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: Tauras Judge


JKDoc
11-17-2009, 02:58 PM
Had the opportunity to shoot the Tauras "the Judge" 410 pistol yesterday. This will be my next purchase. I can not think of a better home defense pistol/gun. I had read tons of reviews pro and con about the Judge but after shooting it, I can't figure what the argument is against it.

I loaded it with 2 #6 shotshells, 2 000 buck (.38 caliber), and one slug. I shot at a 15 inch square box set 12 feet away. Put the laser dot on the box and fired two shots. There was a hole about every inch across the box. The #6 shot may not be lethal but two of these to the face of an intruder would really mess up his day/life. Followed this with the 000 buck. There are three balls in each shell. Two shots, 6 holes in the center of the box in about a 10 inch radius. So two pops and 6 38 sized holes. The slug was just overkill.

Recoil was easily controlled. Seemed to be less than my S&W 38 special. The laser makes aiming a no brainer. My son agreed with my assessment. He plans to purchase on as well.

We proceeded to shoot through our ammunition. We had one missfire. I tried a rapid fire sequence of 5 shots and the 4th failed to fire. Not sure if it was misaligned or if it was due to user error (most likely).

I think this pistol loaded with 2 #4 shotshells and 3 000 buck shotshells would provide all the security I need in my home, motorhome, or tent. I'm not getting rid of the 38, but you actually need to be able to shoot accurately to be effective with that pistol. You only need to be close with the Judge.

usmcdoc14
11-17-2009, 06:03 PM
Not to pis in your breakfast cereal of choice but...well lets start :laughing:Had the opportunity to shoot the Tauras "the Judge" 410 pistol yesterday. This will be my next purchase. I can not think of a better home defense pistol/gun. I can. I can think of quite a few actually. We will cover that in a bit. I had read tons of reviews pro and con about the Judge but after shooting it, I can't figure what the argument is against it.
Its a gimmic. That is what its biggest problem is. It is a neat idea and works well but it sorta got sucked into the wrong marketing. Home defense? No. Backpacking/hiking/farm gun? VERY MUCH YES. more on this later
I loaded it with 2 #6 shotshells, 2 000 buck (.38 caliber), and one slug. I shot at a 15 inch square box set 12 feet away. Put the laser dot on the box and fired two shots. problem #1. The frikken lazaaar beam.:laughing:
Lasers are a crutch..sorry VISIBLE lasers are a crutch and promote VERY bad shooting habits. They can also be deadly in a home defense situation.
First they tell who you are shooting EXACTLY where you are shooting them. Then they tell them how nervous you are. These things combined are NOT good

Next is you rely on the laser for sighting. So this promotes bad sight picture because most if not all people will look at the laser and not the actual sights. And you "think" the dot is where the bullet is going but most often not. Lasers have horrible parallax error. This is because they are mounted at odd angles to the bore. So if you sighted your laser in at 10 yards you are off at 5 and WAY the **** off at 20.
But lets say you are good to go, laser at 10, home intruder at 10, pull up gun, press button, no red dot.

Huh? press again, none. Move your head away from sight picture to "find" the dot and.....of ya..your are shot because of that delay. Think I am joking? Ask almost every SPECWAR operator that I covered their visible laser with duct tape as our last room clearing course :laughing:

Sorry, me and lasers have a an issue
There was a hole about every inch across the box. The #6 shot may not be lethal but two of these to the face of an intruder would really mess up his day/life.WHAT???!!??? :eek: you do NOT FRIGGEN SHOOT TO WOUND ! what the hell kinda fawked logic is that?
:shaking: use a real round for a real target. Followed this with the 000 buck. There are three balls in each shell. Two shots, 6 holes in the center of the box in about a 10 inch radius. So two pops and 6 38 sized holes. The slug was just overkill.
The buck shot is underpowered and the slug is pretty worthless in that gun. run the 45lc and DO THE JOB
Recoil was easily controlled. Seemed to be less than my S&W 38 special. umm that is because its weaker AND heavier :laughing:
The laser makes aiming a no brainer. Thank you for proving my point My son agreed with my assessment. He plans to purchase on as well.

We proceeded to shoot through our ammunition. We had one missfire. I tried a rapid fire sequence of 5 shots and the 4th failed to fire. Not sure if it was misaligned or if it was due to user error (most likely).

