The great gun debate [Archive] - JKowners.com : Jeep Wrangler JK Forum

: The great gun debate


venom
05-09-2008, 10:25 AM
Well I know this is a big can of worms, and anti-gun people are going to be anti-gun (usually right up until they or someone they love is victimized) but anyway, I figure we may as well start the debate thread so that all the other gun threads don't disintegrate into arguments.

Here's my outlook....

I don't care how polite you are or how well you can defend yourself and your loved ones, if Mr. Methhead pulls a weapon, you're choices become pretty limited.
Plus, with random shooting sprees becoming more commonplace, if some nutso starts spraying lead randomly around the mall, better to try to give him some back than just die in front of Footlocker.
My girlfriend used to be a little nervous when she found out I carry 24/7, but now when she watches the news and the latest rape/murder/stabbing/kidnapping/shooting spree/etc comes on, she looks at me and says "I'm so glad you carry baby".
I don't understand how anyone can realistically think that in today's society, good, law abiding people should be prevented from being armed if they choose to be.
The bad guys are gonna have guns, no matter if they're illegal or not.
You think someone who is willing to shoot someone in a crime, is going to be abide by an anti-gun law?
If you live ina place where criminals will follow a law that says they aren't allowed to have a gun, I wanna move there!
Admittedly, some people get a hold of guns that shouldn't have access to any weapons (mental illness etc) but they can do that same damage with a car or looking up how to make explosives on the internet, etc.
If a person wants to do harm, they WILL find a way.
Remember, one of the biggest tragedies this country has known on it's own soil (9-11) was accomplished without a single gun involved.
As far as 'Rambo wanna be's', there seems to be a lot more 'Scarface wanna-be's' last I looked.
To get a concealed permit here in TX requires a THOROUGH background check plus an 8 hour class, submitting to being fingerprinted and a shooting skill test.

A gun is a tool, how it's used is up to the hand it's in.
A hammer can be used to build a hospital or smash a skull.
A gun can be used to save a life or take a life.

Anti-gun folk, you may begin to pick this apart now.:shaking:

dougnpj
05-09-2008, 10:29 AM
Well I know this is a big can of worms, and anti-gun people are going to be anti-gun (usually right up until they or someone they love is victimized) but anyway, I figure we may as well start the debate thread so that all the other gun threads don't disintegrate into arguments.

Here's my outlook....

I don't care how polite you are or how well you can defend yourself and your loved ones, if Mr. Methhead pulls a weapon, you're choices become pretty limited.
Plus, with random shooting sprees becoming more commonplace, if some nutso starts spraying lead randomly around the mall, better to try to give him some back than just die in front of Footlocker.
My girlfriend used to be a little nervous when she found out I carry 24/7, but now when she watches the news and the latest rape/murder/stabbing/kidnapping/shooting spree/etc comes on, she looks at me and says "I'm so glad you carry baby".
I don't understand how anyone can realistically think that in today's society, good, law abiding people should be unarmed.
The bad guys are gonna have guns, no matter if they're illegal or not.
You think someone who is willing to shoot someone in a crime, is going to be abide by an anti-gun law?
If you live ina place where criminals will follow a law that says they aren't allowed to have a gun, I wanna move there!
Admittedly, some people get a hold of guns that shouldn't have access to any weapons (mental illness etc) but they can do that same damage with a car or looking up how to make explosives on the internet, etc.
If a person wants to do harm, they WILL find a way.
Remember, one of the biggest tragedies this country has known on it's own soil (9-11) was accomplished without a single gun involved.
As far as 'Rambo wanna be's', there seems to be a lot more 'Scarface wanna-be's' last I looked.
To get a concealed permit here in TX requires a THOROUGH background check plus an 8 hour class, submitting to being fingerprinted and a shooting skill test.

A gun is a tool, how it's used is up to the hand it's in.
A hammer can be used to build a hospital or smash a skull.
A gun can be used to save a life or take a life.

Anti-gun folk, you may begin to pick this apart now.:shaking:

X 1000
And thanks for putting this better than I could have.

Bigjerm
05-09-2008, 10:43 AM
Nicely put. I plan to purchase a hand gun soon. I have my 22 rifle but it is not a good close range to protect my home kind of weapon. I have been doing a lot of shopping and I am pretty sure on my decision and I will apply for a carry license. In GA it is a little easier; application, pay a fee, background and fingerprint. I WILL NOT carry the weapon though until I get very comfortable shooting it. As you said, it can be a tool if in the right hands, it can also be very dangerous in untrained hands.

Seems there is a lot more legislation lately expanding where a licensed concealed carry can take their gun

BigO
05-09-2008, 11:04 AM
Good job venom. One of my favorite things to read about is when a state passes a pro-gun law (like concealed carry) and then you hear the usuals step in (Brady Campaign for example) and start talking about how there's going to be blood in the streets over parking spaces, in the aisles of grocery stores, or wherever. All of these people with their newly gotten permits are going to start shooting at the drop of a hat. Then, of course, it never happens. I'm still waiting to hear about a concealed carry permit holder knocking over a 7-11.

My other favorite is the "no guns" sign stuck on the window of a store. Yea, the criminal intending to rob the place is going to move on down the street when he see's that. It only works with law-abiding people.

The bottom line with me is...and it may sound Greek to a lot of people in today's society...I am responsible for my own and my family's safety. Not the gubberment...not the police.

venom
05-09-2008, 11:22 AM
My other favorite is the "no guns" sign stuck on the window of a store. Yea, the criminal intending to rob the place is going to move on down the street when he see's that. It only works with law-abiding people.

Yeah, lets apply logic to that situation....
I own a business, all my money, time and energy is tied up there. All my days cash is in the till.
Do I want to specifically EXCLUDE the people from my business who have had detailed background checks that came out clean and have all their information VOLUNTARILY on file with law enforcement. You know, the known good guys. Let alone are capable of helping me out in the event of a criminal situation.
Do I want to only allow in the unknowns?
Hmmmm.
I'm gonna go with no on that one.......

Luckily here in TX, the sign has to be VERY exact to legally apply.
The verbage has to be exact, the letters a certain size, etc.
Otherwise it's merely a suggestion.

A friend was telling me he was on a hunting trip, I think it was some small town in Arizona. They went into the small town to grab lunch. The guy he was with still had his backup revolver around his waist, he says "let me run into the bank and grab some cash real quick". My buddy wigs out "You can't go into a bank with a gun on your hip!". The older guy laughs and invites him into the bank with him. Turns out EVERYONE in the bank had a holster strapped on. The guy made the point "Look around, is this a bank YOU would want to try to rob?"

nam6869usmc
05-09-2008, 11:23 AM
Read & Feel Good.....
http://www.streetpro.com/usp/stories.html

>I will bring Hell to anyone that threatens my Wife & Granddaughter, they have no idea what their Dealing with Semper Fi.



One I pulled out showing below:.
From: Michael White
This just in; dateline Washington, DC:

Two masked men armed with knives, duct tape, and a can of gasoline attacked three women in their home yesterday; a mother and her two adult daughters, one of whom is scheduled to testify in a trial. After a violent hand-to-hand fight in which all three women were injured, the mother got her handgun, and shot and wounded one of the assailants. He ran, but was later captured by the police. The other attacker escaped. The DA's office is now considering charges against the mother for possessing a gun, which is illegal in DC.

BigO
05-09-2008, 11:26 AM
Turns out EVERYONE in the bank had a holster strapped on. The guy made the point "Look around, is this a bank YOU would want to try to rob?"

But...but...but...that's what the police are for. :thefinger: :grinpimp:

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

Damn...I'll get up to 500 posts real quick with this topic. :D

BigO
05-09-2008, 11:37 AM
The DA's office is now considering charges against the mother for possessing a gun, which is illegal in DC.

If you leave out the highlighted text above, I'd guess that story was from Great Britain.

nam6869usmc
05-09-2008, 11:43 AM
If you leave out the highlighted text above, I'd guess that story was from Great Britain.

Ya BigO, I agree, I think that's why some hesitated to protect their self or family & a whole different outcome occurs...they get butchered.

gcg
05-09-2008, 12:22 PM
Oh, I'll just cut and paste my reply from the "Cool" thread since you've made it so convenient:

Well, it gets under my skin, too. Although I'm personally anti-gun, I have no problem with responsible adults owning guns and using them responsibly. The problem I see is that there are way, way too many gun owners that aren't responsible. And they're killing every day. The response of many gun owners is "we need more guns". To me, the problem is that we have too many guns and would be far better off with fewer guns. The more we promote guns in this society, the more killings we will have. Personally, I prefer to try and move forward to a more civilized society, not backwards to a less civilized society. We outgrew the horse and buggy, it's time we outgrow the need for "guns for protection", in my opinion.

The US has the highest number of gun related deaths of all western societies. Most studies have shown that having a gun in the house significantly increases the chance of violent death or suicide in the home. One can think they are protecting their family by having their guns. In some cases, that is undoubtly true. But, according to the scientific studies, the family is actually put at a significantly higher risk of violent death or suicide.

Everyone can make their own choice. However, if someone were selling me a new high tech electronic home safety feature guaranteed to fry a bad guy every time I would be interested. However if the fine print said that there was a 2 to 10 times higher likelihood that it would fry someone in your family, would you buy it?

As to your last point, I also hope this doesn't become a common theme on this forum. Personally, I'm disappointed that this section was added. This started as a Jeep forum. There are many gun forums elsewhere. Many Jeep owners are gun enthusiasts. Many aren't. Guns are a highly polarizing topic in this country. I'd prefer that we keep the Jeep forums Jeep related and let those that are gun enthusiasts go to the gun forums for that information.

venom
05-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Oh, I'll just cut and paste my reply from the "Cool" thread since you've made it so convenient:
As will I....

Please don't take this the wrong way, but
No one is making you read this section.
If you are anti-gun, that's fine, but if you make the conscious decision to click and read the gun based threads in the guns and ammo section of the board, then YOU have chosen to participate in this discussion area.
There is no law saying you must participate in every single section of the board.
Take personal responsibility for your own actions.
Don't like it, don't read or post in it.
Seems pretty simple to me.

