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post #1 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 09:25 AM Thread Starter
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The great gun debate

Well I know this is a big can of worms, and anti-gun people are going to be anti-gun (usually right up until they or someone they love is victimized) but anyway, I figure we may as well start the debate thread so that all the other gun threads don't disintegrate into arguments.

Here's my outlook....

I don't care how polite you are or how well you can defend yourself and your loved ones, if Mr. Methhead pulls a weapon, you're choices become pretty limited.
Plus, with random shooting sprees becoming more commonplace, if some nutso starts spraying lead randomly around the mall, better to try to give him some back than just die in front of Footlocker.
My girlfriend used to be a little nervous when she found out I carry 24/7, but now when she watches the news and the latest rape/murder/stabbing/kidnapping/shooting spree/etc comes on, she looks at me and says "I'm so glad you carry baby".
I don't understand how anyone can realistically think that in today's society, good, law abiding people should be prevented from being armed if they choose to be.
The bad guys are gonna have guns, no matter if they're illegal or not.
You think someone who is willing to shoot someone in a crime, is going to be abide by an anti-gun law?
If you live ina place where criminals will follow a law that says they aren't allowed to have a gun, I wanna move there!
Admittedly, some people get a hold of guns that shouldn't have access to any weapons (mental illness etc) but they can do that same damage with a car or looking up how to make explosives on the internet, etc.
If a person wants to do harm, they WILL find a way.
Remember, one of the biggest tragedies this country has known on it's own soil (9-11) was accomplished without a single gun involved.
As far as 'Rambo wanna be's', there seems to be a lot more 'Scarface wanna-be's' last I looked.
To get a concealed permit here in TX requires a THOROUGH background check plus an 8 hour class, submitting to being fingerprinted and a shooting skill test.

A gun is a tool, how it's used is up to the hand it's in.
A hammer can be used to build a hospital or smash a skull.
A gun can be used to save a life or take a life.

Anti-gun folk, you may begin to pick this apart now.


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Last edited by venom; 05-09-2008 at 09:28 AM.
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post #2 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by venom View Post
Well I know this is a big can of worms, and anti-gun people are going to be anti-gun (usually right up until they or someone they love is victimized) but anyway, I figure we may as well start the debate thread so that all the other gun threads don't disintegrate into arguments.

Here's my outlook....

I don't care how polite you are or how well you can defend yourself and your loved ones, if Mr. Methhead pulls a weapon, you're choices become pretty limited.
Plus, with random shooting sprees becoming more commonplace, if some nutso starts spraying lead randomly around the mall, better to try to give him some back than just die in front of Footlocker.
My girlfriend used to be a little nervous when she found out I carry 24/7, but now when she watches the news and the latest rape/murder/stabbing/kidnapping/shooting spree/etc comes on, she looks at me and says "I'm so glad you carry baby".
I don't understand how anyone can realistically think that in today's society, good, law abiding people should be unarmed.
The bad guys are gonna have guns, no matter if they're illegal or not.
You think someone who is willing to shoot someone in a crime, is going to be abide by an anti-gun law?
If you live ina place where criminals will follow a law that says they aren't allowed to have a gun, I wanna move there!
Admittedly, some people get a hold of guns that shouldn't have access to any weapons (mental illness etc) but they can do that same damage with a car or looking up how to make explosives on the internet, etc.
If a person wants to do harm, they WILL find a way.
Remember, one of the biggest tragedies this country has known on it's own soil (9-11) was accomplished without a single gun involved.
As far as 'Rambo wanna be's', there seems to be a lot more 'Scarface wanna-be's' last I looked.
To get a concealed permit here in TX requires a THOROUGH background check plus an 8 hour class, submitting to being fingerprinted and a shooting skill test.

A gun is a tool, how it's used is up to the hand it's in.
A hammer can be used to build a hospital or smash a skull.
A gun can be used to save a life or take a life.

