Iphone vs Droid (This is just for you Vertisce) - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum
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post #1 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 09:47 AM Thread Starter
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Iphone vs Droid (This is just for you Vertisce)

I figured instead of jumping in all the iphone threads and keep bashing those that have iPhone you could have your very own place right here.

Just tired of you shenanigans and hijacking iphone threads.

So lets hear your VALID arguments instead of your typical smart ass responses.

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Originally Posted by Vertisce View Post
OMG! The iPhone can send pictures now! LMAO! Im sorry but this thread is hilarious. There is the iPhone...then there is Droid! Open your eyes people! The iPhone is crap by comparison.
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Yup...I am biased and openly admit it. But it does not matter since I work for the best network with the best devices!
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Originally Posted by Vertisce View Post
lol Droid is still better.
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So does this make the iPhone do everything that the Droid does? Oops...there it is again. Droid Does!
Still waiting for your VALID argument..... YAWN

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post #2 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 10:05 AM
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I have an iPhone and the ONLY thing it needs is Flash capability. I don't buy the corporate drivel spewing from Jobs' mouth on the subject. Quit being a bitch and give iPhone users the ability to see Flash web sites.

When I bought the iPhone I ASSUMED Flash would be part of the internet. I assumed wrong.

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post #3 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 10:06 AM Thread Starter
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I have an iPhone and the ONLY thing it needs is Flash capability. I don't buy the corporate drivel spewing from Jobs' mouth on the subject. Quit being a bitch and give iPhone users the ability to see Flash web sites.

When I bought the iPhone I ASSUMED Flash would be part of the internet. I assumed wrong.
I do agree with you 100%. Apple's argument is that it is a "security risk and outdated" Fuck if I care. I WANT FLASH SUPPORT

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post #4 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 01:05 PM
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Oh yeah? Well I have a droid and it supports fl... wait, no it doesn't. Who gives a shit. I call it a draw. If Verizon offered the iPhone, it would have been a tough call. They don't, so I got a droid. I love it, minus the no flash issue. Sounds like the same beef from the iPhone peeps. That, and I want talking carl for my droid.

I do like the slide-out keyboard since i fat finger the digital one constantly... other than that, what's the difference?

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post #5 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 01:19 PM
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droid is nice. I like to see the competition, too bad it is no longer the best android phone out there.

I hate that the android platform doesnt roll out updates for everyone using every phone...

does droid do android 2.2????

p.s.- Im an iPhone/iPad3G/Mac user, tried to switch to the Nexus one, didnt like it.


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post #6 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 01:26 PM
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I stopped developing in flash a couple years ago. I got tired of trying to keep up with yet another technology. The reason Apple didnt include flash has really little to do with security... Its a resource hog and its buggy, but so is anything that needs to be developed to run in so many different environments.

If Apple put flash on the iphone, the battery life would cut in half and the phone would burn a hole through your hand.

I've been using javascript and other techniques to create animation and anything else I used to use flash for. Its easier to manage, it works everywhere, its an open standard.

in a few years, you'll be wondering why we used flash to begin with.

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post #7 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 01:26 PM
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I like the slide-out key pad on the Droid; IMO this makes it HUGE difference in ease of use. I got to the point where I couldn't stand texting and working with the Iphone touch screen anymore. I almost went back to a Blackberry because of this.
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post #8 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 03:07 PM
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I am paying attention to this i am due for an upgrade for my personal phone here in a few months and was looking at the Iphone the samsung rugby isnt cutting it anymore. Its indestructable but browsing sucks balls. I had a palm treo for work it was a POS and now have the samsung jack for work as well I want to throw that thing off of the boat.

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post #9 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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I am paying attention to this i am due for an upgrade for my personal phone here in a few months and was looking at the Iphone the samsung rugby isnt cutting it anymore. Its indestructable but browsing sucks balls. I had a palm treo for work it was a POS and now have the samsung jack for work as well I want to throw that thing off of the boat.
I would say to wait til June as iphone 4g will be out.

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post #10 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 05:29 PM
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I have a HTC droid Eris and I am about friggin tired of waiting for 2.whatever upgrade for my phone. I want the google nav!