I'll probably never goto Canada, so the Canada section of the board is of no use to me and their posts probably have no interest to me, but I'm not saying to remove it. Leave it for the Canadians and those with Canadian interests and I'll probably never read it.
(No offense to my Canuck friends, simply using it as an example)

Bigjerm
05-09-2008, 12:31 PM
I think we all agree if we could move from a world of guns for protection it would be great. But in order to move from that world you first have to stop school shootings, rapes, murders, theft and so on. The more gun laws made to protect us from... well ourselves, only affects the law abiding citizens, not your criminals. A criminal breaks the law, including gun laws. Why give them the upper hand knowing they are the only one with a gun around and everyone else is empty handed?

venom
05-09-2008, 12:32 PM
Perfectly stated Jerm!

gcg
05-09-2008, 12:36 PM
I think we all agree if we could move from a world of guns for protection it would be great. But in order to move from that world you first have to stop school shootings, rapes, murders, theft and so on. The more gun laws made to protect us from... well ourselves, only affects the law abiding citizens, not your criminals. A criminal breaks the law, including gun laws. Why give them the upper hand knowing they are the only one with a gun around and everyone else is empty handed?
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

BigO
05-09-2008, 12:46 PM
Personally, I prefer to try and move forward to a more civilized society, not backwards to a less civilized society. We outgrew the horse and buggy, it's time we outgrow the need for "guns for protection", in my opinion.

If the passengers on the 9/11 flights were carrying Louisville Sluggers, the terrorists may have been a little more civilized. I'm sure some of the passengers tried to reason with them in a civilized way, but it didn't work. Maybe it was the language barrier?

We didn't outgrow the horse and buggy, we, being the innovative people we are, found a more proficient way for getting from point A to point B. And it's improved upon all the time. With regard for protecting yourself from a criminal, there's no need to come up with a more proficient way. We already have it. Nothing to outgrow there.

But, according to the scientific studies, the family is actually put at a significantly higher risk of violent death or suicide.

Proper training reduces that risk. And that's an individual responsibilty. Just like the new high-tech home safety feature...I'd buy it in a minute...AND receive thorough training on its use for me and all of my family. Risks are everywhere. You'll never completely get rid of them. It's a balancing act. I do what I can to make sure they fall in my favor.

venom
05-09-2008, 12:47 PM
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

Better than if we took all the guns away from everyone except the criminals willing to break the anti-gun laws :thefinger:
The reality is, this is the world we live in.
There ARE alot of guns here.
Bad guys have a lot of guns.
Now you can choose to wish they didn't have them and hope they all go away.
Or you can deal with the situation.
Unless you can somehow remove every single gun in the country (even from the naughty liars who may tell you they don't have one, so they can use it for bad things) and only place them into righteous and just hands, you have to deal with the situation as it is.
Blindly hope nothing bad ever happens to you or your loved ones
OR
rest all of your trust that there will be a peace officer there IF something bad happens
OR
prepare yourself

Alternately you can try to build a time machine to fast forward to the Star Trek world when there is no violence, greed or need for money.
Oh wait, even in their Utopian Society, they still needed disruptor pistols and proton torpedos to deal with the beings who hadn't embraced that way of life.

BigO
05-09-2008, 12:48 PM
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

We also have the most fast food chains and the most fat people in the world. But wait, drugs like cocaine and heroine are illegal, yet we have the highest drug use rate in the world.

Wow...it's all so confusing. :D

nam6869usmc
05-09-2008, 02:36 PM
gcg, no one on here started these Gun Sections to offend you, absolutely not the prime intention at all. We all share a lot of common intrest, so a CB, Pet, Boat, Camper, GPS, Fishing, etc, etc Sections are very interesting. If it's a must you have to click on one of these Gun threads, you have to no you'll be upset....just don't Click:beer::beer:

Bigjerm
05-11-2008, 05:40 PM
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

how well would it work if the ONLY people who had guns were criminals who didn't care about "strict" gun laws?

gcg
05-11-2008, 07:12 PM
how well would it work if the ONLY people who had guns were criminals who didn't care about "strict" gun laws?
This is basically a no win situation. Guns are a highly emotional, highly polarizing topic in this country. I have my strong opinions and the gun enthusiasts have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others with our arguments.

Just to sum it up for me, I have no problem with responsible adults having guns if they use them responsibly. For those that fit in this category, enjoy your sport. The problem I continually see, though, is that there are way, way too many in this country that don't fit that description. About 30k people or so a year are killed by guns. This is a horrible and tragic number. Evryone should be totally outraged by it. The argument always goes that it's the bad guys that have them. I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions. That is tragic on both sides. As for the old argument that we have lots of guns and until every last bad guy gives his up, we all need more guns - that's really pretty naive. Other countries have solved or minimized the problem (with the most guns, we have the highest death rate - not a very good indicator that more guns reduce the problem). We can't solve it in a day. The question is, which direction do you want the country to move in? More guns, and probably more deaths or fewer. To me it's all about choosing a direction and then trying to make changes in that direction over time. Personally, I choose to try and move to a less violent society and I don't see that more guns accomplishes that, quite the contrary.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, just stating mine. Having said that, I don't see any point in saying anything more on the subject. I do respect the opinions of others, even when I disagree, if they're well thought out.

OnlyInMyJeep
05-11-2008, 07:18 PM
The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

The questions I have when someone quotes these statistics are: How many of those are criminals killing criminals? How many of those are criminals agianst the unprotected/prepared? If you take those two things into account the number of gun related deaths goes down a bunch. If more people were prepared to shoot and kill an armed criminal they would not be a victom. Yes the number of gun related deaths would go up but shortly the crime rate (and thus that number) would go down due to the implied control of the criminal population. Yess it sounds cruel but if more people carried guns and were to use them in situations such as home invasion, robbery, rape, and the like two things would happen. 1. The number of repeat offenders would drop. 2. The number of people willing to risk death to do a crime such as this would drop as well. This would result in a lower crime rate and lower number of deaths due to guns.

BTW the criminal on criminal is just their own method of population control and I say let them have it out except for the innocent bystanders that et hurt in this process.

OnlyInMyJeep
05-11-2008, 07:22 PM
This is basically a no win situation. Guns are a highly emotional, highly polarizing topic in this country. I have my strong opinions and the gun enthusiasts have theirs. Neither of us will convince the others with our arguments.

Just to sum it up for me, I have no problem with responsible adults having guns if they use them responsibly. For those that fit in this category, enjoy your sport. The problem I continually see, though, is that there are way, way too many in this country that don't fit that description. About 30k people or so a year are killed by guns. This is a horrible and tragic number. Evryone should be totally outraged by it. The argument always goes that it's the bad guys that have them. I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions. That is tragic on both sides. As for the old argument that we have lots of guns and until every last bad guy gives his up, we all need more guns - that's really pretty naive. Other countries have solved or minimized the problem (with the most guns, we have the highest death rate - not a very good indicator that more guns reduce the problem). We can't solve it in a day. The question is, which direction do you want the country to move in? More guns, and probably more deaths or fewer. To me it's all about choosing a direction and then trying to make changes in that direction over time. Personally, I choose to try and move to a less violent society and I don't see that more guns accomplishes that, quite the contrary.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind, just stating mine. Having said that, I don't see any point in saying anything more on the subject. I do respect the opinions of others, even when I disagree, if they're well thought out.

Yes other countries have solved the death by guns problems but also have higher crime rates and criminals running things rather than law abiding citizens. You also have dictatorships and such where the government has complete control and individuals have no freedom. Here we have guns in our hands, criminals who have to wonder if the next place they rob might get them killed, and are free to make our own choices including owning guns.

walker
05-12-2008, 01:02 AM
You want research?

CDC 2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

"In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."

CDC 2008 (review cause of death statistics 2005)
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/

Make want you want of statistics, but in the in 2005 you were more likely to die from a fall (6.4 per 100,000 people) than accidental discharge of firearms (0.3 per 100,000) or homicide by firearm (4.2 per 100,000). Just for comparison: Transport accidents (16.2), Accidental poisoning (drug overdose) (7.9), cardiovascular diseases (277.3), cancer (183.8), Diabetes (24.6), Influenza and pneumonia (20.3) and Alcoholic liver disease (4.2).

So if you really want to save me from myself, GCG, before you take my guns you better take my ladders, my jeep, my cheeseburgers, and my beer. While you are at it, you should write some laws to require me to get a flu and pneumonia shot and have annual cancer screening.

From my view as a medical professional, I hate to see the effects violence (guns, knives, clubs, fists) and one innocent death is too many. The reason some people think guns are such a big problem is that gun violence is interesting front page news while other preventable illnesses and injuries are not.

Oh, and I forgot to mention an estimated average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

Meanwhile an estimated 50,000 persons die annually in the United States as a result of violence-related injuries.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5703a1.htm

You might be safer on the street with a gun than with me in the hospital!
Now that is something to protest and write laws about! ;)

Walker

Bigjerm
05-12-2008, 05:57 AM
I definitely agree we will disagree

I'm sure they do but a lot of the good guys end up killing, too, because of accidents, poor or no training, suicide or emotions.

You are right on this one. That’s why in one of my post in the guns section I said I planned to get a permit but would only carry after I had spent some good time learning to shoot it. I was raised with guns and gun safety/respect so I am not worried about that. BUT what the hell good does a hand gun do me if I can shoot accurately?

gcg
05-12-2008, 10:20 AM
You want research?

CDC 2003
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5214a2.htm

"In summary, the Task Force found insufficient evidence to determine the effectiveness of any of the firearms laws reviewed for preventing violence."

CDC 2008 (review cause of death statistics 2005)
http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/

Make want you want of statistics, but in the in 2005 you were more likely to die from a fall (6.4 per 100,000 people) than accidental discharge of firearms (0.3 per 100,000) or homicide by firearm (4.2 per 100,000). Just for comparison: Transport accidents (16.2), Accidental poisoning (drug overdose) (7.9), cardiovascular diseases (277.3), cancer (183.8), Diabetes (24.6), Influenza and pneumonia (20.3) and Alcoholic liver disease (4.2).

So if you really want to save me from myself, GCG, before you take my guns you better take my ladders, my jeep, my cheeseburgers, and my beer. While you are at it, you should write some laws to require me to get a flu and pneumonia shot and have annual cancer screening.

From my view as a medical professional, I hate to see the effects violence (guns, knives, clubs, fists) and one innocent death is too many. The reason some people think guns are such a big problem is that gun violence is interesting front page news while other preventable illnesses and injuries are not.

Oh, and I forgot to mention an estimated average of 195,000 people in the USA died due to potentially preventable, in-hospital medical errors in each of the years 2000, 2001 and 2002.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

Meanwhile an estimated 50,000 persons die annually in the United States as a result of violence-related injuries.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5703a1.htm

You might be safer on the street with a gun than with me in the hospital!
Now that is something to protest and write laws about! ;)

Walker
Oh, OK. Gee, sorry. I just simply didn't understand that 30000 deaths was just fine with you as long as there are other ways to kill people out there. Silly me. Why the heck did we even care about 911 since it was only a measley 3000 people killed, what with all the hamburger deaths and everything. I mean terrorist deaths in this country must absolutely pale into insignificance when compared to bee stings. Right?