Anti-gun folk, you may begin to pick this apart now.
X 1000
And thanks for putting this better than I could have.

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post #3 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 09:43 AM
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Nicely put. I plan to purchase a hand gun soon. I have my 22 rifle but it is not a good close range to protect my home kind of weapon. I have been doing a lot of shopping and I am pretty sure on my decision and I will apply for a carry license. In GA it is a little easier; application, pay a fee, background and fingerprint. I WILL NOT carry the weapon though until I get very comfortable shooting it. As you said, it can be a tool if in the right hands, it can also be very dangerous in untrained hands.

Seems there is a lot more legislation lately expanding where a licensed concealed carry can take their gun


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post #4 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:04 AM
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Good job venom. One of my favorite things to read about is when a state passes a pro-gun law (like concealed carry) and then you hear the usuals step in (Brady Campaign for example) and start talking about how there's going to be blood in the streets over parking spaces, in the aisles of grocery stores, or wherever. All of these people with their newly gotten permits are going to start shooting at the drop of a hat. Then, of course, it never happens. I'm still waiting to hear about a concealed carry permit holder knocking over a 7-11.

My other favorite is the "no guns" sign stuck on the window of a store. Yea, the criminal intending to rob the place is going to move on down the street when he see's that. It only works with law-abiding people.

The bottom line with me is...and it may sound Greek to a lot of people in today's society...I am responsible for my own and my family's safety. Not the gubberment...not the police.
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post #5 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BigO View Post
My other favorite is the "no guns" sign stuck on the window of a store. Yea, the criminal intending to rob the place is going to move on down the street when he see's that. It only works with law-abiding people.
Yeah, lets apply logic to that situation....
I own a business, all my money, time and energy is tied up there. All my days cash is in the till.
Do I want to specifically EXCLUDE the people from my business who have had detailed background checks that came out clean and have all their information VOLUNTARILY on file with law enforcement. You know, the known good guys. Let alone are capable of helping me out in the event of a criminal situation.
Do I want to only allow in the unknowns?
Hmmmm.
I'm gonna go with no on that one.......

Luckily here in TX, the sign has to be VERY exact to legally apply.
The verbage has to be exact, the letters a certain size, etc.
Otherwise it's merely a suggestion.

A friend was telling me he was on a hunting trip, I think it was some small town in Arizona. They went into the small town to grab lunch. The guy he was with still had his backup revolver around his waist, he says "let me run into the bank and grab some cash real quick". My buddy wigs out "You can't go into a bank with a gun on your hip!". The older guy laughs and invites him into the bank with him. Turns out EVERYONE in the bank had a holster strapped on. The guy made the point "Look around, is this a bank YOU would want to try to rob?"


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Quote:
Originally Posted by My Wife
I might just go crazy and kill you in your sleep, instead of just planning it.
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post #6 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:23 AM
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Read & Feel Good.....
http://www.streetpro.com/usp/stories.html

>I will bring Hell to anyone that threatens my Wife & Granddaughter, they have no idea what their Dealing with Semper Fi.



One I pulled out showing below:.
From: Michael White
This just in; dateline Washington, DC:

Two masked men armed with knives, duct tape, and a can of gasoline attacked three women in their home yesterday; a mother and her two adult daughters, one of whom is scheduled to testify in a trial. After a violent hand-to-hand fight in which all three women were injured, the mother got her handgun, and shot and wounded one of the assailants. He ran, but was later captured by the police. The other attacker escaped. The DA's office is now considering charges against the mother for possessing a gun, which is illegal in DC.

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post #7 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:26 AM
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Turns out EVERYONE in the bank had a holster strapped on. The guy made the point "Look around, is this a bank YOU would want to try to rob?"
But...but...but...that's what the police are for.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

Damn...I'll get up to 500 posts real quick with this topic.
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post #8 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:37 AM
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The DA's office is now considering charges against the mother for possessing a gun, which is illegal in DC.
If you leave out the highlighted text above, I'd guess that story was from Great Britain.
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post #9 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 10:43 AM
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If you leave out the highlighted text above, I'd guess that story was from Great Britain.
Ya BigO, I agree, I think that's why some hesitated to protect their self or family & a whole different outcome occurs...they get butchered.