I do love it though and had a hard time choosing between it and the Moto Droid. But the Droid was just to damn thick and I didn't like my LG Voyager because it was to big. I love the feel of the Eris now if Verizon and HTC would just get the stick out of their butt and send the OTA update!

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post #11 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 05:30 PM
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I would say to wait til June as iphone 4g will be out.
at&t's 4g deployment isnt even expected to be running till second half of 2011, so having a phone that can run it will not be much use.


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post #12 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 05:44 PM
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Iphone jailbroken/unlocked/installous/cydia all day everyday. I will never use a normal iphone again. You'll only recognize its true capabilitys after you've jailbroken it.

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post #13 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 05:45 PM
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i have the moto droid and have compared it to a friends iphone 3g (not 3gs).
to me both are about the same, the the things that stand out most are the camera, apps and service ( in my area verizon is better). i like the camera and the over abundance of apps for the iphone better except that it doesnt have a flash whereas the droid does. i figure eventually the apps for droid will roll in more and i think they are working on the camera.

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post #14 of 54 Old 05-11-2010, 08:10 PM
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does droid do android 2.2????
OS/apps aside, I don't like Android because once you buy a phone running it, you've got to pray to the manufacturer, carrier, and Google ... that when a new OS is released, they'll find it in their heart to backport it to your older device. And by older, I mean "not the absolute latest".

That bullshit update model has been around since the late 90's and only serves the companies involved.

Christ, even Microsoft ditched that update model with their upcoming Windows Phone 7 OS (which they -- not the carrier or manufacturer -- are in control of pushing out to the user).

That, and Android devices are freaking outdated TWO MONTHS after they come out. Everything depreciates, but christ, 60 days after you buy it, there's a new device out that smokes yours?!

Droid Does .. for all of October/November. Then the Nexus One comes out in January on T-Mobile and "Does It Better" (both in hardware and OS). And by now, when everyone expected the CDMA version of the Nexus One to come out on Sprint/Verizon, that gets ditched because the HTC Droid Incredible is coming out, which "Does" better than the Nexus One from January, and really craps on the Droid from six months ago.

Android is a cool OS, and there are some cool phones out there. But it definitely isn't all sunshine and bunny rabbits over there.
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post #15 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 04:44 AM Thread Starter
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at&t's 4g deployment isnt even expected to be running till second half of 2011, so having a phone that can run it will not be much use.
My bad, should have explained better.

Ever year since Iphone launch there has been a new Iphone release in June during Apple's WWDC event (I forget what it's called exactly). So following the trend for the few years Iphone has been around... It can't hurt to wait and see.





FREE OS Updates....

Droid Doesn't
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post #16 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 07:20 AM
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i like the droid and i love the iphone

i think if anything these days you have to consider coverage..it is a cell phone after all

i have ATT and in the DC area ATT coverage sucks balls compared to Verizon, if i wasn't on my company's plan, i would have Verizon and the new HTC Droid Incredible...its a cool device

Apple has an amazing thing going for it, the APP STORE.. the android cant keep up with it yet....the iphone is a wonderful toy and a decent phone. thats how i look at it, i have played around with the Motorola Droid, and it looks and feels tough, almost industrial strength like. but it doesnt have any sex appeal that the iphone has, the iphone is a gorgeous device to use

choices are out there
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post #17 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 09:33 AM
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Wow...completely missed this thread as I have been so busy with the other two...now three and this is a fourth. I gotta say though...there is SO much misinformation in these threads. People need to research and know what the fuck they are talking about before posting.

Now...to clear something up. When I say the Droid is better than the iPhone I am not really talking about the OS. Yes...both have their ups and downs. Stevie Jobs is a tool and likes to be god in his own little world. Thats why there is no flash on the iPhone. Doesn't matter if flash sucks or not or if it would drain the battery...people want it because its what is primarily used right now. End of discussion on that point. The iPhone has a perfectly good OS. I do not like the fact that it is a closed OS however. The Android OS is open for anybody with the right knowhow to make an app and improve the system. Its up to the user to know what to do from there. The Android OS is also way more customizable without "jailbreaking/rooting" it. Just saying...its a feature I think is better.