I think this pistol loaded with 2 #4 shotshells and 3 000 buck shotshells would provide all the security I need in my home, motorhome, or tent. I'm not getting rid of the 38, but you actually need to be able to shoot accurately to be effective with that pistol. You only need to be close with the Judge.
Your load up just proved that you want to end up dead is what it is. lets see
wound, wound,wound, wound, wound. You have the ability to run 45lc and END the situation but choose to instead risk your own death.
Your call.

You only need to get close.
The most retarded statement regarding shot gun type weapons ever. It is also the statement I hear often, right after "I rack it and that noise will make them shat" :laughing:
You need to AIM every weapon and aim it well. It will NOT clear half a room.
What is the spread of 000 buck at 10 feet? I would say no more than my fist out of that gun. You fail to aim and you hit nothing vital.

Being part of being a gun owner is being proficient at it. It is no different that being proficient at driving if you own a JK.
"I only need to get close to staying in the yellow lines"



Now for home defense guns that are better: The one you shoot and shoot well. The one you handle well and reload quick. (what is the reload time of that judge?) I use my XD45, my AR or my AMD-65 AK. Why? Because I use the XD often and shoot very well with it, it also has a light to allow me to positively ID the target. My AR because I use it weekly and a LOT, it is second nature to me. And it has a light. My AK because the gun is made for me by me, it is almost part of me when I use it, accurate (don't laugh) and has a light.
But that is me, my wife's gun is a Bersa 9mm. Is it "less powerfull" than my XD? sure, but she can tack drive that 9mm and can not hit dick with my 45.


Now for the Judge:
I LOOOOVE the gun. I want one BADLY and will most likely get one this month. Not because of its 2 legged omnivore killing abilities but because of what it does well. It is an excellent camp gun and hiking gun. Loaded with birdshot it will get small game and eliminate snake problems. yes its a little heavy but loaded with some hot 45lc it will mangle most anything that threatens you on a trail be it 2 or 4 legs.
Out on a farm it will remove rodents or put down animals with no problems. It is a well rounded gun and fun to shoot.

Don't take this personally you just happened to be the first to post a complete combination of what I feel is misinformation. so sorry about the rant. :laughing:
But either way it is your gun and your life so make sure you do take criticism to heart when making your choice.

JKDoc
11-17-2009, 07:19 PM
I have not yet bought it, just shot it. I really appreciate your comments. They are well written and thoughtful. Now for my rebuttal which I hope will be as eloquent.

The laser. I've never had one on a weapon before and I am in absolute agreement that this is a crutch. However, I think it is a crutch that works. I was not considering the parallax error but this should be adjustable for the intended distance. I do believe this will make it easier for my wife to point (I know it is not aiming) in the right direction. I understand time at the range would be better but I do not see that happening. As for alerting the intruder to my wife's state of mind, that will not be in question. I just hope if the need ever arises for her to use this weapon that she will remember the 12 guage is next to the Judge to provide 5 more shots and that she should not hesitate to fire them all.

As for being underpowered, I can drop a deer with that load. I think the buckshot will do the job. I've read the "Box of Truth" test and if I can get six 000 shot in someones chest, I don't care if it does not go all the way through. It will kill. It is a lethal load. I have been told that my 38 is underpowered and I should upgrade to a 45. I don't want to rely on my 22 but even that will put you down. You point out that your wife is a much better shot with her 9mm and it is therefor a better gun for her. I think this pistol may be a better gun for my wife than the 38 I bought her a few years back. That is if she will pick it up and shoot it. If she will practice with it and be comfortable with it.

My intent is to use this as a camp gun, home defense gun, and motorhome gun. I don't believe it is a gimmic. I have not shot any 45s out of it but certainly believe they would be better than the slug but they will also penetrate straight through the coaches walls and possible enter areas I do not want them to. Thus my choice of loads.

As for my home defense weapon, I choose my Ithica shortbarrel 12 guage pump loaded with 2 Federal Home Defense load shells, 2 00 buck, and slug and backed by my S&W 38 special revolver. And I would be much better with both if I spent more time shooting and less time watching politics.

So much for my rambling. I might be better off buying a Malinoit to accompany my wife when I am away. I don't think she would ever pick up the gun to defend herself. Any advice as to how to get your spouse to turn into Annie Oakley?

usmcdoc14
11-17-2009, 07:36 PM
1) stop "stacking" loads in your shotgun. pick a round, stick with it. This way it behaves the same way every time, shoots the same every time and has the same point of impact every time.
You are not "progressing levels of threat or intent to kill" as you have already made that choice by puling the firearm in the first place.