And I don't want to save you from yourself, walker. I want to save me and my family from you. To be perfectly blunt about it, it ain't the bad guy I fear in this country. I generally fear Bubba and his penis enlarging .45 strapped to his side, strutting around in camo. I'm 60 years old and have never been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one in my family has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one that I have ever worked with has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I went to school with has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I've known in my entire life has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. Not saying it can't happen tomorrow, but for 60 long years I simply haven't seen anyone that I know have a problem. So, to me, it isn't that big of a problem - maybe it is to you or maybe you just like your guns and the bad guy is a convenient argument.

On the other hand, here's what I have experienced with guns. In high school two students shot themselves to death with their father's guns. Then one of my daughter's classmates blew his head off with his father's shotgun. Then my wife's boss' father shot himself with a rifle. Then a guy down the street killed himself with a gun. Five needless deaths, no one saved in 60 years. Of course then there was the fun night camping when the responsible group of buzzed out 18 year olds decided to get up at midnight and start shooting their weapons all night long making those of us acting responsibly wonder if we were going to be shot. After an encore presentation the second night, we left out of fear. And of course, there are the endless piles of expended shot gun shells that littler the mountains in back of my house left by the responsible group. They haul their old wooden pallets, refrigerators, TV sets, etc. up there, shoot them to death and then leave them along with all the hardware laying on the ground. I do think that if attacked by a rogue TV, these guys would be handy to have around. Also, I no longer fear being attacked by a road sign as they have all been killed many times over by the responsible gun owners.

The facts are that the US has the largest gun ownership and the largest number of gun deaths of all western countries, as I've stated before. You can try and argue it anyway you want but those are the facts. If more guns in the hands of more people really made you safer, this should be one of the safest countries, not the one leading in gun deaths. You can say training will help, and maybe it will. But the numbers already include those that have chosen to train themselves.

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with responsible gun owners. But I personally think you are in the minority. If you really want to gain more acceptance, then promote responsible gun ownership and rid yourself of the Bubbas. Forced training, licensing, registration and policing would be a great step to ensure that the folks that have and use guns know what they're doing, know the laws, know how to use their weapons safely and don't present a danger to the public at large. I don't see much support for that approach, though, especially from the NRA.

venom
05-12-2008, 11:41 AM
I'm 60 years old and have never been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one in my family has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one that I have ever worked with has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I went to school with has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I've known in my entire life has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun.

And I honestly hope it stays that way!
If only that were true everywhere.
No home invasions, no shooting sprees, no robberies, no drive-bys.
Living in a place that must rival Disney for a lack of armed violence, it makes more sense why you have the viewpoint you do.

Unfortunately the rest of us have to deal with the dregs of society.
My first encounter was when I was about 18, walking down a street in Dayton Ohio and a little kid, couldnt have been much more than 10, comes walking up to my girlfriend and I with the rustiest, crustiest excuse for a revolver I've ever seen. It was so dirty and corroded I couldn't see into the cylinder to see if it was loaded. He must have found it the river or something, I seriously doubted it could function. He sticks it into my gut (that's about as high as he could reach) "gimme yo money fool". I was wearing a hoodie and had my hands in the front pocket so he pretty much had handed me the 'weapon'.
A quick snatch and twist and he had a very sore hand and I had a lump of rust. He took off running and I headed for the cop station and turned it over to them.
It was loaded with 2 shells, but they were rusted and I doubt they would have discharged and the gun did cycle but I had to pull a lot harder than a 10 year old could have.
Turns out he had actually robbed another person on the same street they day before (after he got out of school).

Too many guns may have caused that incident, but I can guarantee it was not an honest gun toting citizen that went and paid several hundred dollars for that gun that threw it in the river for the little bozo to find. Or one of your 'bubbas' that likes his guns way too much. It was some lowlife who probably stole it, did something bad with it, then disposed of it.
But you aren't afraid of those types.

It's not a perfect world and I'm not a paranoid idiot who thinks everyone is out to get me. I am a realist.
Crime and bad guys do exist.
Millions of guns exist, many in the hands of lazy, immoral people who would prefer to use one to take what you or I have worked hard to earn, rather than to put in the effort to get their own.
Most criminals are lazy bullies. They want a shortcut to get what they want, and don't want to work and earn it for themselves. Most will go for the easiest target. As long as they can safely assume there is almost no chance for the victim to be armed as well - easy pickins. If they think there's a good chance they don't have the total advantage, maybe they won't go for it. Just maybe they'll think 'that McJob may suck but at least I'm not gonna get shot by the next victim I try to rob.'


I have to ask though,and please don't think I'm just arguing, this debate has remained pretty civil and productive, lets keep it that way,but I have to ask...
Are you naive enough to think that the 5 people who killed themselves with guns only committed suicide because there was a gun around?
They wanted to die bad enough to shoot themselves, in the absence of a gun they wouldn't go drive of a bridge, OD on pills, etc etc? There are a million ways to die and these people who were determined enough to load and pull the trigger wouldn't have done the hairdryer in the bathtub trick or razor blade across the wrists? Or worse yet, pull the old suicide by police - where they go take a bunch of hostages or whatever and purposefully leave the police no alternative but to shoot them?

gcg
05-12-2008, 12:21 PM
And I honestly hope it stays that way!
If only that were true everywhere.
No home invasions, no shooting sprees, no robberies, no drive-bys.
Living in a place that must rival Disney for a lack of armed violence, it makes more sense why you have the viewpoint you do.

Unfortunately the rest of us have to deal with the dregs of society.
My first encounter was when I was about 18, walking down a street in Dayton Ohio and a little kid, couldnt have been much more than 10, comes walking up to my girlfriend and I with the rustiest, crustiest excuse for a revolver I've ever seen. It was so dirty and corroded I couldn't see into the cylinder to see if it was loaded. He must have found it the river or something, I seriously doubted it could function. He sticks it into my gut (that's about as high as he could reach) "gimme yo money fool". I was wearing a hoodie and had my hands in the front pocket so he pretty much had handed me the 'weapon'.
A quick snatch and twist and he had a very sore hand and I had a lump of rust. He took off running and I headed for the cop station and turned it over to them.
It was loaded with 2 shells, but they were rusted and I doubt they would have discharged and the gun did cycle but I had to pull a lot harder than a 10 year old could have.
Turns out he had actually robbed another person on the same street they day before (after he got out of school).

Too many guns may have caused that incident, but I can guarantee it was not an honest gun toting citizen that went and paid several hundred dollars for that gun that threw it in the river for the little bozo to find. Or one of your 'bubbas' that likes his guns way too much. It was some lowlife who probably stole it, did something bad with it, then disposed of it.
But you aren't afraid of those types.

It's not a perfect world and I'm not a paranoid idiot who thinks everyone is out to get me. I am a realist.
Crime and bad guys do exist.
Millions of guns exist, many in the hands of lazy, immoral people who would prefer to use one to take what you or I have worked hard to earn, rather than to put in the effort to get their own.
Most criminals are lazy bullies. They want a shortcut to get what they want, and don't want to work and earn it for themselves. Most will go for the easiest target. As long as they can safely assume there is almost no chance for the victim to be armed as well - easy pickins. If they think there's a good chance they don't have the total advantage, maybe they won't go for it. Just maybe they'll think 'that McJob may suck but at least I'm not gonna get shot by the next victim I try to rob.'


I have to ask though,and please don't think I'm just arguing, this debate has remained pretty civil and productive, lets keep it that way,but I have to ask...
Are you naive enough to think that the 5 people who killed themselves with guns only committed suicide because there was a gun around?
They wanted to die bad enough to shoot themselves, in the absence of a gun they wouldn't go drive of a bridge, OD on pills, etc etc? There are a million ways to die and these people who were determined enough to load and pull the trigger wouldn't have done the hairdryer in the bathtub trick or razor blade across the wrists? Or worse yet, pull the old suicide by police - where they go take a bunch of hostages or whatever and purposefully leave the police no alternative but to shoot them?
First of all, I don't live in Disney Land and never have. Maybe I've been lucky. But all I can go by is my real life experiences and the experiences of those that I have known throughout my life. I'm not saying that crime doesn't exist and I'm not saying that bad guys aren't out there. I'm not even saying don't have a gun. What I am saying is that the way guns are currently owned and used in this country that they are as much of the problem as they are a solution. You sound like a responsible guy and a responsible gun owner. No problem. If all, or most, gun owners were that way we probably wouldn't have the raging gun argumnent we do in this country. But they aren't. And now we have to deal with that situation as well as the bad guy situation.

I do understand your deterrent argument and I think it has some merit. I just think that the end result has created another problem of similar magnitude.

As to the suicide question, I don't know what they would have done if a gun wasn't readily available. I only know what they did.

Bigjerm
05-12-2008, 12:27 PM
Forced training, licensing, registration and policing would be a great step to ensure that the folks that have and use guns know what they're doing, know the laws, know how to use their weapons safely and don't present a danger to the public at large.

yeah I got to admit it is a little weird all GA requires is a fee, application, back ground check and finger print. No class, training or test...

nam6869usmc
05-12-2008, 01:26 PM
Neighbor Fatally Shoots Donut Store Robber

POSTED: 6:53 am CDT May 9, 2008
UPDATED: 7:55 am CDT May 9, 2008


FORT WORTH, Texas -- Police said a man who tried to rob a donut store was shot and killed by a man who lives near the store Friday morning.


The robber broke into the store in the 100 block of Roberts Cut Off Road in West Fort Worth and terrorized the woman who was working there, police said.

Police said the woman, Angel Randle, ran out the back door screaming for help.

The neighbor heard the pleas, grabbed his shotgun and then fatally shot the robber, police said.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video: Donut Store Robber Fatally Shot
Blog: Melissa Newton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


“This is the second time this month she’s been robbed,” witness Raymon Farrell said. “And, God bless her soul, she’s still alive.”

A River Oaks officer was passing by the scene and witnessed the shooting.

Investigators said they questioned the neighbor, but don’t expect to arrest him.

walker
05-12-2008, 01:39 PM
GCG, this is obviously a deep-seated emotional issue for you. From reading your posts your fear is fixated on a single tool (guns) that are utilized during stupid human behavior, an not the behavior itself.

You and I have much in common. I don't like the fact that people choose to kill themselves, I don't like vandalism or litter, and I don't like people who have a total disregard for the safety of others. Where we differ is that you firmly believe that guns actually cause people to behave poorly.