Now for the reasons I really think the Android phones are better. Since I have the Moto Droid and the Droid Incredible just came out I will ignore the lower end models. There are several different models of Android phones all of which have different hardware. But the differences in hardware are all a lot greater than each new version of the iPhone that comes out which has for the most part remained the same since the beginning. Which is also fucked up if you ask me...

Feature/iPhone/Moto Droid/Droid Incredible

Camera/3MP/5MP/8MP
Camera Flash/No/Yes/Yes
Processor/600mhz/550mhz/1ghz (These can all be overclocked...I know that. Currently my droid is at 1.2ghz)
Ram/256/256/512
Onboard Memory/8-32/None/8gig
Expandable Memory/None/up to 32/up to 16 (Moto Droid comes with 16gig card and Incredible comes with 2gig.)
Removable battery/No/Yes/Yes (And hell yes this is a huge deal to me.)

Now my whole point to this is that I have more control and freedom with my Droid than I do with an iPhone. I did at one point own an iPhone. Thats a story for another time. Most people that have an iPhone were drawn in from having an iPod. I never had an iPod...mostly because iTunes is a joke. Why you would want to purchase songs in a format that is proprietary to one brand when you can get MP3 is beyond me. Oh hey...Android phones can play iTunes music...yay. I never invested in iTunes and never will. Its a ripoff.

If you guys wanna get into the whole network issue. Frankly GSM is more popular because it is CHEAPER to implement. It is also inferior in my opinion. Yes GSM will allow for faster speeds through the towers. But what GSM does not do is allow as many people to connect to one tower as CDMA does. That means AT&T has to have WAY more towers installed to cover the same number of people that a CDMA network can cover with fewer towers. THIS is why AT&T is having so many issues with dropped calls and people not getting connected with their iPhones. Not enough towers to cover the populace. AT&T as of this month has the highest dropped call rate of all the carriers with Verizon at the lowest. http://gizmodo.com/5535410/att-takes...+%28Gizmodo%29

Anyway...you all have fun ripping me apart now. I have been overly aggressive and probably pretty assinine in the other iPhone threads. This is the reasoning behind my psychosis. You all have a great day.

Oh...and OS updates are free on Android. Not sure where you are going there. We will also see what this new iPhone turns out to be hardware wise. I really truly hope they crank it up 10 notches or so and start competing with other phones more. If it comes out with a 1 gig proc, a gig of ram and a kickass camera ill change my tune a bit.

Couple of other articles to read...
http://www.cellular-news.com/story/43244.php
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...article_MoreIn Yipee?

Last edited by Vertisce; 05-12-2010 at 09:39 AM.
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post #18 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Wow...completely missed this thread as I have been so busy with the other two...now three and this is a fourth. I gotta say though...there is SO much misinformation in these threads. People need to research and know what the fuck they are talking about before posting.

Now...to clear something up. When I say the Droid is better than the iPhone I am not really talking about the OS. Yes...both have their ups and downs. Stevie Jobs is a tool and likes to be god in his own little world. Thats why there is no flash on the iPhone. Doesn't matter if flash sucks or not or if it would drain the battery...people want it because its what is primarily used right now. End of discussion on that point. The iPhone has a perfectly good OS. I do not like the fact that it is a closed OS however. The Android OS is open for anybody with the right knowhow to make an app and improve the system. Its up to the user to know what to do from there. The Android OS is also way more customizable without "jailbreaking/rooting" it. Just saying...its a feature I think is better.

Now for the reasons I really think the Android phones are better. Since I have the Moto Droid and the Droid Incredible just came out I will ignore the lower end models. There are several different models of Android phones all of which have different hardware. But the differences in hardware are all a lot greater than each new version of the iPhone that comes out which has for the most part remained the same since the beginning. Which is also fucked up if you ask me...