First round should end the situation, the rest are just in case. :D

Any advice as to how to get your spouse to turn into Annie Oakley?

Give her something fun to shoot.
Bills, photos of public figures she hates, crap from the house or work that has pissed her off.
Reactive steel targets are fun, get her to complete against you for time and accuracy.

make it fun before you make it life or death.

JKDoc
11-17-2009, 07:48 PM
Good advice, again. I had always been told before to use the stacked loads (for what I do not know). Yes, first round should end the situation not just piss someone off.

As for giving her something fun to shoot at, I am not going to stand out in the field or run serpentine. She is stuck with targets.

Thanks.

sniper41
11-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Wow, all I'll say is I just saw it in Rifleman mag and it looked interesting. I've never used laser nor would I because I trust only my eyes when I shoot! But it does look like a neat little weapon.

usmcdoc14
11-17-2009, 08:17 PM
Wow, all I'll say is I just saw it in Rifleman mag and it looked interesting. I've never used laser nor would I because I trust only my eyes when I shoot! But it does look like a neat little weapon.

it is fun as hell :laughing: I am stuck what barrel I want right now.

Jaws
11-17-2009, 08:42 PM
Not to pis in your breakfast cereal of choice but...well lets start :laughing:
Your load up just proved that you want to end up dead is what it is. lets see
wound, wound,wound, wound, wound. You have the ability to run 45lc and END the situation but choose to instead risk your own death.
Your call.

You only need to get close.
The most retarded statement regarding shot gun type weapons ever. It is also the statement I hear often, right after "I rack it and that noise will make them shat" :laughing:
You need to AIM every weapon and aim it well. It will NOT clear half a room.
What is the spread of 000 buck at 10 feet? I would say no more than my fist out of that gun. You fail to aim and you hit nothing vital.

Being part of being a gun owner is being proficient at it. It is no different that being proficient at driving if you own a JK.
"I only need to get close to staying in the yellow lines"



Now for home defense guns that are better: The one you shoot and shoot well. The one you handle well and reload quick. (what is the reload time of that judge?) I use my XD45, my AR or my AMD-65 AK. Why? Because I use the XD often and shoot very well with it, it also has a light to allow me to positively ID the target. My AR because I use it weekly and a LOT, it is second nature to me. And it has a light. My AK because the gun is made for me by me, it is almost part of me when I use it, accurate (don't laugh) and has a light.
But that is me, my wife's gun is a Bersa 9mm. Is it "less powerfull" than my XD? sure, but she can tack drive that 9mm and can not hit dick with my 45.


Now for the Judge:
I LOOOOVE the gun. I want one BADLY and will most likely get one this month. Not because of its 2 legged omnivore killing abilities but because of what it does well. It is an excellent camp gun and hiking gun. Loaded with birdshot it will get small game and eliminate snake problems. yes its a little heavy but loaded with some hot 45lc it will mangle most anything that threatens you on a trail be it 2 or 4 legs.
Out on a farm it will remove rodents or put down animals with no problems. It is a well rounded gun and fun to shoot.

Don't take this personally you just happened to be the first to post a complete combination of what I feel is misinformation. so sorry about the rant. :laughing:
But either way it is your gun and your life so make sure you do take criticism to heart when making your choice.

Damn good advice!

The racking makes 'em run thing is one of my pet peeves as well, as is the notion that you don't need to aim a shotgun in hd situations.

Funny about the laser a swat cop told me the exact same thing.

JKDoc
11-17-2009, 09:24 PM
I never said you don't have to aim the gun to make it work. I said the laser may have my wife pointing it in the right direction. Not meaning to deride my wife but she is not a marksman. We are working on that. The 000 buck put 3 holes in the target in about a 10 inch circle at 12 feet. (I shot the #6 shotshells because I had them and wanted to compare to the 000.) It gets bigger quickly after that. This is not the gun to shoot at targets 50 feet away unless you are using the 45s (and the limited rifling probably decreases the accuracy of the 45). My shotgun shoots about a 6 inch pattern with buckshot at around 30 feet. The Judge handgun does place a wider pattern of shot than the shotgun and definitely more than my 38. It would be best to be perfectly accurate with everything you shoot but in a once in a lifetime, first time armed assault on your person, I expect that most of us will be shaking with adrenaline to the point that our accuracy will have degraded severely. Maybe not the case for those with military combat training or police training but very likely for the rest of us.