You seem to like analogies, so since you are on a jeep forum, I have one that involves jeeps for you. I don't like drunks in jeeps, they kill themselves and others. I don't like stupid people in jeeps that drive around at high speed through campgrounds with kids and families (mine in particular) nearby. I don't like to be threatened by people in jeeps after I kindly ask them to slow down. I don't like people in jeeps that leave their garbage in the back country, destroy fish stream beds, or drive through my hayfields to have fun in the mud. I have taken care of more than my share of people crippled or killed by motor vehicles, I have two friends severely disabled from jeep accidents, and I have had a few close calls myself.

I love jeeps, but I don't like the effects of accidents involving jeeps, and I really dislike stupid people. We already have "Forced training, licensing, registration and policing" of people in jeeps, but there are still stupid people. So do I think jeeps need stronger laws to regulate their use? No. I think the vast majority of us drive jeeps and use the back country responsibly. Yet I do not fear jeeps; and I do not think jeeps are the root of bad behavior.

So I too have had bad experiences with stupid people with jeeps (and guns), and I don't have a short easy solution to solve bad behavior or violence.

Jeeps don't kill people, people kill people. :D

Walker

OnlyInMyJeep
05-12-2008, 04:22 PM
I'm 60 years old and have never been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one in my family has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one that I have ever worked with has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I went to school with has ever been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. No one I've known in my entire life has been threatned by a bad guy with a gun. Not saying it can't happen tomorrow, but for 60 long years I simply haven't seen anyone that I know have a problem. So, to me, it isn't that big of a problem - maybe it is to you or maybe you just like your guns and the bad guy is a convenient argument.

I am only 38 and have known people threatened and even killed by those breaking the law with a gun. I have also known situations where people's lives were saved because they had a firearm and were willing to use it. I also have been in the situation where I had to carry and in fact have it at the ready to use it to keep myself safe. If that individual had not seen me and that I was armed they would have continued and I would have been the worse for it instead they ran.

On the other hand, here's what I have experienced with guns. In high school two students shot themselves to death with their father's guns. Then one of my daughter's classmates blew his head off with his father's shotgun. Then my wife's boss' father shot himself with a rifle. Then a guy down the street killed himself with a gun. Five needless deaths, no one saved in 60 years.

I have known at least as many people who comited suicide using a gun. I have known about twice as many who slit their wrists, took an OD of pills, or other methods of suicide including going 100mph and driving into the woods (they left a note). Maybe your life has been better than mine maybe you have had the blessing not to know as many people with mental problems as I have. Any way it goes in my opinion the benifits of an armed public far outweigh the benifits of banning firearms in my opinion.

John L
05-13-2008, 06:25 AM
This is from 2001, but I think it speaks volumes about gun control and how well it's working out for the Brits.

Austrailia is facing a similar problem as well.



Tourism in Great Britain is down because of the foot and mouth disease scare this spring.
Now comes a second blow. A June CBS News report labeled Great Britain "one of the most violent urban societies in the western world."
Dan Rather reported:
"This summer, thousands of Americans will travel to Britain expecting a civilized island free from crime and ugliness. But now, the U.K. has a crime problem worse than ours."
Crime Report
Dan's got it right. According to the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC), Britain's rate of assault, robbery, and burglary now exceed those in the United States. Murder and rape are edging up very near the American rates, too.
BBC News reported "a dramatic rise in violent crime from 1998 to the present." Relying on statistics from the British Office of Home Affairs, crime in England and Wales this year is at epidemic levels, 60% higher, per capita, than in the U.S.

Gun Law
A ban on all private ownership of handguns became law in November, 1997. Handgun offenses have risen each year since then. Overall, violent crime has spiked since that act of Parliament.
A word of caution. It would be simplistic and dangerous to place all of the blame for this crime wave on the 1997 handgun ban.
But it certainly has not "ended violent crime" as its supporters predicted. Illegal guns continue to flood the country. Young hoodlums and career criminals have no problem obtaining firepower for their misdeeds.
New Study Results
A study released this month (July, 2001) confirms the folly of Britain's 1997 ban on guns.
Researchers at Kings College in London found:
"The use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned."
Director of the project, David Bredin, told BBC News:
"It's crystal clear from the research that the existing gun laws do not lead to crime reduction and a safer place. Policymakers have targeted the legitimate sporting and farming communities with ever-tighter laws, but the research clearly demonstrates that it is illegal guns which are the real threat to public safety."Mr. Bredin said the rise in crime was largely due to successful smuggling of illegal guns into the country.

Prohibition
The study concluded that Britain's experiment with gun prohibition has followed the same path as other government attempts at prohibition. Ever since guns were banned, every criminal has seen the merit of having one. The ban has, in effect, given them a distinct advantage in firepower.
The Manchester Guardian newspaper reported on January 14 that their city is now labeled Gunchester. Police were quoted as saying that "guns had become almost a fashion accessory" among young criminals on the street. Some gangs are armed with fully automatic weapons. The British police -- generally unarmed -- say they can't risk confronting teenagers brandishing machine guns.

Self Defense
This gun ban exacerbates the new attitude in Britain about self-defense. Parliament repealed the long-standing British Common Law right justifying the use of deadly force to defend oneself and one's property against a home invasion. Now, a homeowner repelling a burglar is himself the aggressor. If he has a gun and uses it for protection, he is liable for assault -- and even murder -- charges himself. (See Friday's Commentary for the example of farmer Tony Martin who now languishes in a British jail for self defense against burglars.)

In contrast, the U.S. has among the world's lowest "hot" burglary rates -- defined as burglaries committed while people are in the building -- at 13%.? Compare that rate with gun-free Great Britain's rate, which is now up to 59%.
It's logical. An American study showed that the #1 explanation from would-be burglars not to enter an occupied building was:
"I might get shot."
Criminals may be strolling down the road to Hell, but they're not crazy enough to hurry the trip.

Sacrificing Rights
British social policy analyst, Michael S. Brown, O.D., sums up his government's gun-ban implications for future generations of Britons:
"It is no coincidence that crime typically goes up after a government enacts new gun restrictions. Several American researchers and criminologists have explored this effect. Whenever people give up their rights to self defense in return for a promise of government protection, the results have been negative. No amount of social engineering will change this basic consequence of human nature. Unfortunately, the downward progression of gun control only goes one way. British subjects will never regain the basic human right to armed self defense."
American policymakers can learn a lot from the mistakes of their British cousins.

nam6869usmc
05-13-2008, 07:13 AM
. Whenever people give up their rights to self defense in return for a promise of government protection, the results have been negative. No amount of social engineering will change this basic consequence of human nature. Unfortunately, the downward progression of gun control only goes one way. British subjects will never regain the basic human right to armed self defense."
American policymakers can learn a lot from the mistakes of their British cousins.

John L, Good Read....
Why do some of these countries(and some groups here in the US) always want to make it so easy for the Punk/Crazy to Rob you or take you & your family out, and with "Zero Fear" of you being "Armed". As far as the Gov or the local Police protecting me, if their right there when something happens fine. if not, they can come later & clean the mess up.
I just absolutely refuse to let anyone screw my family at anytime, anywhere.

gcg
05-13-2008, 09:39 AM
Here's an excerpt from a Bob Herbert column in the New York Times:

I had coffee the other day with Marian Wright Edelman, president of the Children’s Defense Fund, and she mentioned that since the murders of Robert Kennedy and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in 1968, well over a million Americans have been killed by firearms in the United States. That’s more than the combined U.S. combat deaths in all the wars in all of American history.

“We’re losing eight children and teenagers a day to gun violence,” she said. “As far as young people are concerned, we lose the equivalent of the massacre at Virginia Tech about every four days.”


Make you think at all?

Bigjerm
05-13-2008, 10:25 AM
Here's an excerpt from a Bob Herbert column in the New York Times:

I had coffee the other day with Marian Wright Edelman, president of the Children’s Defense Fund, and she mentioned that since the murders of Robert Kennedy and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. in 1968, well over a million Americans have been killed by firearms in the United States. That’s more than the combined U.S. combat deaths in all the wars in all of American history.

“We’re losing eight children and teenagers a day to gun violence,” she said. “As far as young people are concerned, we lose the equivalent of the massacre at Virginia Tech about every four days.”


Make you think at all?



Ok that doesn't go very well with this discussion...

That doesn't tell us if they were killed by cops, licensed CC gun owners, by criminals, or by kids being dumb with their parent’s gun that is inside the house. Not to mention it doesn’t really tell us who was killed, it could have been a teenager who was committing a crime that put some one else’s life at risk.

Now I gotta toss out this card, Hurricane Katrina. When it hit my brother and I left Atlanta and drove our families’ farm in Collins, Mississippi. The whole area had been hit hard, real hard. IT was so hot and humid the only way to sleep was with all the windows and doors open. At the same time theft was at a high with people looting, taking gas, food, generators and killing for it. There neighbor about 2 miles down the road killed a man who came in his house. The intruder broke in his little girls room, the guy heard him, got up and shot him with no warning. When they got a flashlight they saw he had a pistol that was loaded. IF we law abiding citizens couldn’t have a gun what would he have done? Guess what, no power, no phones, no gas and trees on the road; cops wouldn't have been there in 2 minutes... O and I got plenty of stories for New Orleans just like that too....

John L
05-13-2008, 10:39 AM
Ok that doesn't go very well with this discussion...

That doesn't tell us if they were killed by cops, licensed CC gun owners, by criminals, or by kids being dumb with their parent’s gun that is inside the house. Not to mention it doesn’t really tell us who was killed, it could have been a teenager who was committing a crime that put some one else’s life at risk.

Now I gotta toss out this card, Hurricane Katrina. When it hit my brother and I left Atlanta and drove our families’ farm in Collins, Mississippi. The whole area had been hit hard, real hard. IT was so hot and humid the only way to sleep was with all the windows and doors open. At the same time theft was at a high with people looting, taking gas, food, generators and killing for it. There neighbor about 2 miles down the road killed a man who came in his house. The intruder broke in his little girls room, the guy heard him, got up and shot him with no warning. When they got a flashlight they saw he had a pistol that was loaded. IF we law abiding citizens couldn’t have a gun what would he have done? Guess what, no power, no phones, no gas and trees on the road; cops wouldn't have been there in 2 minutes... O and I got plenty of stories for New Orleans just like that too....