Feature/iPhone/Moto Droid/Droid Incredible

Camera/3MP/5MP/8MP
Camera Flash/No/Yes/Yes
Processor/600mhz/550mhz/1ghz (These can all be overclocked...I know that. Currently my droid is at 1.2ghz)
Ram/256/256/512
Onboard Memory/8-32/None/8gig
Expandable Memory/None/up to 32/up to 16 (Moto Droid comes with 16gig card and Incredible comes with 2gig.)
Removable battery/No/Yes/Yes (And hell yes this is a huge deal to me.)

Now my whole point to this is that I have more control and freedom with my Droid than I do with an iPhone. I did at one point own an iPhone. Thats a story for another time. Most people that have an iPhone were drawn in from having an iPod. I never had an iPod...mostly because iTunes is a joke. Why you would want to purchase songs in a format that is proprietary to one brand when you can get MP3 is beyond me. Oh hey...Android phones can play iTunes music...yay. I never invested in iTunes and never will. Its a ripoff.

If you guys wanna get into the whole network issue. Frankly GSM is more popular because it is CHEAPER to implement. It is also inferior in my opinion. Yes GSM will allow for faster speeds through the towers. But what GSM does not do is allow as many people to connect to one tower as CDMA does. That means AT&T has to have WAY more towers installed to cover the same number of people that a CDMA network can cover with fewer towers. THIS is why AT&T is having so many issues with dropped calls and people not getting connected with their iPhones. Not enough towers to cover the populace. AT&T as of this month has the highest dropped call rate of all the carriers with Verizon at the lowest. http://gizmodo.com/5535410/att-takes...+%28Gizmodo%29

Anyway...you all have fun ripping me apart now. I have been overly aggressive and probably pretty assinine in the other iPhone threads. This is the reasoning behind my psychosis. You all have a great day.

Oh...and OS updates are free on Android. Not sure where you are going there. We will also see what this new iPhone turns out to be hardware wise. I really truly hope they crank it up 10 notches or so and start competing with other phones more. If it comes out with a 1 gig proc, a gig of ram and a kickass camera ill change my tune a bit.

Couple of other articles to read...
http://www.cellular-news.com/story/43244.php
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...article_MoreIn Yipee?
CHEERS!!

Thank you for taking the time to explain your argument instead of the typical "Iphone sucks" "Droid is better" Now you have valid points here. But you can not compare the new Droid Incredible phone that just came out to a phone that is almost a year old. That is like comparing a one year old $2,000 laptop to a brand new $2,000 laptop, of course it will be faster and better.

Droid was released on October 17, 2009. So that is roughly 4months after the 4gs. It would be stupid for any company to make it the exact same specs (open source excluded here, only hardware) as the main reason for the Droid was to compete with Iphone. They had to up the scale to get more people to come back to Verizon that went to AT&T just for the Iphone.

I will not deny that the Iphone saved AT&T's ass 100%. Personally I never had a problem with Verizon and was with them for over 5 years. but AT&T had the Iphone and that's why I moved. I do not have any reception problems or anything related on where I live with AT&T. My Iphone even worked in the Bahamas with no problem at all.

And yes Steve Jobs is a douche that thinks he is god....a what a douche he is.

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post #19 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:25 AM
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Now...to clear something up. When I say the Droid is better than the iPhone I am not really talking about the OS.
Really? 20 posts later and you finally think to add this?! LOL

Quote:
Stevie Jobs is a tool and likes to be god in his own little world. Thats why there is no flash on the iPhone.
Actually, there's six specific reasons Apple hasn't implemented Flash.
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Quote:
The iPhone has a perfectly good OS. I do not like the fact that it is a closed OS however. The Android OS is open for anybody with the right knowhow to make an app and improve the system. Its up to the user to know what to do from there. The Android OS is also way more customizable without "jailbreaking/rooting" it.
Christ, I actually agree with you.

Quote:
Now for the reasons I really think the Android phones are better.
The biggest reason Android phones are better is because there's a new one released every two months.

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But what GSM does not do is allow as many people to connect to one tower as CDMA does. That means AT&T has to have WAY more towers installed to cover the same number of people that a CDMA network can cover with fewer towers.
The biggest factor as to the number of towers is the frequency the carrier operates on. Verizon generally uses 850mhz with 1900mhz fill-in. The FCC only allows two carriers per market to use 850mhz, the rest have to use 1900mhz. Carriers using 850mhz get better in-building coverage with fewer towers simply because 850mhz passes through solid objects easier. AT&T has few 850mhz markets (and Sprint and T-Mobile have none) simply because when they came to that market, the two 850mhz slots were already assigned to other carriers. That has nothing to do with CDMA, GSM, or LTE.