So, in my case, I'll take the given advice and stay with 000 buckshot or larger. I don't want to use the 45 because I don't want to have the bullet penetrating places it should not. I'll learn how to shoot the weapon and practice to make sure I don't forget.

edwin907
11-18-2009, 08:11 PM
[You only need to get close. The most retarded statement regarding shot gun type weapons ever. It is also the statement I hear often, right after "I rack it and that noise will make them shat"]

Yep, I love those statements.
Why not a grenade, it' even less critical of aim!
AND
All we need for protection is some sort of gizmo that makes a convincing racking the shotgun sound!

That gang-banger with a full auto AK and a full auto mac-10 will be trembling in his boots at that shotgun sound!
And yeah, you only have to get close, even if it's a battle hardened gangbanger with TWO full auto firearms!

TRAIN like it will be that gangbanger, who learned his trade in the Seals, then went sour in the drug trade business, and he's got the wrong house, but thinks he's putting a hit on some big dealer.

Discipline, noise, light, movement. TRAINING!
It's your turf, you should have a massive advantage here. You know the 6 month old's walker is in the hall, that there is motion sensor on the hall light, he doesn't!
Ambush him, utilize light and noise discipline and don't illuminate him until you're at the trigger break. You may have only a tenth of a second!

Unlike many, I feel a laser is great, particularly IR ones, but visible is good too, the instant before firing! If you TRAIN!
Can you hold your match 1911 at the trigger break while you engage the laser/light? If you can't, under stress, with your heart pounding, is it your usually drunk brother in law at 3AM, or is it the hit man, TRAIN!

You guys certainly see where I'm coming from.
Any equipment mastered is good, no, great!

Use the same pistol, the same carbine, the same shotgun, loaded the same way, with the same ammo, everytime for home defense.

I prefer an AR SBR, many prefer an auto pistol, and that many more prefer a shotgun. I know an older ex Special Forces guy, real combat veteran, and you know what he uses for home defense. A snub nosed detective model 5 shot 38 Special S&W with Crimson Trace laser grips.

For you guys, and I know that's 99.9% of you, the rest of you guys help me here, for you guys who have never been in this knife fight with guns struggle for survival at close range with some criminal who only wants to kill you NOW!
Well my advice is this: It is a hell of a lot worse than you can imagine.
It is a NIGHTMARE come to real life.
If you train the basics of aiming and shooting you will have a chance. If you train a lot. A lot! Not a trip to the range every 6 weeks with 500 rounds of ammo. But 6 trips a month with 20-30 rounds a trip. At least until you get comfortable.

If you rarely go, take this advice, you'll probably be better off if you play dead. At least in the case of the gangbanger/hit man.

Most of the guys/gals that break into your house won't be pros, won't be trained special forces types, probably won't even have a gun. You can be sucessful against these types even if you are a complete idiot, if you can pull the trigger.

TRAIN for the gangbanger!
TRAIN for the gangbanger!

Riverkid
11-18-2009, 09:41 PM
Not a trip to the range every 6 weeks with 500 rounds of ammo. But 6 trips a month with 20-30 rounds a trip. At least until you get comfortable.

And if you can't shoot, do some dry practice. One of the best drills without shooting is dry practice, so you know if you are mashing the trigger, or not. Nice view of the front sight, gentle squeeze, surprise when it breaks... Ensure you have a good sight picture through it all.

That can help out a TON as well...:smokin:

w squared
11-19-2009, 12:16 AM
USMCdoc14 makes some very good points.

For me, the correct home defense weapon is a short barreled AR...for the following reasons:

#1. I carried an AR professionally for years. Mag changes, stoppage drills, manipulating that selector switch - these are all reflex for me. When my frontal lobe is overloaded by stress and my lizard brain takes over, I may have a hard time manipulating the safety on my 870 or feeding additional rounds into the magazine. I know that won't happen with my AR.

#2. Stopping people. Any rifle or shotgun in a good caliber will do a better job at stopping a person bent on harming you than any pistol in a reasonable handgun caliber. In relation to a serious cartridge for elk or moose, that 5.56X45mm round is pretty anemic...but compared to a 5.56mmX45mm round, a .45 is pretty anemic. With good ammunition choices, that AR will stop badguys and won't overpenetrate as much as many other options.

