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Drive shaft and pinion question

13K views 67 replies 16 participants last post by  ChuckTheRipper 
#1 ·
I have read the info here until my eyes hurt. I just got a jeep a year ago. Will lift it sometime next year.
So my question. In a perfect world, would you want the caster at lets say 5° and pinion parallel to the shaft at ride height? Thank you in advance
 
#2 ·
If it's an aftermarket double cardan shaft then yes. And 4* of castor is about what stock is, 4.2 or something.

If it's a stock shaft then you can run 5 or maybe more degrees of castor if you want.

If I could do it all again I would order an aftermarket driveshaft with the new teraflex high angle rzeppa joint on the transfer case end. This is what you should be looking into if you are shopping for a shaft. Zero maintenance, can run any castor you want, no clearance issues.
 
#4 ·
I set all JK's I work on at 5* caster and they drive beautifully. Unless you are building a custom axle and/or massive lift, the pinion angle will be what it is (in the front). Anything over 4" lift and you will need a custom driveshaft with a CV (double cardan) for the front. on the 2 door, you will need both front and rear over 4" of lift assuming you are running a standard lift. Long travel, 3-link, etc will require custom driveshafts anyways.

Ideal pinion angle will be 1.5-2* lower than your driveshaft angle to allow movement in the driveshaft and twist from torque. If the pinion is perfectly aligned with the driveshaft you will get wobble and vibration.
 
#5 ·
Thank you rubi 8. So in a perfect world, the pinion angle would be 1° to 2° lower than the drive shaft and the caster would be 5°? Just a crazy thought: could someone make an axle with adjustable C's?
 
#11 · (Edited)
Every axle has adjustable C's. It's just a lot of work to adjust them. Cutting, grinding and welding is involved. Kind of like installing a lot of things on a Jeep. I don't understand people spending thousands of dollars on a new housing, when they could "adjust" their C's with the same tools they installed their lift kit with.

Just my opinion but, I believe as your tires get bigger and wider, the need to run more caster increases. Hydro assist or full hydro will have different needs for the amount of caster too. So I don't buy into a blanket set spec of caster to run. The stock caster was set for a stock height Jeep running stock wheels and tires. It was set so the steering wheel was easy to turn pulling into a parking spot at the mall by a woman, and doesn't feel flighty going down the Hwy. As soon as you leave that box, the needs for increased caster go up.
 
#7 ·
5 degrees tends to be the ideal caster for a lifted JK. A stock JK axle has 6 degrees of separation, so if caster is 5* pinion is 1*, if caster is 6* then pinion is 0*, and so on. Generally speaking, with a DC shaft you want minimal angle at the pinion joint at ride height. The stock driveshaft is much less particular about the angle it runs at.

Aftermarket housings area available with a larger amount of separation - usually it is 10*. So, using the above example, 5* caster would be 5* pinion.

Now, for those if us that run 1 ton axles, there is less concern as you drive around with the hubs unlocked. With the stock JK axle, you driveshaft is always spinning when you drive, so there has to be some balance in terms of caster/pinion.

All that said, you can adjust the Cs on your axle. Just cut the welds, rotate and re-weld. It really isn't that hard, but for some reason people tend to avoid it.
 
#10 ·



well, that was implied, @Fusion 4x4 :smokin:
but you are correct because I did not add that . It is not a quick little cut and reweld for many non-shop access /home mechanic guys are gonna do( tho entirely possible as Fusion mentions) so I didnt mention that they are adjustable if ya wanna basically reassemble the whole housing after whacking the Cs /bracketry off, forsure.
:jeep2: .
 
#9 ·
To add more to this, the main problem with stock jk axles is that they don't have enough degrees of separation between the pinion and the C's. IIRC, it is around 6 degrees of separation. There are aftermarket axles that have a more preferable 10 degrees of separation. This allows you to set a good pinion angle and still retain good castor. The problem with the jk axle is that with around 4" of lift you cant set either to be reasonable so you always have to make a decision of do I want it to drive good or deal with driveshaft vibrations. If you set it in the middle, both suck. When I had my axle out last year I did what is called a "cut and turn" on the C's which is where you remove the C's from the axle tubes and re-weld them back on with more degrees of separation. I went with 11 degrees total and it's been great.

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#12 ·
I saw a cut and turn once where the guy cut the axle tube just inboard of the C's, then insterted a sleeve and plug welded it in like normal. After all this he welded the cut ends back on over the sleeve but rotated to the new angle. This seems like really fool proof way to turn the C's.
 