Quote:
THIS is why AT&T is having so many issues with dropped calls and people not getting connected with their iPhones. Not enough towers to cover the populace.
The issue that AT&T and some other carriers w/ the iPhones are having with the iPhones has to do with the towers signaling channels becoming congested. That's a factor of the newer generation smartphones switching from connected to idle more frequently to conserve battery life. This is why in some metro areas, you can have a perfect 5 bars of coverage, but still have a call go straight to voicemail (w/o your phone ringing), or you call drop when its handed over to another tower. Again, not a GSM or CDMA issue.

http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderd...-iphone-users/

Verizon will face this same issue, except they've had the luxury of learning from AT&T's experience and being proactive about the situation, as they haven't had a widely popular smartphone before Droid.


Quote:
Oh...and OS updates are free on Android. Not sure where you are going there.
If -- any only if -- Google, the phone manufacturer, and the carrier decide to release the OS update for the specific handset. How long did you go as a Droid user, after Android 2.1 came out for the Nexus One, before you heard if your Droid was going to get it? Months.

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post #20 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:38 AM
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Really? 20 posts later and you finally think to add this?! LOL


Actually, there's six specific reasons Apple hasn't implemented Flash.
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

Agreed...but the people still want it.

Christ, I actually agree with you.


The biggest reason Android phones are better is because there's a new one released every two months.

Yes...but usually by different manufacturers. iPhone is yet again proprietary which in this case is a bit of a downfall if they choose not to upgrade the hardware specs to a certain point.


The biggest factor as to the number of towers is the frequency the carrier operates on. Verizon generally uses 850mhz with 1900mhz fill-in. The FCC only allows two carriers per market to use 850mhz, the rest have to use 1900mhz. Carriers using 850mhz get better in-building coverage with fewer towers simply because 850mhz passes through solid objects easier. That has nothing to do with CDMA, GSM, or LTE.

This is true but there is still a factor of how many people can be on each tower. LTE will definately resolve that issue for both AT&T and VZW. The sooner the better. Also VZW invests over 5 billion...yes thats billion not million...a year on network improvement. Notice I said improvement not maintanance. AT&T...not so much. That has to say something.

The issue that AT&T and some other carriers w/ the iPhones are having with the iPhones has to do with the towers signaling channels becoming congested. That's a factor of the newer generation smartphones switching from connected to idle more frequently to conserve battery life. This is why in some metro areas, you can have a perfect 5 bars of coverage, but still have a call go straight to voicemail (w/o your phone ringing), or you call drop when its handed over to another tower. Again, not a GSM or CDMA issue.

Again its a factor but its still only a part of the problem. VZW has just as many smartphone users as AT&T...well...not quite but close enough. VZW has not had this congestion issue like AT&T has. Again...LTE will fix this issue anyway.


http://blogs.barrons.com/techtraderd...-iphone-users/

Verizon will face this same issue, except they've had the luxury of learning from AT&T's experience and being proactive about the situation, as they haven't had a widely popular smartphone before Droid.

You do realize that the iPhone and the Android are still dwarfed by RIM/Blackberry right? I can't say I agree with this entirely because Blackberry has been around a lot longer and both companies have plenty of those floating around.


If -- any only if -- Google, the phone manufacturer, and the carrier decide to release the OS update for the specific handset. How long did you go as a Droid user, after Android 2.1 came out for the Nexus One, before you heard if your Droid was going to get it? Months.

I agree...major pain in the ass to wait for it. But there was a reason for it. Hardware differences between the different manufacturers for one. iPhone doesn't have to worry about this so much but they rarely do software updates as it is. They just roll out the new phone a year later. But...it wasnt much of an issue for me waiting for the update. It came when it was ready.
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post #21 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:38 AM
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post #22 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:52 AM
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post #23 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Vertisce View Post
Agreed...but the people still want it.
They do. And when Adobe finally releases a smartphone version that's stable, not resource intensive, and fully supports a touch-OS, then I really wouldn't be surprised to see Apple switch their stance on Flash.