It's also very unlikely that I'll only be putting one round into whomever decides to visit after dark. Years of conditioning to double tap don't go away in a hurry. A pair of Hornady TAP rounds will stop almost anyone. Even a 55grain softpoint would work in that situation.

#3. The body armour that is increasingly being worn by criminals involved in drug distribution will probably stop a conventional handgun round, but unless they're using trauma plates as well I doubt that it'll help much against a rifle round.

#4. I happen to have a light with enough lumens for "social occasions" on the front of my short AR. That way I can make 100% sure that the silhouette that I'm lined up on is actually someone intending to harm me...and not an unarmed kid that jimmied a window on a dare.

Failing that, I would switch to my S&W M&P (again with a light) because that's the pistol that I've put the most rounds through. While I wouldn't consider myself an accomplished pistol shooter, I don't have to look at what I'm doing in order to find the magazine release button or the slide catch release.

edwin907
11-19-2009, 10:57 AM
You guys can come stay with me when SHTF, then I could get some sleep!
ABC, attitude behavoir consequence. Whatever you do it must fit the ABC template.

Seriously, I've been there one time, thanks to my actions with a Colt 45 I lived to tell about it, and so did a buddy who took a shotgun blast in the side, although he nearly bled out, and then spent almost 2 months in the hospital. All because the perp wanted to steal his Corvette that we were riding in is the best we and the police could figure.
I was a pretty young guy, out of college, working for a living, divorced and not really seeing any gal, and I went to the indoor range a lot, couple times a week, usually with a friend.
That "training" saved my life as well as the life of my friend, although bystanders, particularly one ex-army medic, deserve more credit than me.

JKDoc
11-20-2009, 08:11 AM
Ok, I want to put to rest my poor choice of words, "With the Judge you only need to be close." I did not meen you can point it in the air and the bullets will magically find there way to the target. I know it requires accurate aiming to be effective. However, because of the additional pellets and spread, you could miss by three inches and still have an effective shot. As I said, the 000 buck placed three pellets in about a ten inch circle at 12 feet. I can aim for the chest and be pretty certain that is where the shot is going to go. It may not hit one inch between the left nipple and sternum but two pellets in the left lung and one in the right is ok.

I am not going to use a weapon in my motorhome that will kill my neighbor and the intruder with one shot. The energy carried by the 000 buck is sufficient to kill. I am not preparing for the former SEAL gone bad. I am looking to defend myself against the moron who drank too much and decides to make some quick money. I know I am toast against a body armor wearing assassin armed with a hundred rounds of everything. I do not believe I am that person's target.

About the laser. I am 56 years old and have five lenses in my glasses to correct astigmatism and old eyes. To focus on the sights, I have to angle my head back to put the image in the second lowest lens. In this position, everything past the barrel is a blur. I know you can't focus on the target and sights at the same time but for you young bucks, out of focus takes on a whole new meaning after 50. The laser helps me confirm my target. Yes, it is a crutch. So are my glasses.

I started this thread describing my experience and impression after shooting the Judge one morning. I still like it. I've read lots of reviews/responses regarding this weapon. I posted this thread here because when I searched, I found no specific info on it in our forum. I believe it will serve my purpose and fill my need. If you are in an area where you are facing assassins or gang bangers ( I am not), carry what you feel is necessary. I thank all for there input and opinions

jkracing37
11-23-2009, 05:45 PM
Any advice as to how to get your spouse to turn into Annie Oakley?

This is what worked for me, YMMV.

#1 - I told my wife that if someone broke into the house they are there to do bad things to her and the children. They are not there to ask for a can of beans and leave. Hearing that the kids would be in danger and without a gun she would be next to helpless against an attacker put the idea of shooting into new light for her.

#2 - With the child protection motivational flame lit the second hurdle was getting a gun in her hand that was comforatble for her. She has very small hands so it took a little time to find something that worked for her.

#3 - Finally it had to be a gun that she was comfortable with the recoil. Anything over a 38 / 9mm and she's not so keen on the idea for squeezing off more than a couple rounds. Those calibers and below she'll shoot all day long.

Again, that might not be the blueprint for your wife but hopefully you can take something useful from that.