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post #10 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:22 AM
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Oh, I'll just cut and paste my reply from the "Cool" thread since you've made it so convenient:

Well, it gets under my skin, too. Although I'm personally anti-gun, I have no problem with responsible adults owning guns and using them responsibly. The problem I see is that there are way, way too many gun owners that aren't responsible. And they're killing every day. The response of many gun owners is "we need more guns". To me, the problem is that we have too many guns and would be far better off with fewer guns. The more we promote guns in this society, the more killings we will have. Personally, I prefer to try and move forward to a more civilized society, not backwards to a less civilized society. We outgrew the horse and buggy, it's time we outgrow the need for "guns for protection", in my opinion.

The US has the highest number of gun related deaths of all western societies. Most studies have shown that having a gun in the house significantly increases the chance of violent death or suicide in the home. One can think they are protecting their family by having their guns. In some cases, that is undoubtly true. But, according to the scientific studies, the family is actually put at a significantly higher risk of violent death or suicide.

Everyone can make their own choice. However, if someone were selling me a new high tech electronic home safety feature guaranteed to fry a bad guy every time I would be interested. However if the fine print said that there was a 2 to 10 times higher likelihood that it would fry someone in your family, would you buy it?

As to your last point, I also hope this doesn't become a common theme on this forum. Personally, I'm disappointed that this section was added. This started as a Jeep forum. There are many gun forums elsewhere. Many Jeep owners are gun enthusiasts. Many aren't. Guns are a highly polarizing topic in this country. I'd prefer that we keep the Jeep forums Jeep related and let those that are gun enthusiasts go to the gun forums for that information.
post #11 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:25 AM Thread Starter
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Oh, I'll just cut and paste my reply from the "Cool" thread since you've made it so convenient:
As will I....

Please don't take this the wrong way, but
No one is making you read this section.
If you are anti-gun, that's fine, but if you make the conscious decision to click and read the gun based threads in the guns and ammo section of the board, then YOU have chosen to participate in this discussion area.
There is no law saying you must participate in every single section of the board.
Take personal responsibility for your own actions.
Don't like it, don't read or post in it.
Seems pretty simple to me.

I'll probably never goto Canada, so the Canada section of the board is of no use to me and their posts probably have no interest to me, but I'm not saying to remove it. Leave it for the Canadians and those with Canadian interests and I'll probably never read it.
(No offense to my Canuck friends, simply using it as an example)


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post #12 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:31 AM
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I think we all agree if we could move from a world of guns for protection it would be great. But in order to move from that world you first have to stop school shootings, rapes, murders, theft and so on. The more gun laws made to protect us from... well ourselves, only affects the law abiding citizens, not your criminals. A criminal breaks the law, including gun laws. Why give them the upper hand knowing they are the only one with a gun around and everyone else is empty handed?


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post #13 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:32 AM Thread Starter
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Perfectly stated Jerm!


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post #14 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:36 AM
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I think we all agree if we could move from a world of guns for protection it would be great. But in order to move from that world you first have to stop school shootings, rapes, murders, theft and so on. The more gun laws made to protect us from... well ourselves, only affects the law abiding citizens, not your criminals. A criminal breaks the law, including gun laws. Why give them the upper hand knowing they are the only one with a gun around and everyone else is empty handed?
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?
post #15 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:46 AM
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Personally, I prefer to try and move forward to a more civilized society, not backwards to a less civilized society. We outgrew the horse and buggy, it's time we outgrow the need for "guns for protection", in my opinion.
If the passengers on the 9/11 flights were carrying Louisville Sluggers, the terrorists may have been a little more civilized. I'm sure some of the passengers tried to reason with them in a civilized way, but it didn't work. Maybe it was the language barrier?