Quote:
Yes...but usually by different manufacturers. iPhone is yet again proprietary which in this case is a bit of a downfall if they choose not to upgrade the hardware specs to a certain point.
Agreed, but it's also a downfall to buy the latest Android phone, only to see your investment outdated (and resale value plummet, which sucks if you depend reselling your phone to offset the cost of non-fully subsidized yearly upgrades) 60 days later.

Quote:
Also VZW invests over 5 billion...yes thats billion not million...a year on network improvement. Notice I said improvement not maintanance. AT&T...not so much. That has to say something.
Hold up. AT&T has committed to investing between $18 and $19 billion dollars this year on 3G network/backhaul improvements. That's $2 billion more than the $16 billion they spent last year. http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-10443984-266.html

[quote]Again its a factor but its still only a part of the problem. VZW has just as many smartphone users as AT&T...well...not quite but close enough.
Quote:
You do realize that the iPhone and the Android are still dwarfed by RIM/Blackberry right?
You do realize that Blackberry's maintain a constant data connection, right? (i.e. they aren't switching to idle/reconnecting, which causes the signaling channel congestion)

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But...it wasnt much of an issue for me waiting for the update. It came when it was ready.
Touche. The same thing can be said in regards to the iPhone's once-a-year hardware update.
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post #24 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Vertisce View Post
I never had an iPod...mostly because iTunes is a joke. Why you would want to purchase songs in a format that is proprietary to one brand when you can get MP3 is beyond me. Oh hey...Android phones can play iTunes music...yay. I never invested in iTunes and never will. Its a ripoff.
I don't think you understand what iTunes is.

iTunes is a media manager/player/CD ripper.

It works with AAC, MP3, WAV, and a bunch of other formats.

If you want, you can use iTunes to purchase tracks from the iTunes Store. Totally optional. Most people fill their iTunes library by ripping their own CDs, borrowing their buddy's external drive of MP3s, or buying from places like Walmart.com/Amazon.com, both of which will download your purchases in MP3 format and put them in iTunes for you.

Oh, if you do purchase from the iTunes Store, your song comes down in AAC format, which is not proprietorial.

"AAC is also the default or standard audio format for: Apple's iPhone, iPod, iPad, Nintendo DSi, iTunes, DivX Plus Web Player, Sony's PlayStation 3 and is supported by Sony's PlayStation Portable, latest generation of Sony Walkman, phones from Sony Ericsson, the latest S40 and S60 models from Nokia, Android based phones, Nintendo's Wii (with the Photo Channel 1.1 update installed for Wii consoles purchased before late 2007), the Nintendo DSi and the MPEG-4 video standard"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding

You've got some strong opinions, which is cool, it's just that you keep throwing in half-facts.
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post #25 of 54 Old 05-12-2010, 11:03 AM
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Thats what the 10.1 update is supposed to be. Basically useable on smartphones. But Apple wont change their minds im thinking. Simply because Jobs is promoting HTML5 over Flash. But its not going to fully catch on for many years yet. I agree with the comment on investment in a phone. Its a give and take. Frankly all my old phones are given away for free. Family members get my old smartphones and I have even donated them to charity before. I usually get a new phone every 6 months...as does my wife. I know AT&T is spending a lot of money on their network but its to fix the problems caused by their lack of investment in the past. VZW has for 9 of its 10 years consistently invested 5 billion or more on improving the network. That is not including the extra costs of just maintaining and repairing what is already there. I see your point in the constant data connection vs dropping and reconnecting. Thats something I was not aware of. Ill research that more later.

I know it was proprietary at one point. Did that change? I know this because I am positive that at one point iPods did not play MP3 and only played iTunes format songs. Which is AAC I know that much. I was also under the impression that those files at the time could not be played in any other player like Win Media and whatnot. That may have changed...this was years ago when iPods first came out.

Last edited by Vertisce; 05-12-2010 at 11:07 AM.
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