09rubicon
11-23-2009, 07:47 PM
Not to pis in your breakfast cereal of choice but...well lets start :laughing:
Your load up just proved that you want to end up dead is what it is. lets see
wound, wound,wound, wound, wound. You have the ability to run 45lc and END the situation but choose to instead risk your own death.
Your call.

You only need to get close.
The most retarded statement regarding shot gun type weapons ever. It is also the statement I hear often, right after "I rack it and that noise will make them shat" :laughing:
You need to AIM every weapon and aim it well. It will NOT clear half a room.
What is the spread of 000 buck at 10 feet? I would say no more than my fist out of that gun. You fail to aim and you hit nothing vital.

Being part of being a gun owner is being proficient at it. It is no different that being proficient at driving if you own a JK.
"I only need to get close to staying in the yellow lines"



Now for home defense guns that are better: The one you shoot and shoot well. The one you handle well and reload quick. (what is the reload time of that judge?) I use my XD45, my AR or my AMD-65 AK. Why? Because I use the XD often and shoot very well with it, it also has a light to allow me to positively ID the target. My AR because I use it weekly and a LOT, it is second nature to me. And it has a light. My AK because the gun is made for me by me, it is almost part of me when I use it, accurate (don't laugh) and has a light.
But that is me, my wife's gun is a Bersa 9mm. Is it "less powerfull" than my XD? sure, but she can tack drive that 9mm and can not hit dick with my 45.


Now for the Judge:
I LOOOOVE the gun. I want one BADLY and will most likely get one this month. Not because of its 2 legged omnivore killing abilities but because of what it does well. It is an excellent camp gun and hiking gun. Loaded with birdshot it will get small game and eliminate snake problems. yes its a little heavy but loaded with some hot 45lc it will mangle most anything that threatens you on a trail be it 2 or 4 legs.
Out on a farm it will remove rodents or put down animals with no problems. It is a well rounded gun and fun to shoot.

Don't take this personally you just happened to be the first to post a complete combination of what I feel is misinformation. so sorry about the rant. :laughing:
But either way it is your gun and your life so make sure you do take criticism to heart when making your choice.

You hit the nail on the head with those two sentences. I am not going into a diatribe, but practice practice practice. I own many weapons, both pistols and rifles, and the one I keep for home defence is my SIG P239 .40. Now you can argue back and forth if there are better suited weapons (and there are), but that is not my point. My point is I have put several thousand rounds thru it, I can fire it accuratley off hand, cross body, one eye closed, from the hip, half asleep, etc. I can reload it blind or in complete darkness, I can tell if a round is chambered or at what **** it is by feel alone. I am completely confident and comfortable in my ability to fire that particular weapon in any situation. Thats why it is my home defense weapon!

Now when I get that comfortable with my USP 45 that may change, but for now it stays. Oh yeah, I have made the wife put about 1k rounds thru it as well so she can be confident in it if the time ever comes (that and it fits her smaller hands well, that alone may keep it as the primary home defense weapon).

JKDoc
12-04-2009, 07:12 PM
We, Good Wife and I, are taking an NRA handgun course this month. As part of the course we will fire several different types of handguns. I hope my wife gets comfortable with holding a hangun.

09Rubicon, I am never going to make my wife do anything she does not want to do and right now that includes shooting pistol rounds. I even dug out my old Daisy air pistol to let her try shooting BBs. No recoil, not loud, easy. No dice. We will see how things go after the class. Not sure why she no longer cares to shoot. She used to enjoy firing our Hi Standard 22 revolver. Now, nothing.

09rubicon
12-11-2009, 03:44 PM
I didn't have to force her, she loves to go shooting, but I did put an emphasis on that particular gun because it was the primary home defense weapon.

JKDoc
12-13-2009, 05:00 PM
We finished the class (NRA Beginner Handgun Course) and had a great day! Good Wife had the opportunity to try a variety of handguns (all dry fire). Became more comfortable with handling the guns and shot quite well in our shooting session. She shot a S&W 22 revolver (big revolver) and placed all her shots onto a sheet of 8.5x11 paper. They were not a tight little group but all were in the chest from 25 feet. I was very proud of her. The instructor told her the shots were all where it counted. She liked that and I believe we may be at the range tomorrow trying some more guns. She had a lot of trouble with the semi-autos. Could not load that first shell. More a problem of technique than strength I believe. Try, try, again. She may be revolver kind of woman.