We didn't outgrow the horse and buggy, we, being the innovative people we are, found a more proficient way for getting from point A to point B. And it's improved upon all the time. With regard for protecting yourself from a criminal, there's no need to come up with a more proficient way. We already have it. Nothing to outgrow there.

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But, according to the scientific studies, the family is actually put at a significantly higher risk of violent death or suicide.
Proper training reduces that risk. And that's an individual responsibilty. Just like the new high-tech home safety feature...I'd buy it in a minute...AND receive thorough training on its use for me and all of my family. Risks are everywhere. You'll never completely get rid of them. It's a balancing act. I do what I can to make sure they fall in my favor.
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The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?
Better than if we took all the guns away from everyone except the criminals willing to break the anti-gun laws
The reality is, this is the world we live in.
There ARE alot of guns here.
Bad guys have a lot of guns.
Now you can choose to wish they didn't have them and hope they all go away.
Or you can deal with the situation.
Unless you can somehow remove every single gun in the country (even from the naughty liars who may tell you they don't have one, so they can use it for bad things) and only place them into righteous and just hands, you have to deal with the situation as it is.
Blindly hope nothing bad ever happens to you or your loved ones
OR
rest all of your trust that there will be a peace officer there IF something bad happens
OR
prepare yourself

Alternately you can try to build a time machine to fast forward to the Star Trek world when there is no violence, greed or need for money.
Oh wait, even in their Utopian Society, they still needed disruptor pistols and proton torpedos to deal with the beings who hadn't embraced that way of life.


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post #17 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 11:48 AM
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The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?
We also have the most fast food chains and the most fat people in the world. But wait, drugs like cocaine and heroine are illegal, yet we have the highest drug use rate in the world.

Wow...it's all so confusing.
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post #18 of 101 Old 05-09-2008, 01:36 PM
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gcg, no one on here started these Gun Sections to offend you, absolutely not the prime intention at all. We all share a lot of common intrest, so a CB, Pet, Boat, Camper, GPS, Fishing, etc, etc Sections are very interesting. If it's a must you have to click on one of these Gun threads, you have to no you'll be upset....just don't Click

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post #19 of 101 Old 05-11-2008, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gcg View Post
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?
how well would it work if the ONLY people who had guns were criminals who didn't care about "strict" gun laws?


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post #20 of 101 Old 05-11-2008, 06:12 PM
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how well would it work if the ONLY people who had guns were criminals who didn't care about "strict" gun laws?
This is basically a no win situation. Guns are a highly emotional, highly polarizing topic in this country. I have my strong opinions and the gun enthusiasts have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others with our arguments.

Just to sum it up for me, I have no problem with responsible adults having guns if they use them responsibly. For those that fit in this category, enjoy your sport. The problem I continually see, though, is that there are way, way too many in this country that don't fit that description. About 30k people or so a year are killed by guns. This is a horrible and tragic number. Evryone should be totally outraged by it. The argument always goes that it's the bad guys that have them. I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions. That is tragic on both sides. As for the old argument that we have lots of guns and until every last bad guy gives his up, we all need more guns - that's really pretty naive. Other countries have solved or minimized the problem (with the most guns, we have the highest death rate - not a very good indicator that more guns reduce the problem). We can't solve it in a day. The question is, which direction do you want the country to move in? More guns, and probably more deaths or fewer. To me it's all about choosing a direction and then trying to make changes in that direction over time. Personally, I choose to try and move to a less violent society and I don't see that more guns accomplishes that, quite the contrary.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, just stating mine. Having said that, I don't see any point in saying anything more on the subject. I do respect the opinions of others, even when I disagree, if they're well thought out.
post #21 of 101 Old 05-11-2008, 06:18 PM
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The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?
The questions I have when someone quotes these statistics are: How many of those are criminals killing criminals? How many of those are criminals agianst the unprotected/prepared? If you take those two things into account the number of gun related deaths goes down a bunch. If more people were prepared to shoot and kill an armed criminal they would not be a victom. Yes the number of gun related deaths would go up but shortly the crime rate (and thus that number) would go down due to the implied control of the criminal population. Yess it sounds cruel but if more people carried guns and were to use them in situations such as home invasion, robbery, rape, and the like two things would happen. 1. The number of repeat offenders would drop. 2. The number of people willing to risk death to do a crime such as this would drop as well. This would result in a lower crime rate and lower number of deaths due to guns.