What an unfortunate thing to happen.
Sounds like that happened before the mayor had all the LEGALLY OWNED firearms removed from the possession of the LEGAL OWNERS, an action which was in violation of the second amendment.
Oklahoma has since passed a law that forbids any action like that in times of disaster. We may not get hurricanes, but we get our fair share of tornadoes.
I gotta say, when I lose power, as I did back in December for eight days because of an ice storm, or when the weather gets nasty, I put on a gun, if I don't already have one on. I refuse to become a victim.

BigO
05-13-2008, 10:39 AM
You guys do realize that you're carrying on a conversation with someone who said...

And I don't want to save you from yourself, walker. I want to save me and my family from you. To be perfectly blunt about it, it ain't the bad guy I fear in this country. I generally fear Bubba and his penis enlarging .45 strapped to his side, strutting around in camo.

After reading that response several posts ago, my interest in this thread was lost. Hey gcg, do you hit your head off the underside of your bed when the alarm goes off in the morning?

gcg
05-13-2008, 11:29 AM
You guys do realize that you're carrying on a conversation with someone who said...



After reading that response several posts ago, my interest in this thread was lost. Hey gcg, do you hit your head off the underside of your bed when the alarm goes off in the morning?

No, I don't. If I did, though, I would hit it on the underside, not off the underside.

What I wonder about is why you live your life in such fear every day. I simply wouldn't live that way. If I felt I had to walk around with a loaded gun on my person 24/7 just to be safe, I'd move. You seem to live a life of fear, I choose not to.

As I said, in my life I'm not aware of any of my family or friends that have been threatened by a bad guy with a gun. Yes, I know it happens. Car accidents happen, sickness happens, industrial accidents happen. I try to take reasonable precautions. I choose to take precautions with respect to the things that I regard as being likely to impact my life. So far, bad guys haven't figured. If they do in your life, go get your gun and strap it on. Just don't kill any innocents with it and I don't have a problem.

Just because you have a different perspective than I do on what endangers you doesn't make yours or mine right or wrong. They're simply different based on our own life experiences. A different perspective doesn't make either of us stupid. I'm not going to insult your intelligence like you did mine, though it is tempting.

If you read my posts you'll see that I have consistently said that if you can be a responsible gun owner, I don't have a problem. My problem is with the staggering number of gun related deaths. How you can simply ignore them is beyond me. A statistic stating that in 40 years, gun deaths in this nation have exceeded the total number of combat casualties for the US in all wars in our history should make you sit up and think. Instead, it makes you trash the guy that posted it - very Republican of you.

In answer to the other post, I don't know the breakdown of the deaths. Although that is an important consideration, it is the fact that we keep killing so many people that concerns me. I can say with certainty that they weren't all bad guys. As I said before, if every man, woman and child could carry a gun and keep the number of accidental or stupid deaths to a small number, it would be fine with me. When the numbers get as high as they are, it isn't fine with me. Why it would be fine with anyone is really a mystery to me. It isn't gun control I'm after, it's reducing the deaths due to guns. Gun control is probably the first solution that comes to mind because it's "simple". Many of the posts have given good examples of where a gun has saved their life - I understand that and agree it's a valid argument. It is also a fact that many innocent folks are killed by the irresponsible use of guns. It is that tragedy that offends me and it should offend you, too. We should all be working to reduce that to a reasonable number.

Dustoff '68
05-13-2008, 02:34 PM
Have had a concealed weapons permit for over 30 years...one of the last few "rights" we have left in this nation, and I am of the opinion that one owes it to his family and himself to be prepared at all times...the days are gone where you could leave your doors open, with just a screen door gingerly "locked" to let in some fresh air...the anti gunner who thinks that the police are gonna' be at his home on time while his wife and daughters are being brutally raped and butchered, himself, should suffer the same fate...you failed in your responsibility to protect your family...that said, I always carry my S&W 640 in a Don Hume pocket holster in my front right hand pocket in warm weather...in cooler, must wear jacket weather, a Glock 38 GAP in a Mitch Rosen open holster...when wearing heavy outerwear (as when I am in Maine in the winter), I never leave home without my Colt M1911A1 in a Tanker holster...

BigO
05-13-2008, 02:43 PM
gcg...There are roughly 80 million legal (non-criminal) gun owners in this country. You keep quoting the number of deaths by guns, but you say nothing about how that number is broken down. The number of accidental deaths is right around 3% of the total death-by-guns number. The rest is due to crime and suicide...which is not a gun problem...it's a "between the ears" problem. I know you didn't want to hear "walker's" response to you with other "likely ways to die" statistics, but I believe it's necessary to look at those things. The fact that you are so emotional about this is strictly based on your personal experiences...which mold your "perspective"...and has nothing to do with what's really going on out there. Car accident deaths far outweigh gun accident deaths every year, and a car is a product that is regulated, registered, and requires training, insurance and a license to operate. Oh...and cars are not even "designed to kill people", yet tens of thousands of people every year are killed by the irresponsible use (non-mechanical failure) of cars. Is that considered acceptable? Yet an accidental gun death is not acceptable?

Regarding suicide, someone intent on taking their own life is going to find a way to do it...guns or no guns.

Without looking at the facts of what's really going on, this thread will continue to go in circles. The "I feel this..." or "I think that..." stuff can go on forever. There's no immediate solution. Look how well the "War on Drugs" is working.

In some of your posts, you like to use stereotypical phrases describing people who carry guns, so I thought I'd throw in a stereotype regarding liberals being prone to hysteria and sleeping under their beds at night. Maybe it was a poor attempt at humor (I should have mixed in a smilie I guess), but it wasn't to insult your intellegence.

And as far as carrying a gun because I walk around in fear all the time...or I'm a "Rambo wannabe"...I don't expect you to understand this, but I'm not walking around in fear. I'm exercising a right, even if it's an unpopular right. And I'm choosing to take a precaution, even if it's considered extreme by some people. But what others think is not my concern when it comes to what I want to do to put the odds in my favor.

As far as this topic goes, stick a fork in me...I'm done.

gcg
05-13-2008, 02:59 PM
As far as this topic goes, stick a fork in me...I'm done.
Me too. It will go nowhere and it won't change anyone's mind. We both look at the same statistics and draw very different conclusions.

If I offended you or anyone with some of my remarks, I apologize. As with yours, they were somewhat meant to be funny and somewhat represented my viewpoint. A few were childish and I should have refrained.

As far as being emotional about this, I'm not. I'm simply offended by the deaths and tired of reading about them every day.

I have learned a few things through the discussions and that's always good. Anyway, I'm done, too. Better to talk Jeeps.

nam6869usmc
05-13-2008, 04:49 PM
Have had a concealed weapons permit for over 30 years...one of the last few "rights" we have left in this nation, and I am of the opinion that one owes it to his family and himself to be prepared at all times...the days are gone where you could leave your doors open, with just a screen door gingerly "locked" to let in some fresh air...the anti gunner who thinks that the police are gonna' be at his home on time while his wife and daughters are being brutally raped and butchered, himself, should suffer the same fate...you failed in your responsibility to protect your family...that said, I always carry my S&W 640 in a Don Hume pocket holster in my front right hand pocket in warm weather...in cooler, must wear jacket weather, a Glock 38 GAP in a Mitch Rosen open holster...when wearing heavy outerwear (as when I am in Maine in the winter), I never leave home without my Colt M1911A1 in a Tanker holster...


What,..now you hit home "Dustoff"... I bet with the orginal black shoulder holster huh! . Out of the 20 months in the "Nam", I was on a TANK 15 months & that was our issued weapon,
WoW! been a while since I herd this said>((Colt M1911A1 in a Tanker Holster)) Flash Flash Flash
Have a great day VET..

Dustoff '68
05-13-2008, 05:18 PM
What,..now you hit home "Dustoff"... I bet with the orginal black shoulder holster huh! . Out of the 20 months in the "Nam", I was on a TANK 15 months & that was our issued weapon,
WoW! been a while since I herd this said>((Colt M1911A1 in a Tanker Holster)) Flash Flash Flash
Have a great day VET..


No...my original black one along with my issued Colt are in a safe...I sent the pair in a Sansui speaker that I bought way back then in the base PX...I use a El Paso Sadlery Tanker holster...well made holster and brings back memories...should be called a pilot holster...:laughing2::beer::beer:

nam6869usmc
05-13-2008, 05:33 PM
No...my original black one along with my issued Colt are in a safe...I sent the pair in a Sansui speaker that I bought way back then in the base PX...I use a El Paso Sadlery Tanker holster...well made holster and brings back memories...should be called a pilot holster...:laughing2::beer::beer:

The Ship it back in the Sansui Speaker,,old trick,:devil: but it worked,,, Pilots Holster, Naw!,,we just let you Fly Boys use our 1911's & Holster..:D
To all you Pilots that I couldn't wait to see when badly needed,,,:beer::beer::beer:

Dustoff '68
05-13-2008, 06:01 PM
The Ship it back in the Sansui Speaker,,old trick,:devil: but it worked,,, Pilots Holster, Naw!,,we just let you Fly Boys use our 1911's & Holster..:D
To all you Pilots that I couldn't wait to see when badly needed,,,:beer::beer::beer:


Cheers............:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer::b eer:

dougnpj
05-14-2008, 09:42 AM
I have been out of town for the last few days and missed all the fun. That being said I want to also say I don’t write very well so please see if you can figure out what I am trying to say.

I live in a new neighborhood in Arizona called surprise. What all would consider a nice polite place to live. About two years ago I was in my house and my son (who just turn 18) was washing his dirt bike off after riding that morning. Well when he was done he started it and put it in our garage. I was in the house when I heard my dog going nuts at the front door. I walked over and looked out the window and saw that the neighbor from across the street (that I found was from Compton CA) had my son pinned against his truck. So I walk out and say “what the hell is going on”? He (nieghbor) turns to me and starts yelling that he has friends coming over and we better not start any noisy bike or else. I tell him that the bikes are legal and it is four in the afternoon we are not breaking any laws but if he would just come over and talk to me I would be more that happy to not do this when he needs his sleep or what ever. He yells some more and turns and leaves.
About an hour later my 8-year-old daughter is riding her bike and up pulls 5 guys in a truck when they get out they tell my wife that she better keep the kid out of the street or they will run her over. I walk outside and tell my wife to grab her and get in the house. At this point they (yes all of them) start telling me that I don’t know who they are and that they will kill me if I get in the way. So I figure this is going nowhere fast so I call 911 and ask for the police to be sent out. While I am on the phone they start walking up my driveway and are telling me how they are going to kill my family. They say this over and over and even the 911 operator says she can hear them. As they approach the garage door I hit the opener to close the door. One of them run at the door and sticks his foot in the safety beam so the door goes up. At this point is when I lift my shirt and unsnap my holster. They stopped advancing. This goes on for about 10 minutes, them walking up to the door and then backing up. The 911 operator tells me to use whatever force I need to defend my family or myself. But they never crossed into my house. And after those 15 minutes they turn and go in their house. The operator tells me that the police are on the way and that since they left she would hang up. 90 minutes later the police show up. Talk to me and take my gun and then talk to them. When they come back they give me my gun back and tell me they cant do anything because the guys across the street say I went to their front door and threatened them with a gun and I was making the whole thing up.
Needless to say I feel if I were not armed I would have been a statistic. And this is why I don’t like when people tell me I shouldn’t own a gun. I don’t like people telling me that I cannot defend myself or my wife and kids. Again I live in what is considered a good neighborhood.

nam6869usmc
05-14-2008, 10:28 AM
[QUOTE=dougnpj;17827]I have been out of town for the last few days and missed all the fun. That being said I want to also say I don’t write very well so please see if you can figure out what I am trying to say.