#13 ·
I don't understand why Jeep doesn't product the axles with more split.
I personally think a JK drives better with 6º of caster.
Why not make it factory spec as 6º with a prefect pinion angle split right from the dealer.
Probably 1/2 of all the JK's out there will be lifted at some point and a larger pinion-caster split would help.
 
#14 ·
Thank you for all the the answers. I do have a jeep and i am thinking about lifting it, not too much, 2 1/2" max. However i was looking for a therocial answer. I found something on the net that says that the pinion and t casr flange should be within 1° max of each other so that they cancel out each others harmonics. Granted the shaft angle has limitations. I know i am over thinging this. Also i do not what a shaft the needs attention every 5000 miles. So let me ask this;
What would be the best driveshaft with a 2 1/2" lift, which may be 3 1/2" actual, without messing with the exhaust. I have a 80lb steel bumber up front and stock in the back. No plans for a winch, but a new steel bumber in the back when i find one that i like. Of course with a tire carrier. Going to get the ridge grapplers (285/75-17) on mt classic rims in the spring. For all of my reading, i know, i am leaning towards the metal cloack with new upper or lower front arms to start. No brackets. I leave in ct, and there is no place near to take it off road. Again thanks for all of the responses. Jeep should be reading these forums, but like most things in the world now, it is only about the bottom line. You guys have a great day
 
#26 ·
Johnny4fish,

If you stick with the 2.5" MetalCloak lift you will not need driveshafts and everything will line up and drive just fine. Yes, you are way over thinking this topic. You can always call the crew at MetalCloak and they will give you honest answers. I have always enjoyed talking to them and absolutely love their springs!

Wow this thread went down a rabbit hole never to return haha! Seriously good information here from some bad ass builders. >:)
 
#24 ·
So the idea here was that when you do a cut and turn it winds up leaving the spring perches in a bad spot as far as angle. So you have to grind the spring perches off as well and install new ones or reinstall the old ones. It does the same thing for the track bar mount. I didnt want to do all that work so I got a set of knock in axle sleeves as they fit the tube inner diameter better than the weld in tubes. I installed them like weld in tubes though. I cut the stock axle tubes in a couple of careful spots and then welded it all back together with the new angles set using the axle sleeves to keep it all aligned. It worked good and I've had no issues with it.







 
#25 ·
#27 ·
To add more.... sometimes with even the best name brand 1310 double cardan style driveshafts you just can't shake the vibes. I had a tatton shaft that was garbage straight from him. I had it repaired even though it was new because I needed it NOW and I still never got rid of the vibration. There seems to be a combo of things that make your chances of vibration significantly higher. I know two variables to that equation are high numeric gear ratio and more than 2.5" of lift.

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#29 ·
Thank you all. I only know what i have been reading here. Great info. I actually love the banter. You guys, and ladies, know so much. Much of it, probably form the school of hard knocks. I have read every word and appreciate all of it
 
#39 ·
Its almost always the thin wall tubing that the stock rear shaft is made of that causes its demise. Think of the shaft as an empty beer can. You could stack a few heavy books on an empty can if it has zero dents in it. Put one little dent in the side of it and then try that again and it will give it up fast.
 
#45 ·
that's not just tubing and slip joints ,Chuck; it's
"Laser Welded ,balanced 2-3/8” carbon steel tubing" ,dude!
Methinks that may translate to ," huge bank account emptying and butt-reaming pole" in Teraflexian but they're forgiven for things like ball joints and their version of the D60 ...
 
#46 ·
I hate to bash any maker but I would stay away from tatton. I can tell you a hell of a story about a pair of shafts I got from him earlier this year. Bottom line they were both shit and poor workmanship. I would look at adams and je reel.

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#49 ·
Short version is I did get the parts that I requested like Spicer sealed joints but the slip portion was of super poor quality and the splined end was manufactured off center of where it attaches to the pinion yoke. Also the tubing that was welded was done so off center by upwards of .030" which just could not be balanced out fully. There were a shit ton of weights on one side of the shaft. When I confronted him about it he basically said "its not possible" and wouldn't do shit about it.

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#50 · (Edited)
wow. These mistakes / off-welds were not offered to be corrected at all?! Tough to grasp how he can have such longevity of business + on eBay store with such shoddy product output but I sort of maybe recall similar complaints from some people from a few years ago .