BTW the criminal on criminal is just their own method of population control and I say let them have it out except for the innocent bystanders that et hurt in this process.

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post #22 of 101 Old 05-11-2008, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gcg View Post
This is basically a no win situation. Guns are a highly emotional, highly polarizing topic in this country. I have my strong opinions and the gun enthusiasts have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others with our arguments.

Just to sum it up for me, I have no problem with responsible adults having guns if they use them responsibly. For those that fit in this category, enjoy your sport. The problem I continually see, though, is that there are way, way too many in this country that don't fit that description. About 30k people or so a year are killed by guns. This is a horrible and tragic number. Evryone should be totally outraged by it. The argument always goes that it's the bad guys that have them. I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions. That is tragic on both sides. As for the old argument that we have lots of guns and until every last bad guy gives his up, we all need more guns - that's really pretty naive. Other countries have solved or minimized the problem (with the most guns, we have the highest death rate - not a very good indicator that more guns reduce the problem). We can't solve it in a day. The question is, which direction do you want the country to move in? More guns, and probably more deaths or fewer. To me it's all about choosing a direction and then trying to make changes in that direction over time. Personally, I choose to try and move to a less violent society and I don't see that more guns accomplishes that, quite the contrary.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, just stating mine. Having said that, I don't see any point in saying anything more on the subject. I do respect the opinions of others, even when I disagree, if they're well thought out.
Yes other countries have solved the death by guns problems but also have higher crime rates and criminals running things rather than law abiding citizens. You also have dictatorships and such where the government has complete control and individuals have no freedom. Here we have guns in our hands, criminals who have to wonder if the next place they rob might get them killed, and are free to make our own choices including owning guns.

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post #23 of 101 Old 05-12-2008, 12:02 AM
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You want research?

CDC 2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

"In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."

CDC 2008 (review cause of death statistics 2005)
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/

Make want you want of statistics, but in the in 2005 you were more likely to die from a fall (6.4 per 100,000 people) than accidental discharge of firearms (0.3 per 100,000) or homicide by firearm (4.2 per 100,000). Just for comparison: Transport accidents (16.2), Accidental poisoning (drug overdose) (7.9), cardiovascular diseases (277.3), cancer (183.8), Diabetes (24.6), Influenza and pneumonia (20.3) and Alcoholic liver disease (4.2).

So if you really want to save me from myself, GCG, before you take my guns you better take my ladders, my jeep, my cheeseburgers, and my beer. While you are at it, you should write some laws to require me to get a flu and pneumonia shot and have annual cancer screening.

From my view as a medical professional, I hate to see the effects violence (guns, knives, clubs, fists) and one innocent death is too many. The reason some people think guns are such a big problem is that gun violence is interesting front page news while other preventable illnesses and injuries are not.

Oh, and I forgot to mention an estimated average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

Meanwhile an estimated 50,000 persons die annually in the United States as a result of violence-related injuries.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5703a1.htm

You might be safer on the street with a gun than with me in the hospital!
Now that is something to protest and write laws about!

Walker
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post #24 of 101 Old 05-12-2008, 04:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcg View Post
I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions.
You are right on this one. That’s why in one of my post in the guns section I said I planned to get a permit but would only carry after I had spent some good time learning to shoot it. I was raised with guns and gun safety/respect so I am not worried about that. BUT what the hell good does a hand gun do me if I can shoot accurately?