I live in a new neighborhood in Arizona called surprise. What all would consider a nice polite place to live.
Whoever sold you that house lied and never told you about the A$$hole that lived across the street. There are no safe little towns no more, none.
A H#ll of a story you have there, & your a H#ll of a man to hold your composure for so long,:beer: most would have took his head off after seeing your Son pinned by him. I live in a quaint little neighborhood, last year 1:30 AM I'm in bed, the Wife runs in & says somebody's try to get in the basement door(she could hardly stand up from fear))) I'm so Pi$$ed that someone scared my wife I went straight to a
(10), up I come, lock & load the Glock 26 & Glock 19 then gave her the
G26 with Laser Sight on, turn all lights off and sneak to that door. I told her to lock the Door behind me & don't let anyone in unless the special word I gave her is repeated. The Storm Door was broken, I went all around the house & to the back alley.....All Gone. Then I called 911 & Police came.
According to today's society, I did everything wrong, but we all have different backgrounds, mentality, & levels of control.....All mine quality's that I'm going out & take it to someone. Don't come to my house in the middle of the night, not good.................................
Moral of the Story is, I don't like to be Woke up..:pissed::pissed::pissed:

Dustoff '68
05-14-2008, 10:51 AM
[QUOTE=dougnpj;17827]I have been out of town for the last few days and missed all the fun. That being said I want to also say I don’t write very well so please see if you can figure out what I am trying to say.

I live in a new neighborhood in Arizona called surprise.QUOTE]


I tell you what...I would put up a for sale sign ricky tick, call the local news and let them know what happened, write a nasty gram to the Chief of Police of that burgh pointing out the losers going at a snail's pace took 90' to respond to a 911 call...yes sir...my whole family would have been out that day, and I would be somewhere else...I'd call the bank that holds the morgage and tell them you are outta' their, and if they can't sell the house quick to satisfy the mortgage, oh phreaking well, 'cause I certainly wouldn't be paying it...call my daughter the lawyer and get ready to rock "surprise"

1bad07JK
05-14-2008, 11:56 AM
Nicely put venom. As an ex-police officer and current self-defense instructor, I often see people make the decision to protect themselves AFTER a violent encounter.
I find no sense in the mindset that police officers will protect everyone and that guns in civilian hands are not needed.
There is not a city (regardless of size) where there are enough officers to be everywhere and protect more than a small (very small) percentage of the population. Less alone should some civil unrest or riot occur. The police would be quickly overrun and the individual left to protect themself.
We need look no farther than New Orleans in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Society quickly became a matter of survival of the fittest (spelled A.R.M.E.D.). Even as the towns own Mayor authorized the disarming of law-abiding citizens, the average "gun grabber" exhaulted him. Never realizing the rapes and murders he would be directly responsible for.
Our Founding Fathers gave us the Second Amendment for our protection. Whether it be from an individual or our own government. They had just fought a war against a tyrannical empire and wanted to make sure it would never happen again.
Just remember everyone, The Second Amendment guarantees ALL the others!

dougnpj
05-14-2008, 12:02 PM
I should have said lived. I just moved last month to a new neighborhood and I have talked to the neighbors and feel a lot better.

I did write letters and got a reply from the sheriff’s office (it was the police that took so long) and they said call them next time. Here in AZ we have sheriff Joe and he is a hard nose good cop.

I didn’t lose my head at all during that. 6 of them trying to squeeze between my 2 cars and me on the other end with my .45 with hollow points. I figured all it would take is a couple of shots and the way would be blocked.

I carry a Ruger P-90 on me 24-7 and I go to the rage quite a lot so I believe in a .45 being a great equalizer.
My son also caries the same and I am looking for something that my wife will like. I also want to say all of my kids go to a gun safety class and have been shooting since 5 years old. I wont let them be victims. All guns are kept locked up when not on my side.

dougnpj
05-14-2008, 12:04 PM
Our Founding Fathers gave us the Second Amendment for our protection. Whether it be from an individual or our own government. They had just fought a war against a tyrannical empire and wanted to make sure it would never happen again.
Just remember everyone, The Second Amendment guarantees ALL the others!

X2 :D

nam6869usmc
05-14-2008, 12:08 PM
I should have said lived. I just moved last month to a new neighborhood and I have talked to the neighbors and feel a lot better.

I did write letters and got a reply from the sheriff’s office (it was the police that took so long) and they said call them next time. Here in AZ we have sheriff Joe and he is a hard nose good cop.

I didn’t lose my head at all during that. 6 of them trying to squeeze between my 2 cars and me on the other end with my .45 with hollow points. I figured all it would take is a couple of shots and the way would be blocked.

I carry a Ruger P-90 on me 24-7 and I go to the rage quite a lot so I believe in a .45 being a great equalizer.
My son also caries the same and I am looking for something that my wife will like. I also want to say all of my kids go to a gun safety class and have been shooting since 5 years old. I wont let them be victims. All guns are kept locked up when not on my side.

Glock 26, my wife shoots it well,, & glad to see you moved, that was only going to get real bad there anyway...

skibum
05-14-2008, 01:48 PM
I definitely agree we will disagree



You are right on this one. That’s why in one of my post in the guns section I said I planned to get a permit but would only carry after I had spent some good time learning to shoot it. I was raised with guns and gun safety/respect so I am not worried about that. BUT what the hell good does a hand gun do me if I can shoot accurately?

If you're looking for home protection, I find that a pump action 12 gauge is far more effective than a hand gun. First, the sound of it ****ing is so distinctive that most bad guys would run like hell before you ever fired a shot and second, accurate shooting is taken mostly out of the equation. Aim in the general direction of your intended target and let 'er rip.

BigO
05-14-2008, 01:54 PM
If you're looking for home protection, I find that a pump action 12 gauge is far more effective than a hand gun.

I agree with that. Here's what I keep handy...

Bigjerm
05-14-2008, 02:03 PM
damnnnnn that’s nice. Can you give some specs on it and your opinion of it?

I need a home defense weapon. I am moving into an apartment with the girlfriend next week. Although it is the "nice" side of town people still get their apartments broke into all the time. My girlfriend is small, our dog is 50 lbs but she is afraid of everyone because she was abused before we adopted her and I am gone a lot. My girl friend can shoot the Remington 22 rifle very well but has not shot anything else.

skibum
05-14-2008, 02:06 PM
damnnnnn that’s nice. Can you give some specs on it and your opinion of it?

I need a home defense weapon. I am moving into an apartment with the girlfriend next week. Although it is the "nice" side of town people still get their apartments broke into all the time. My girlfriend is small, our dog is 50 lbs but she is afraid of everyone because she was abused before we adopted her and I am gone a lot. My girl friend can shoot the Remington 22 rifle very well but has not shot anything else.

Get her a little 20 gauge pump. She might find the 12 a bit intimidating. BTW......nice shotgun BigO......a little more high tech than mine.

BigO
05-14-2008, 02:22 PM
damnnnnn that’s nice. Can you give some specs on it and your opinion of it?

It's a Remington 870 Express with "goodies". I added a SureFire light to the forearm. Turns night into day and will temporarily blind whoever's standing on the business end. I added an extension tube to hold up to 7 shells (I believe). A pistol grip with adjustable stock to collapse it in close quarters. And the shell holder located in the most convenient spot.

If you buy a shotgun and you're living in an apartment, I recommend buying bird shot ammo for it. Remember, you'll be living in a place where people are on the other side of the wall. Bird shot is good for close range self defense (under 30 feet) and won't overpenetrate like buck shot will.

Edit: Or get a 20 gauge as skibum mentioned.

Also, if the shotgun sits for a long time while it's fully loaded, the spring will weaken and the gun may jam on the last round or two. The spring won't be strong enough to push the shells out of the tube. I only keep 2 shells in the tube when I know I won't be using it.

Dustoff '68
05-14-2008, 03:23 PM
I agree with that. Here's what I keep handy...

and what I keep real handy...............


846

John L
05-14-2008, 06:33 PM
It's a Remington 870 Express with "goodies". I added a SureFire light to the forearm. Turns night into day and will temporarily blind whoever's standing on the business end. I added an extension tube to hold up to 7 shells (I believe). A pistol grip with adjustable stock to collapse it in close quarters. And the shell holder located in the most convenient spot.

If you buy a shotgun and you're living in an apartment, I recommend buying bird shot ammo for it. Remember, you'll be living in a place where people are on the other side of the wall. Bird shot is good for close range self defense (under 30 feet) and won't overpenetrate like buck shot will.
Edit: Or get a 20 gauge as skibum mentioned.

Also, if the shotgun sits for a long time while it's fully loaded, the spring will weaken and the gun may jam on the last round or two. The spring won't be strong enough to push the shells out of the tube. I only keep 2 shells in the tube when I know I won't be using it.

Excellent advice, I was going to mention the same thing as I read this.

Bigjerm
05-14-2008, 09:01 PM
yeah I first thought a shotgun was a bad idea because of the close range of other people. I thought about bird-shot but was not a 100% sure on it.

BigO
05-14-2008, 09:15 PM
and what I keep real handy...

That thing looks eeeeeville. It must be banned. :D

What's with the pretty gun pictures from you and Phil? I'm seeing flags, coins, pocket knives, car keys, wrist watches, even friggin' vegetables mingled amongst the weaponry. I threw mine down on the carpet and snapped a shot. Am I sacrilegious?

Dustoff '68
05-14-2008, 09:40 PM
That thing looks eeeeeville. It must be banned. :D

What's with the pretty gun pictures from you and Phil? I'm seeing flags, coins, pocket knives, car keys, wrist watches, even friggin' vegetables mingled amongst the weaponry. I threw mine down on the carpet and snapped a shot. Am I sacrilegious?