In defense of @Dkjeep , I received no response whatsoever from my brief , polite & succinct email to Tatton yesterday morning asking about a rear DS and options for the CV joint.
Did you just absorb the lost $ or buy another DS ? That's the type of work that SHOULD have internet image posts about it on forums , if ya follow my insinuation...


Thanks for heads up , guys
 
#51 ·
So I had just done a LOT of work to my jeep when I installed this shaft and on the first drive I noticed the vibration. Not knowing where it was coming from as I had just done tons of work I trouble shot it buy just removing the shaft and like magic the vibration was gone. I reinstalled it after checking it over and same vibration came right back. Not knowing if my setup was bad or the shaft was I decided to pay a small fee to just have the balance checked on the shaft at a local shop. I dropped if off and a couple of hours later the guy calls me and says that the balance checked out "ok" at best and it could be improved. He stated that was the least of my issues though and asked if I could swing back by. I want to pause here for a sec to just mention that I am a machinist in the aviation industry for a living and have more than a good understanding for reading dial indicators, understanding tolerances, and associated stuff like that. When I got there the shaft was still mounted on his machine and he proceeded to show me how far off center the tubing and slip portion was welded in relation to where the centerline of the shaft was supposed to be. He said we can re-balance it as good as possible at a very high speed but he couldn’t guarantee with the condition of how it was made that it would cure it. I decided to let him do it because I needed it for a trip I was about to make that weekend. Although better it still wasn’t right and after that trip I removed and sold them at a nice loss. Before I sold them I emailed and called, couldn’t reach him either way. He finally after days responded to the email and stated that he didn’t see how that was possible and how many he has built with no issues and on and on and on (google says otherwise). I am not going to argue to death with someone over $300 so I chalked it up to a lesson learned and decided that I will warn anyone else who suggest this guy. That in the long run will cost him more than making my deal right.
 
#53 ·
Tom woods gets another vote in my book for a good shaft. People get sucked in by paying attention to the main important parts like the joints themselves but rarely pay attention to who makes the other parts like the slip joint or the yokes. The driveshaft shop I took my shaft to said they get tons of flyers, emails, and mailings per week for china vendors who want to sell their driveshaft parts to them in bulk for just crazy cheap prices. They said the trade-off is not worth it as you get just garbage quality stuff and anyone who has an eye for precision wouldn't even give those parts the time of day. I suspect that CJ Tatton uses garbage like this to save a buck and still charges full retail for a shaft that is lesser quality. That's just an educated guess from what I have seen but I don't know any other way to explain it.
 
#54 ·
nope, that is damn good-enough feedback to cause me to be able to ask," Tatton who?" in as long as it takes a 48yr old brain to forget stuff ( not long) .
I asked because of some of the things I had read . I woulda been p.o.ed to spend that much to receive junk like that. let it be consolatory to look back at the experiences ,aware that sometimes costly lessons are best avenged by the ability to alert others of the lack-of-quality, even-after the fact, seeing that your data is preventing others from buying junk.

Especially on something like driveshafts, which, i am pretty sure centering is pretty high on the list of prerequisites for the finished product to possess .

can't speak for others but like I said, I'm doin precursory searches since my main wheeling season has begun ; I wanna be ready to grab a rear shaft should I have any issues with the summer upgrades maybe have redirected the weakest-link on my Jeep to the back DS. You've shared good input/info & when the time comes to get a rear driveshaft, I'll send my money to Mr. Woods , just as I did for my JKs front DS ...
'preciate it:jeep2:
 
#56 · (Edited)
Especially on something like driveshafts, which, i am pretty sure centering is pretty high on the list of prerequisites for the finished product to possess .
To put it into further perspective the driveshaft shop I went to said when they make their shafts that nothing leaves there unless it is under .005" from being completely centered. If I had of known that they make shafts to start with I would have just had them make them.

Crazy stuff! I can hardly believe you're talking about the same place I got mine from! Mine has no vibes up to >80, and when we found out the tflex rzeppa band wasn't quite tight enough, he even paid for return shipping to fix it in a couple days. Couple guys I've wheeled with love their tatton shafts too. Weird.
The guy has a bunch of shafts out there and there are plenty of happy customers of his. I don't know if he has one crap employee or has a bad day from time to time or what the deal is but there are enough stories like mine and Sok66 out there that I will never chance it again with him and I will always recommend that others don't roll the dice there either.


I specifically remember when I gave him all of the poor tolerances the shaft showing and him telling me that "it wasn't possible" if he had googled himself lately. lol
 
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