have witnesses who saw this happen for 7 days! And trust me my witnesses are very credible. I am not a mechanical engineer or do I claim to be one but the bolts you supply and the OEM bolts will not prevent the vertical movement of the bumper no matter how tight you get them. As I stated before you are the only ones not using the rear cross member to mount your bumper. Now that I have added the two bolts the bumper doesn't move. Amazing!
3. Kevin has my contact info if you want to contact me. I am not going to go out of my way to find out your contact info. Your employees have mine. If I have a problem with a company I usually don't go straight to the CEO of a company. If that was the case a lot of bank CEOs would be overwhelmed! Sounds to me like either your company customer service department needs revamped or you need to put your personal contact info out there for everyone to have. You didn't give me the courtesy of talking to me in a PM so I am returning the favor!
4. I am not complaining. I am stating facts, informing potential future purchasers of your product of a design flaw so they can be informed buyers, and trying to get your company to address my issue. Hell I even provided your company with a solution for the problem as have others. I guess as one of your customers feedback doesn't matter???
5. Obviously the only way you can get any resolution from your company is by posting in a forum. Dealing with your company reps obviously is a waste of time. I guess if you have an issue with a product or business practice from P.A.G. you have to post in a forum to get some resolution. Not exactly a business model I would recommend or follow. But hey it works for you I guess!


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