Just a special license, is all...it's my shorty...:)

My guns hold up real well in the fruit and veggie bins...

OnlyInMyJeep
05-15-2008, 09:17 AM
yeah I first thought a shotgun was a bad idea because of the close range of other people. I thought about bird-shot but was not a 100% sure on it.

#4 High brass round would be the ammo of choice in the situation you have. It's enough to severly wound or kill at close range yet looses power by the time it makes it through the wall.

BigO
05-15-2008, 12:54 PM
#4 High brass round would be the ammo of choice

(ahem...in my best Michael Keaton Mr. Mom voice...)

Number 3...number 4, whatever it takes.

:laughing:

OnlyInMyJeep
05-15-2008, 01:05 PM
(ahem...in my best Michael Keaton Mr. Mom voice...)

Number 3...number 4, whatever it takes.

:laughing:

Very funny I just don't want the dude getting low brass #8 bird shot and thinking it will stop a determined drugged out attacker. Then agian mine is loaded with 00 buck but I don't have neighbors to worry over and figure if you are in my house that load is going center frame with zero not hitting target.

BigO
05-15-2008, 01:09 PM
I just don't want the dude getting low brass #8 bird shot and thinking it will stop a determined drugged out attacker.

Yep...good point.

usmcdoc14
05-16-2008, 06:23 PM
sorry, been away shooting guns :laughing: seriously.



Well, it gets under my skin, too. Although I'm personally anti-gun, I have no problem with responsible adults owning guns and using them responsibly. The problem I see is that there are way, way too many gun owners that aren't responsible. And they're killing every day. The response of many gun owners is "we need more guns". To me, the problem is that we have too many guns and would be far better off with fewer guns. The more we promote guns in this society, the more killings we will have.

criminals are not "responsible adults"
and an armed society is a polite one.

We outgrew the horse and buggy, it's time we outgrow the need for "guns for protection", in my opinion.

so what would you recommend? a stern voice? maybe a hug?



The US has the highest number of gun related deaths of all western societies. Most studies have shown that having a gun in the house significantly increases the chance of violent death or suicide in the home. One can think they are protecting their family by having their guns. In some cases, that is undoubtly true. But, according to the scientific studies, the family is actually put at a significantly higher risk of violent death or suicide.

my guns have not randomly attacked anyone in my household, thats why I lock them up. Guns in the safe can not randomly shoot people.
I also spank them "Bad guns, Bad"



Everyone can make their own choice. However, if someone were selling me a new high tech electronic home safety feature guaranteed to fry a bad guy every time I would be interested. However if the fine print said that there was a 2 to 10 times higher likelihood that it would fry someone in your family, would you buy it?

you drive a Jeep do you not? Funny how in the fine print, in the media, on the friggen sun visor all say you will die a nasty roll-over death.



As to your last point, I also hope this doesn't become a common theme on this forum. Personally, I'm disappointed that this section was added. This started as a Jeep forum. There are many gun forums elsewhere. Many Jeep owners are gun enthusiasts. Many aren't. Guns are a highly polarizing topic in this country. I'd prefer that we keep the Jeep forums Jeep related and let those that are gun enthusiasts go to the gun forums for that information.

most jeep owners are outdoorsmen, most outdoorsmen = hunters, hunters own guns.
(mind you that does not mean this is just a "hunting guns" forum nor any Zumbo like comparison)



The US has one of the highest rates of gun ownership of all western societies and the highest rate of gun deaths. How well do you think it's working?

its working pretty well, it work better with more people with guns and hopefully the balls enough to use them.

Oh, OK. Gee, sorry. I just simply didn't understand that 30000 deaths was just fine with you as long as there are other ways to kill people out there. Silly me. Why the heck did we even care about 911 since it was only a measley 3000 people killed, what with all the hamburger deaths and everything. I mean terrorist deaths in this country must absolutely pale into insignificance when compared to bee stings. Right?

wow :laughing: you actually typed that.

Funny how pro-gun people use logic and anti-gun use some asinine justification of emotion. Nice toss of 9/11 in there, you should add some dead kitten comments as well.


And I don't want to save you from yourself, walker. I want to save me and my family from you. To be perfectly blunt about it, it ain't the bad guy I fear in this country. I generally fear Bubba and his penis enlarging .45 strapped to his side, strutting around in camo.
Penis? If you think a gun = penis then you have some other issues going on.
Would me owning guns make me a "closet homosexual" seeing as it is the equivalent to holding a larger penis in my hand?
If a gun make me think my penis is bigger then should we also ban ****-rings and other actual penile enlargement devices and chemicals?

So then why do guns with 3" barrels sell so much? Glocks have only 4"-5" and everybody owns one. Would not everyone only buy guns with a 8" or longer barrel?

Sorry, the whole "gun=penis" this I find hilarious. Even the king of ******** = penis says its dumb.
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.” - Dr. Sigmund Freud


On the other hand, here's what I have experienced with guns. In high school two students shot themselves to death with their father's guns. Then one of my daughter's classmates blew his head off with his father's shotgun. Then my wife's boss' father shot himself with a rifle. Then a guy down the street killed himself with a gun. Five needless deaths, no one saved in 60 years.

needless? hardly.
But thats another topic.

Of course then there was the fun night camping when the responsible group of buzzed out 18 year olds decided to get up at midnight and start shooting their weapons all night long making those of us acting responsibly wonder if we were going to be shot.

sorry, did you say something earlier about never being threatened with a gun?


The facts are that the US has the largest gun ownership and the largest number of gun deaths of all western countries, as I've stated before. You can try and argue it anyway you want but those are the facts. If more guns in the hands of more people really made you safer, this should be one of the safest countries, not the one leading in gun deaths. You can say training will help, and maybe it will. But the numbers already include those that have chosen to train themselves.

do you see me arguing it? Perhaps you would like to no longer have any of the other freedoms this country has to offer.


As I've said before, I don't have a problem with responsible gun owners. But I personally think you are in the minority. If you really want to gain more acceptance, then promote responsible gun ownership and rid yourself of the Bubbas.

we already have, you are a little behind the power curve. google search "Zumbo". Bubbas are being weeded out.

Forced training, licensing, registration and policing would be a great step to ensure that the folks that have and use guns know what they're doing, know the laws, know how to use their weapons safely and don't present a danger to the public at large. I don't see much support for that approach, though, especially from the NRA.

"forced" ? I don't see you with forced anything on items that can kill a human.
and who will force this? Funny how every state I have been in has a requirement for training FOR CCW as it is. :shaking:
oh, you mean "ALL" guns :shaking:

Here's an excerpt from a Bob Herbert

Does that dude write ANYTHING that is not anti-gun? so was that the first google hit you found or what?


What I wonder about is why you live your life in such fear every day. I simply wouldn't live that way. If I felt I had to walk around with a loaded gun on my person 24/7 just to be safe, I'd move. You seem to live a life of fear, I choose not to.
No, you choose a life of ignorance and the blanket of bliss it gives. I can not live in a candy land as yourself.
And some of us do not have a choice as to where to live.

And even so, some of us do not become a wuss and run away from "the bad part of town". Ya, lets give up, let the criminals do what they want....


as long as its not where I live :laughing:


As I said, in my life I'm not aware of any of my family or friends that have been threatened by a bad guy with a gun. Yes, I know it happens. Car accidents happen, sickness happens, industrial accidents happen. I try to take reasonable precautions. I choose to take precautions with respect to the things that I regard as being likely to impact my life. So far, bad guys haven't figured. If they do in your life, go get your gun and strap it on. Just don't kill any innocents with it and I don't have a problem.

I put on my seatbelt.
I put on my XD .45

I see no diffrence.



If you read my posts you'll see that I have consistently said that if you can be a responsible gun owner, I don't have a problem. My problem is with the staggering number of gun related deaths. How you can simply ignore them is beyond me. A statistic stating that in 40 years, gun deaths in this nation have exceeded the total number of combat casualties for the US in all wars in our history should make you sit up and think. Instead, it makes you trash the guy that posted it - very Republican of you.


how many of those deaths were cause by legal gun owners?
ahhh emotional rantings - very Democrat of you.

CAPE_COD_JK
05-17-2008, 08:07 AM
I believe that law abiding citizens should have the right to protect themselves, their homes/property/business by purchasing firearms. If all the anti gun members in here are in favor of banning all firearms just take a look at Australia, England, Ireland to name a few and see how well it's working for them! Look at the crime rate statistics since the firearms ban. The criminals still have illegal firearms and the law abiding citizens are helpless to assault, robbery, home invasion, rape etc... Try calling the police when someone has a gun to your head or one of your loved ones at gunpoint. Try calling the police when someone is already in your home and you cant reach the phone or they cut the phone line before entering your house. What will you do? Hide in hopes that they dont find you? Bring a knife to a gun fight? Try to talk them into not raping or murdering you and your family? These types of people who are willing to do all of this are not coming into your home or business to say hello and will do everything to avoid witnesses or jail time. All of my guns are locked away and are safe from my children. I have a small lock box in our room with a 4 button code. If needed I can get to that in 5 seconds to unlock it. They will get one warning to either drop their weapon or leave the house. If not well....they were warned.

Dustoff '68
05-17-2008, 08:32 AM
A big hearty BRAVO ZULU to supporters and defenders of the 2nd.........

priell3
05-28-2008, 12:04 PM
I learned how to shoot and safe gun handling when I was about 5 years old. I taught my son the same at that age. My grandfather, mother, father, brother, and son have over 200 years of combined experience legally owning and using firearms. My firearms are properly stored and transported.

I just picked up license to carry today. I don't plan on being a "Dirty Harry".
I do plan on continuing to be a law abiding citizen and to continue to exercise my right to keep and bear arms.

I read this once: "The abuse of an object should not prohibit its use". If we were to prevent law abiding individuals from using objects that were misused, I don't think any of us would be driving our Jeeps. After all, aren't vehicles used by criminals and drunk drivers? Furthermore, driving is a privilege granted by the state, not a Constitutional Right.

Dustoff '68
06-04-2008, 01:46 PM
Zumbo the town in Mozambique or Zumbo the hunter?:laughing:

NightStalker
06-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Own as many as you can afford, and learn to group your rounds...


End debate :bounce:

Roklimo
06-08-2008, 11:03 AM
The DA's office is now considering charges against the mother for possessing a gun, which is illegal in DC.