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post #25 of 101 Old 05-12-2008, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by walker View Post
You want research?

CDC 2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

"In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."

CDC 2008 (review cause of death statistics 2005)
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/

Make want you want of statistics, but in the in 2005 you were more likely to die from a fall (6.4 per 100,000 people) than accidental discharge of firearms (0.3 per 100,000) or homicide by firearm (4.2 per 100,000). Just for comparison: Transport accidents (16.2), Accidental poisoning (drug overdose) (7.9), cardiovascular diseases (277.3), cancer (183.8), Diabetes (24.6), Influenza and pneumonia (20.3) and Alcoholic liver disease (4.2).

So if you really want to save me from myself, GCG, before you take my guns you better take my ladders, my jeep, my cheeseburgers, and my beer. While you are at it, you should write some laws to require me to get a flu and pneumonia shot and have annual cancer screening.

From my view as a medical professional, I hate to see the effects violence (guns, knives, clubs, fists) and one innocent death is too many. The reason some people think guns are such a big problem is that gun violence is interesting front page news while other preventable illnesses and injuries are not.

Oh, and I forgot to mention an estimated average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

Meanwhile an estimated 50,000 persons die annually in the United States as a result of violence-related injuries.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5703a1.htm

You might be safer on the street with a gun than with me in the hospital!
Now that is something to protest and write laws about!

Walker
Oh, OK. Gee, sorry. I just simply didn't understand that 30000 deaths was just fine with you as long as there are other ways to kill people out there. Silly me. Why the heck did we even care about 911 since it was only a measley 3000 people killed, what with all the hamburger deaths and everything. I mean terrorist deaths in this country must absolutely pale into insignificance when compared to bee stings. Right?

And I don't want to save you from yourself, walker. I want to save me and my family from you. To be perfectly blunt about it, it ain't the bad guy I fear in this country. I generally fear Bubba and his penis enlarging .45 strapped to his side, strutting around in camo. I'm 60 years old and have never been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one in my family has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one that I have ever worked with has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I went to school with has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I've known in my entire life has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. Not saying it can't happen tomorrow, but for 60 long years I simply haven't seen anyone that I know have a problem. So, to me, it isn't that big of a problem - maybe it is to you or maybe you just like your guns and the bad guy is a convenient argument.

On the other hand, here's what I have experienced with guns. In high school two students shot themselves to death with their father's guns. Then one of my daughter's classmates blew his head off with his father's shotgun. Then my wife's boss' father shot himself with a rifle. Then a guy down the street killed himself with a gun. Five needless deaths, no one saved in 60 years. Of course then there was the fun night camping when the responsible group of buzzed out 18 year olds decided to get up at midnight and start shooting their weapons all night long making those of us acting responsibly wonder if we were going to be shot. After an encore presentation the second night, we left out of fear. And of course, there are the endless piles of expended shot gun shells that littler the mountains in back of my house left by the responsible group. They haul their old wooden pallets, refrigerators, TV sets, etc. up there, shoot them to death and then leave them along with all the hardware laying on the ground. I do think that if attacked by a rogue TV, these guys would be handy to have around. Also, I no longer fear being attacked by a road sign as they have all been killed many times over by the responsible gun owners.

The facts are that the US has the largest gun ownership and the largest number of gun deaths of all western countries, as I've stated before. You can try and argue it anyway you want but those are the facts. If more guns in the hands of more people really made you safer, this should be one of the safest countries, not the one leading in gun deaths. You can say training will help, and maybe it will. But the numbers already include those that have chosen to train themselves.

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with responsible gun owners. But I personally think you are in the minority. If you really want to gain more acceptance, then promote responsible gun ownership and rid yourself of the Bubbas. Forced training, licensing, registration and policing would be a great step to ensure that the folks that have and use guns know what they're doing, know the laws, know how to use their weapons safely and don't present a danger to the public at large. I don't see much support for that approach, though, especially from the NRA.
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