Someone should show at the DA's house with guns, gas, and duct tape...:pissed:

Dustoff '68
06-08-2008, 11:38 AM
Someone should show at the DA's house with guns, gas, and duct tape...:pissed:


There are two kinds of people in this world...those who have guns, and those who wish they had them when the duct tape, pepper spray, and saturday night specials show up at their door......:pissed:

gt3073b
06-08-2008, 07:07 PM
As I've said before, I don't have a problem with responsible gun owners. But I personally think you are in the minority.

It is easy to think that "None of my friends have guns" or "I don't know anyone who owns a gun". The reality is that very few gun owners advertise their gun ownership. For every car with an NRA sticker, there are 10 that give no clue that they are packing.

My boss and I both found out that the other one shoots only after we had worked together for a couple years. I would have never guessed and neither did he. He was very surprised to find out that my wife shoots too.

Buying a gun and learning to use it properly AFTER you become a victim is like buying condom after getting pregnant.

Bryan.

Dustoff '68
06-09-2008, 04:19 AM
Very wise man, that gt is.....

nam6869usmc
06-09-2008, 09:08 AM
Buying a gun and learning to use it properly AFTER you become a victim is like buying condom after getting pregnant.

Bryan.

D@m, back in 1970 now I know I did some "backwards" >>in the back seat of my 65 Mustang at the drive-in.

Dustoff '68
06-09-2008, 12:18 PM
D@m, back in 1970 now I know I did some "backwards" >>in the back seat of my 65 Mustang at the drive-in.


...anddddddd....you were the gentleman, and married her, I hope...:innocent::stirthepot::question:

nam6869usmc
06-09-2008, 03:50 PM
...anddddddd....you were the gentleman, and married her, I hope...:innocent::stirthepot::question:

Oh ya,..Marine Corps(SGT MGR) made me get home ASAP 1970 from Camp Lejeune special leave...my Son will be 38 in Aug....:D 38 years of marriage.

Dustoff '68
06-09-2008, 06:05 PM
They don't make 'em like us anymore...honor, duty, country, family...in essence, the do the right thing ethic is long gone...what a fawking shame...;):beer::beer:

nam6869usmc
06-10-2008, 04:33 AM
They don't make 'em like us anymore...honor, duty, country, family...in essence, the do the right thing ethic is long gone...what a fawking shame...;):beer::beer:

It's been gone,..most have to visit house's on each street corner to visit all their Kid's,, they actually loose track who's is who. It's a D@m Shame for those precious children to be in that horrible(Mommy & Who ever the Daddy is) life style.:pissed:

Dustoff '68
06-10-2008, 04:58 AM
It's been gone,..most have to visit house's on each street corner to visit all their Kid's,, they actually loose track who's is who. It's a D@m Shame for those precious children to be in that horrible(Mommy & Who ever the Daddy is) life style.:pissed:


Ain't that the truth...gives a whole new meaning to who's your daddy??

DAPS rule!
06-14-2008, 05:11 PM
They don't make 'em like us anymore...honor, duty, country, family...in essence, the do the right thing ethic is long gone...what a fawking shame...;):beer::beer:

They still make em dustoff. And we still drag are families down to mother rucker.

Dustoff '68
06-14-2008, 05:45 PM
They still make em dustoff. And we still drag are families down to mother rucker.

Welcome brother ...who are you and what do you do?...Mother Rucker...was my home after Mother Wolters....welcome soldier:beer::beer::beer:

DAPS rule!
06-17-2008, 08:04 PM
Welcome brother ...who are you and what do you do?...Mother Rucker...was my home after Mother Wolters....welcome soldier:beer::beer::beer:

Wolters wow! you're dating yourself brother. I used to be a Blackhawk crewchief now I'm a 60 pilot just finishing up the course. I'm REALLY looking forward to leaving here.

Dustoff '68
06-18-2008, 06:04 AM
Wolters wow! you're dating yourself brother. I used to be a Blackhawk crewchief now I'm a 60 pilot just finishing up the course. I'm REALLY looking forward to leaving here.

Good for you...I knew the feeling...but one day, when you look back, you will find some of the best times in your life were when you were a WOC...all the bad stuff of war, in time, will be just a blur...you'll just remember the trials and tribulations of Mother Rucker...that will always put a smile on your face. Do us proud....:beer::beer::beer:

dougnpj
10-06-2008, 04:15 PM
This topic is relative to the upcoming election.

Dustoff '68
10-06-2008, 04:57 PM
What's that...Mother Rucker or the 2nd Amendment?;):beer::beer::beer:

TEEJ
10-06-2008, 05:03 PM
One of the themes I find in this issue, and many other polarizing issues, is the misuse of statistics.

If two things are correlated, it does not mean that one caused the other.

For example:

Homes with guns were more likely to have gun violence in them than homes without guns in them.

Homes containing vases were more likely to have vases get broken than house without vases.

These statements are equally meaningful.


Other examples:

Statement - The USA has the highest percentage of gun owners, and the highest percentage of gun crimes of any other country.

Potential Factor to Consider - The actual LOCATIONS of the highest percentage of gun ownership, and the actual LOCATIONS of the highest percentage of gun crimes, do NOT overlap.

Extreme Example -

Lets say there are only two states in the USA to simplify things; New England, and New Mexico....and each has 1/2 the total USA population.

In New Mexico, every one owns a gun, in New England, no one owns a gun.

In New Mexico, there is very little gun crime.

In New England, there is a tremendous amount of gun crime.

Statistically, the USA will have a very high proportion of gun owners, and a very high gun crime rate...

...but, obviously, that doesn't mean that one causes the other, as the statistics were blended together for the country as a whole.

This is akin to street crime and gang violence, where the most common cause of death is being shot by a rival, etc.

NO ONE "owns a gun" in these areas....all the guns are illegal....and, the crime rate is astronomical.

etc.

:D

dougnpj
10-09-2008, 03:22 PM
Well I just got a real good job offer in cali….:bounce: But does that mean I have to give up all the guns that hold more than 10 rounds?:bawling: I know my AK will have to find a new home. Such a shame that I can’t own what I want in that state. I mean when I take my guns out of my safe and get rid of them the world will be safer ….right. :shaking:

John L
10-09-2008, 04:23 PM
Well I just got a real good job offer in cali….:bounce: But does that mean I have to give up all the guns that hold more than 10 rounds?:bawling: I know my AK will have to find a new home. Such a shame that I can’t own what I want in that state. I mean when I take my guns out of my safe and get rid of them the world will be safer ….right. :shaking:

Maybe Arnold will make an exception in your case. That'll suck if you have to sell them. Hey, I'll watch them for you:D

Randyzzz
10-10-2008, 12:10 AM
Used to live in the "People's Republic of California". The gun laws suck, the emission laws suck.... Beautiful land and climate but I couldn't wait to get out.

As far as guns go, I believe you have a certain number of days to register your handguns. Assault rifles are a no-no unless you were a resident and owned/registered them prior to 1998 (Unsure of the year). I believe handgun clip capacity is irrelevant, as long as you already own them. I was still buying hi-caps at gun shows up to 2000 when I moved, but this might have changed.

It is virtually impossible in Cali to get a CCW permit. Funny- I have lived in both Utah and now Oregon- both states are "Shall Issue" states. And both have far less gun crime per person than Cali. Go figure!

johnwaynejeep
11-11-2008, 01:03 AM
I haven't read this whole post so I apologize if this is a repeat.

Here's my opinion on gun ownership: It's our right...period. It's a right granted to us by our forfathers who considered a gun to be a tool for hunting food and protecting themselves and their families.

the only people that are affecetd by gun ownership laws are law abiding citizens. Eliminating guns will not take the guns out of the hands of criminals, on the contrary, it will put law abiding citizens more at risk because criminals will have "carte blanche" in many situations.

A perfect example is drugs. The US has been trying to eliminate drug use in America for over 100 years in some instances. the government made drug use and in most cases posession illegal. This did not eliminate drugs from the streets, it only made criminals out of people who posessed drugs that were previously legal. Drugs are still widely available for purchase in every major city in the country. Eliminating guns completely will have a similar effect. Guns will be available in every major metropolitan area. the only thing that banning guns will do is make criminals out of people trying to protect their families and property.

you see examples of this all the time. Every time a person commits a crime with a gun, most people scream for more gun control. Very few people ask the question how did this person get the gun? A majority of the time the gun is acquired illegally. there was a case recently where a man killed a child in AZ on Haloween night while trick or treating. The man blindly unloaded an AK47 through his door because he thought he was being robbed. This man had a history of mental instability including paranoia. It was illegal for this man to posess a firearm of any kind and yet he managed to get one. Someone else commited a criminal act by selling this man a gun, allowing him access to a gun or by not completing the federal background checks required by law.

the answer is not more gun control. the answer is enforcing the laws we currently have in place and holding people responsible for their actions.

f5driver
11-11-2008, 09:24 PM
A gun in your hand is better than a cop on the phone.

walker
11-12-2008, 11:56 AM
The next 4 years are going to be interesting, hopefully the District of Columbia v. Heller case will help keep the politicians toying with unnecessary bans and further restrictions. We need to keep our heads on a swivel and ears to the ground!

Dustoff '68
11-12-2008, 01:24 PM
I'm not in the least concerned about this idiot trying to fawk with the 2nd Amendment...it's the 1st Amendment I see this fawktard messing with...mark my words, this jagoff is going to push for a revival of that Fairness Doctrine crap...silver lining is that in 4 years, we'll just put the country back together again...the RIGHT way, this time.;)

venom
11-12-2008, 01:25 PM
went to the local sporting goods superstore last night to pick up some new boots and figured I'd stock up on ammo while I was there
the ammo shelves were picked clean of all the cheaper .223, .308 and 7.62 and they were sold out of all AR variants.
Sounds like people are a bit concerned about whats in store for our right to bear arms.....

Dustoff '68
11-13-2008, 10:40 AM
Plenty of 45 GAP ammo in my hood...;)

SDMF
11-13-2008, 10:46 AM
Sounds like people are a bit concerned about whats in store for our right to bear arms.....

I was reading an article somewhere saying that democrats are great for the gun industry because every time one of them is elected people freak out and go buy more guns and ammo.

venom
11-13-2008, 10:49 AM
eh it was a good excuse for me to place an order for 1000 rounds of .223 :thefinger:

SDMF
11-13-2008, 10:52 AM
eh it was a good excuse for me to place an order for 1000 rounds of .223 :thefinger:

Haha, my family back in Illinois helped clean out the gun store in town of most to their ammo too. Not that they really needed any more, haha. The last time I was home my uncle had at least 50k rounds of .308 in the basement.